[Archetype] CounterTop

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

@Jak: First of all, this is the Counter-Top forum, not threshold forum.

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I think you missed the part where I said I am adding CB to make it competitive. You should learn to read through everything. And if my knowledge is correct, Counter Top derived from Threshold. I fail to see how running Nimble Mongoose comletely changes the deck now.

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Secondly, you don't have counter-top at all.

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Read above.

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Thirdly, a single Relic of Progenitus / Crypt will hose the shit out of your deck.

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Really?

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Finally, Enforcer is just too much for too little. His Pro-Black doesn't stop Swords, Shackles or Sower from messing him up and Zoo will laugh at your lack of mana denial / counter-top to slow them down so you can actually play him. Goose is good in Tempo Thresh since you can disrupt your opponents mana and let the wild goose go to town, but without a means to slow your opponent down he's not nearly as good, and many creatures quickly overshadow him.This isn't Pre-Tarmogoyf era anymore: many creatures will come out (since you lack the two popular strats) and just take a shit on the goose.

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Ah, so Enforcer is too much mana but Sower is fine (people do run Sower). The card is a pro black Goyf with flying. It breaks stalemates.

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Also, Counter-Top doesn't mesh well with Goose since that is 8 less permanents going into your yard.

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Yet I am running less creatures. I am running 33 cards that will end up in the GY. Not that bad.

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I've tried at tournaments, but it isn't viable to make a tier-1 blue aggro-control deck without Wasteland/Stifle or Counter-Top. Those builds are just that powerful. I'm not trying to be an ass, but classic-Threshold died out for a reason.

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Again, you should learn to read through everything.

I like how you took the time to respond but seriously, come on. The list posted is all for nostalgia but I did say that would have Counterbalance in the same posted and made the actual changes.

To add some real constructive criticism to the mix, I'll echo some of the thoughts of Drago. In today's metagame, the traditional forms of thresh from the bygone era can't compete. There are simply too many additional things thrown in the mix.

Zoo will beat you, between their cheap threats, their MD removal for CB, etc. This type of deck was developed as a reaction to the dominance of your thresh/CB deck.

More modern CB decks will be able to play around your weak "3 hole." Consider that Shackles and RWM will slip through, and that many play better CA engines (Bob/Shackles/Sower) to stop you from outpacing them, and it's a struggle.

I mean, I played UGw Thresh forever. I was pretty much the only one playing it for a while, long after the metagame had evolved past it. The fact is, nostalgia is the only thing you're viewing the deck with - if you look at it objectively, it's missing most of the things that make the tier 1 decks as powerