[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

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Originally Posted by Ch@os

So is there no aggro in Mannheim?
The last german tourneys were really aggro infested, so i wonder how you pull off some wins with only some edicts.

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I can always pull off wins with Threshold. That's why I play it. It has 50% against everything and a few bad matchups.

But you have a point, the problematic Aggros (i.E. Zoo Aggro) are not very popular in Mannheim. I guess the deck which was the closest to Zoo Aggro was that Exalted T2 Pile from Match 2.

But the surprising thing is that tribal aggro is actually not difficult, even with Edicts (especially with maindeck Explosives). You can comfortably overextend with Dark Confidant and have EEs as backup plan if he should really start to overwhelm you.

But let's see, maybe I'll play it again on Sunday at Hassloch for that I can say more about it.

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Standstill is probably the card that is completely the opposite to the gameplan of Tempo Threshold

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I agree. This deck wanna play fast not hit a standstill
to the table and wait until your opponent gets manabase, handfull of threads
and full hand of counters or some good cards anyway.

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It therefore should also not play real hard counters like Counterspell since it is not the purpose of the deck to get to lategame. Counterspell really gets effective for Tempo Threshold at mid-late game probably. There are a lot of other arguments why Counterspell should not be included in Tempo Threshold, but I'll not mention them, if you don't mind, since they are pretty obvious.

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You wont win this game in round 1-5 or even 5-10 and if you will it is very
rare. In a last tournament there was almost in every game a moment when
I really hope that my spell snare, daze or spike could be a counterspell
cause there are good decks and they will survive to round 10 or later so
hardcounters are needed. And why you wont mention them? :laugh:

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Ok, serious. Give arguments why you want to fit in Counterspell. I'm curious
why you want to play Counterspell

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Ok, there are a lot of situations when you really wanna have counterspell
in your hand and sure situations when you dont even wanna see it for
examble in opening hand but do you really wanna see 2 fire/ice in your
opening hand or 2 spell snare? There are other cards too than just
counterbalance, tarmogoyf, dark confidant and few merfoks that
makes your winning harder I mean all the bad cards doesnt cost 2cc
so what you gonna do at round 7 or 8 when your opponent has 4-6
lands and you have handful of dazes, spikes and spell snares (hopefully you
dont have these all) I know that you have FoWs for hard cards and
couple of bounce for saving you but I think someone should try and
test couple of counterspells. I played 2 in my maindeck but I really
wanted spikes to this deck and it is quite hard to get room for counterspells.
Everyone knows that this deck is very powerful in first 1 to 8 rounds
or something but when game goes to mid-game you really dont have cards
for that. We know that counterspell is hard to cast too but it is as hard
as fire/ice. I think counterspell coulb be one good "answer" for those
bad cards that you cant counter with daze, snare or spike, you cant
burn them and you dont have river for bounce them.
I dunno is there really room for counterspells but in my mind it looks
nice and powerful card sure it depends what is againts to you and
what is your playing style, what cards you have already in your hand
and is there sunny or cloudy. :laugh:

So what is the usual agreement about Tempo Threshold's matchup against Merfolk? Some say island walk, game over. Others say, burn all of their creatures and kill them with an abundance of Goyfs. In my own experience the matchup isn't as one sided as that. When Merfolk gets one of it's good starts with first turn Aether Vial with counter backup followed up with Standstill / Wasteland I feel that it's hard to win. Furthermore they got quite a lot of backbreaking cards for us, such as Relic of Progenitus, Back to Basics and Jitte can also be quite a big problem as it forces you to treat even Cursecatcher as a real threat in case they resolve one. If I get a burn heavy hand I often even let resolve Jitte despite having the opportunity to counter it because I feel that I can handle all of their creatures. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. What do you think about this?

And how do you feel about the Counterbalance + Top matchups, such as UGW Threshold, Probasco.dec and Nassif.dec?

I did some testing against those and felt that it was an uphill battle most of thetime. Against Nassif.dec I could only win by riding an early Nimble Mongoose to the win or if I could cut him of at least one color with my Wasteland / Stifle which proved to be quite difficult with them having access to Brainstorm / Top. So I began to counter the tops and the Brainstorms (those only if I could Daze them). But then I was lacking counters for their bombs like Counterbalance, Shackles. Do you think that boarding out Tarmogoyf might be the way to go against those decks? What would your boarding be like with the standard SB?

Against UGW Threshold I felt much more comfortable because they most of my opponents were struggling hard to get anything going and Pridemage sucks because he can neither trade with Goose nor Goyf and I always tried to be the agressor in this matchup. Especially builds running Noble Hierarch were quite easy.

The Probasco the deck however was the suck for me. I failed at winning a single match out of our first ten matches. After I had learned how to play the matchup properly it became better and I had to mulligan a lot in those 10 matches but I still feel really uncomfortable in this matchup as I simply fail at cutting them off their green sources about 90% of the time because this deck got a very good manabase.

Then I still got some general questions about gameplay.

Unknown opponent, you are on the play. You can play Ponder, Mongoose or keep mana open for stifle. What's your play?

I feel that the sideboard has too many cards I want to board in in several matchups while I lack anything to put into my maindeck but some of the 1-offs in other matchups. For example in the mirror match my boarding so far is:

+4 Submerge
+4 Pyroblast
+4 Disrupt
+1 Engineered Explosives

-4 Lightning Bolt
-3 Fire/ice
-2 Bounce
-4 Force of Will

But actually, thats random and bullshit to tell the least. What are you boarding? Should I even bring in my Red Elemental Blasts at all?

How would you Sideboard against Dreadstill Ur and Urg?

random opponent, always keep mana for stifle, if they don't got a fetch, oh well, if they do, then you're in the $.

the matchup is very bad preboard for you vs all cb/top style decks. they usually run 20 lands, so wasteland/stifle only goes so far.
stp > goyfs and your only hope for a mongoose to get there is if they don't draw a goyf of their own.
mongoose IS the most important card in your deck vs nassif.dec, followed by the ever amazing fire/ice since it kills both sower and dark confidants.
sower is almost a dead card vs you unless you have a goyf out.
same w/ shackles.

i tested gooba's list vs ugw (older) thresh w/ predicts and its probably around 45/55 for us.

spell snare the goyf is usually better than spell snare the cb.
always force of will top.

Bleh, force of will a top on the draw. One daze and you can already pack your back and go home.
Personally, I think that Merfolk is ok. It is close but it's ok. They can't do anything about your goyf so thats all you got :D. Lightning Bolt and especially Fire/Ice are the cards you want to see the most I guess. However it totally depends on the 7 cards your opponent gets. If your opponent has the nuts, well it becomes really really hard. If he has a normal hand, your chances are way better.
LoA is not really that big of a problem, Aether Vial is. If that card hits the table it becomes so much harder to beat Merfolk. However, it's just 4 out of 60 cards. The chances they have it all the time is fairly small.
My sideboard gives:
4 Pyroblast
2/3 Pithing Needle
2/3 Pyroclasm

So I think postboard is much better for me. Arround 60-65% at the max still, but it is enough.
Another thing is that my build has more counters to stop Vial when I'm on the play and more counters to stop standstill and/or other lords. 3 Force Spike help a lot in this matchup, more than you would expect.

UGW(B) Threshold decks are a pain in the ass. Their Sensei's Divining Top is a card that basically ruins your deck. The dice-roll is pretty important for my deck. This enables you to Stifle their Fetch, Force Spike their Sensei's Divining Top, Dazing their Cantrip and so on. Another hugh problem is Swords to Plowshares, since they simply always have an answer for your Tarmogoyf and ofcourse the most dreadful card: Counterbalance.
You probably have like 15% chance when the card hits the table connected with a Sensei's Divining Top, even with a bounce in your deck. Simply because you can't use your Cantrips to find it.
However, Tarmogoyf will not be boarded out. You are simply to afraid of theirs. A combination of Submerge and Pyroblast are probably the way to board. I'm not sure how much of each card, I still need to test that.

About the gameplan:

Keep mana open for Stifle. The best way to do it is, since your opponent does not expect it: Play Wooded Foothills and go.
Then play Ponder at turn 2. Drop a land and say go.
Then at turn 3: Play Nimble and say go.

This is normally how I would play against nearly any Legacy deck. Keeping mana open = Good Game.

I personally just need a lot of testing, since my mainboard has been changed into Force Spike's. When I know more, I'll share my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

Bleh, force of will a top on the draw. One daze and you can already pack your back and go home.
Personally, I think that Merfolk is ok. It is close but it's ok. They can't do anything about your goyf so thats all you got :D. Lightning Bolt and especially Fire/Ice are the cards you want to see the most I guess. However it totally depends on the 7 cards your opponent gets. If your opponent has the nuts, well it becomes really really hard. If he has a normal hand, your chances are way better.
LoA is not really that big of a problem, Aether Vial is. If that card hits the table it becomes so much harder to beat Merfolk. However, it's just 4 out of 60 cards. The chances they have it all the time is fairly small.
My sideboard gives:
4 Pyroblast
2/3 Pithing Needle
2/3 Pyroclasm

So I think postboard is much better for me. Arround 60-65% at the max still, but it is enough.
Another thing is that my build has more counters to stop Vial when I'm on the play and more counters to stop standstill and/or other lords. 3 Force Spike help a lot in this matchup, more than you would expect.

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Before M10 I loved to play against merfolk, as they couldn't do much about the Mungos and burn + Sideboarded cards were totally sufficient to smash them.

However, I tested against the new brew of Merfolk featuring the full 12 lords yesterday, and man, that deck is a pain in the a$$. Sure, by cutting Stifles it lacks the tempo-part of Merfolk, but they have a very fast clock supported by very efficient countermagic as well as Vials + Standstills. Everyone should test that matchup as this sort of Merfolk will become quite popular in my opinion. Every land becomes crucial, Dazing something hurts, and a single Wasteland can spell doom on us. To be honest, it was not a nice testing session. :(

About the merfolk matchup : it is quite horrible.
Post-sb Mongoose is pretty dead thanks to relic of progenitus. I've tried all configurations, from null rods to pithing needles.

It remains quite horrible. With the new lords, mongoose just doesn't get there. They have easy access to a three power creature. Goyf could get there in multiples on rare occasions, but often lacked strength due to relic or was stolen away by mind harness.

So I turned things around. The dreadnought sb :

4 Phyrexian dreadnought
1 Trickbind
3 Red elemental blast
1 Pyroclasm
2 Firespout
2 Tormod's crypt
2 Krosan grip

Sb strategy against all decks that bring in relic :
Take out 4 Nimble mongoose, Get in the dreadnoughts

Last tournament almost all my wins postboard were dreadnought wins.

It's easy, it's fast and it scares the hell out of your opponent when you announce to play it. Who cares about relic?

Try it I would say.

Eh I dont know if the Naught board is a great idea if you MD 2 cliques. The simple fact is that relic isnt THAT bad for us, especialy with clique. The reason clique is so good is that once resolved its basicaly a 6 turn unstopable clock that prevents disruption and ships a lord away. The bottom line is keep LOA off the board and your golden because if they have to crack a relic (possible to make them do it too) you can blow them way out with a stifle.

My MD is cnadaian thresh -2 bounce +2 clique (more dudes is good)

My SB is

2 REB
2 Pyroblast
3 Pryoclasm
2 Grip
2 Predator
4 submerge

I could cut 1 submerge for something (possibly an alternate win condition such as clique) or possibly even REB 5.

I'm not sure what all this fuss is about when going over the merfolk matchup. I don't even have to board against this matchup because it is such a joke, its not even funny. If you are playing canadian threshold, your main deck is set up so well against it, basically anything they play just dies with all the removal that we pack.

In game 2, we get access to red blasts/pyroclams/submerges to make the matchup even better. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, I'm not sure why you guys think merfolk is so bad. One of the best matchups by far for the deck.

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

I'm not sure what all this fuss is about when going over the merfolk matchup. I don't even have to board against this matchup because it is such a joke, its not even funny. If you are playing canadian threshold, your main deck is set up so well against it, basically anything they play just dies with all the removal that we pack.

In game 2, we get access to red blasts/pyroclams/submerges to make the matchup even better. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, I'm not sure why you guys think merfolk is so bad. One of the best matchups by far for the deck.

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submerge is not even good unless they are playing the goyf folk list.
yeah its pretty easy if they don't get a crazy draw and you see a few fire/ice and bolts.
i never had a problem vs merfolk either.

The regular lists are not problematic at all. The lists with 12 lords are, at least in my experience so far, as Fire / Ice isn't enough to kill a lord quickly, and Goose only trades with a fish instead of killing it.

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Originally Posted by Blitzbold

The regular lists are not problematic at all. The lists with 12 lords are, at least in my experience so far, as Fire / Ice isn't enough to kill a lord quickly, and Goose only trades with a fish instead of killing it.

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I have not seen a list with 12 lords do anything because those lists are just not as good which is probably the main reason I haven't run into it. Regardless, after game 1 I have 4 Lightning bolts, 4 Fire/Ice, 4 Pyroblast/RED, 1 EE, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Krosan Grip. I don't see how you would not think this matchup is not only easy but a joke. The matchup is something like 80/20 if not better.

You just burn their creatures and let goose or goyf go the distance against them. Don't forget that we also have wasteland to neutralize there mutavaults which is also very important.

If you want to discuss harder matchups, I'm all ears. After Gencon, I found out how much survival elves, merfolk, goblins, and combo is so easy, its basically a bye.

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

I have not seen a list with 12 lords do anything because those lists are just not as good which is probably the main reason I haven't run into it. Regardless, after game 1 I have 4 Lightning bolts, 4 Fire/Ice, 4 Pyroblast/RED, 1 EE, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Krosan Grip. I don't see how you would not think this matchup is not only easy but a joke. The matchup is something like 80/20 if not better.

You just burn their creatures and let goose or goyf go the distance against them. Don't forget that we also have wasteland to neutralize there mutavaults which is also very important.

If you want to discuss harder matchups, I'm all ears. After Gencon, I found out how much survival elves, merfolk, goblins, and combo is so easy, its basically a bye.

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What you guys side in against survival, 4c or ugb version? Grip is quite obvious but how about that pyroclasm? Do you think that is needed or do we hang around just with maindeck burn? And EE, that would be usefull too, yes? And what to side out?

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

I have not seen a list with 12 lords do anything because those lists are just not as good which is probably the main reason I haven't run into it. Regardless, after game 1 I have 4 Lightning bolts, 4 Fire/Ice, 4 Pyroblast/RED, 1 EE, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Krosan Grip. I don't see how you would not think this matchup is not only easy but a joke. The matchup is something like 80/20 if not better.

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Try reading last pages of Merfolk thread. Anyways, I also think Merfolk is favourable to Canadian lists.

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Originally Posted by Atog

What you guys side in against survival, 4c or ugb version? Grip is quite obvious but how about that pyroclasm? Do you think that is needed or do we hang around just with maindeck burn? And EE, that would be usefull too, yes? And what to side out?

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Survival Elves: + 1 Grip, +1 EE, +1 Pyroclasm, +4 Submerge (MVP). - 2 Bounce, - 4 Stifle (its usually 2 colors), -1 Ponder

4 color Survival: basically the same but leave the stifles in since they are more important since they are playing just about all non-basics and more fetches. I would board out ponders, and one fire/ice.

Its a tempo game and you always want to have mana up against them, thats why I would say cut the ponders if you are leaving in the stifles.

Regarding Merfolk, I don't care what people are talking about in there thread but if they wish to play all 12 lords in there deck, then they will be doing consistenly worse in tournaments because they don't be able to play a lot of there good utility creatures like that do now.

I think Merfolk will go away a little when people realize all you have to do is to play red and you beat the deck. It's sometimes just that easy.

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

Survival Elves: + 1 Grip, +1 EE, +1 Pyroclasm, +4 Submerge (MVP). - 2 Bounce, - 4 Stifle (its usually 2 colors), -1 Ponder

4 color Survival: basically the same but leave the stifles in since they are more important since they are playing just about all non-basics and more fetches. I would board out ponders, and one fire/ice.

Its a tempo game and you always want to have mana up against them, thats why I would say cut the ponders if you are leaving in the stifles.

Regarding Merfolk, I don't care what people are talking about in there thread but if they wish to play all 12 lords in there deck, then they will be doing consistenly worse in tournaments because they don't be able to play a lot of there good utility creatures like that do now.

I think Merfolk will go away a little when people realize all you have to do is to play red and you beat the deck. It's sometimes just that easy.

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Thanks for your reply! How about merfolk? I thought something like this:

- 4x Daze
- 1x Spell Snare
- 1x Stifle
- 1x Ponder

+ 4x REB/Pyroblast
+ 1x Pyroclasm
+ 1x EE
+ 1x Krosan grip

Or should i side out bounces instead of Spell Snare and Stifle..?

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Originally Posted by Atog

Thanks for your reply! How about merfolk? I thought something like this:

- 4x Daze
- 1x Spell Snare
- 1x Stifle
- 1x Ponder

+ 4x REB/Pyroblast
+ 1x Pyroclasm
+ 1x EE
+ 1x Krosan grip

Or should i side out bounces instead of Spell Snare and Stifle..?

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Why would you board out Daze in this matchup? Stifle is way worse. I'd advice you people to try Needle as a 3-off in the sideboard. It's really a strong card in the Merfolk matchup, is very good against Landstill and probably very boardable against CbTopThresh. You fear Top more than anything playing against that deck.

Edit: Nickrit, what the hell? My team has tested Tempo Thresh vs. Goblins for probably over 100 games. We're pretty sure the matchup is about even. Also, Tempo Thresh certainly doesn't have a bye against any form of combo. I'm pretty sure ANT lists can get close to 50/50 and slower Doomsday variants are positive against Tempo Thresh.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Why would you board out Daze in this matchup? Stifle is way worse. I'd advice you people to try Needle as a 3-off in the sideboard. It's really a strong card in the Merfolk matchup, is very good against Landstill and probably very boardable against CbTopThresh. You fear Top more than anything playing against that deck.

Edit: Nickrit, what the hell? My team has tested Tempo Thresh vs. Goblins for probably over 100 games. We're pretty sure the matchup is about even. Also, Tempo Thresh certainly doesn't have a bye against any form of combo. I'm pretty sure ANT lists can get close to 50/50 and slower Doomsday variants are positive against Tempo Thresh.

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Stifle just hits their wasteland and can be useful sometime then they try use vial in response for pyroclasm example. I could be wrong about that, i just need to test that way too, haven't do that yet.

What you take away from Caplan's sideboard if you put 3x needles in? Or what's your sideboard is looking like?

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Originally Posted by Atog

Stifle just hits their wasteland and can be useful sometime then they try use vial in response for pyroclasm example. I could be wrong about that, i just need to test that way too, haven't do that yet.

What you take away from Caplan's sideboard if you put 3x needles in? Or what's your sideboard is looking like?

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The situations you list don't matter at all. Stifle is too dead to stay in.

My board is usually:
4 Blast
4 Submerge
3 Needle
2 Clasm
2 Grip

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Edit: Nickrit, what the hell? My team has tested Tempo Thresh vs. Goblins for probably over 100 games. We're pretty sure the matchup is about even. Also, Tempo Thresh certainly doesn't have a bye against any form of combo. I'm pretty sure ANT lists can get close to 50/50 and slower Doomsday variants are positive against Tempo Thresh.

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There is no way that the goblin matchup is 50/50. The matchup is at least 60/40 in Canadian Threshold favor. I've not lost this matchup yet even though some of the games are fairly close. When 2 pyroclasms come in after game 1 it just gets better not worse.

The ANT decks can win, but yet again its not even close to 50/50. The tempo decks are actually a worse matchup for ANT than the CB decks. If I make it to my turn 1, they have not won a game against me. This is why we have disrupt in the board, b/c it basically makes this matchup not winnable for them.

If you are losing to these matchups, then something is wrong because these are very good matchups. I worry about the bad matchups such as 43 land, stax, trainwreck, aggro loam, and enchantress.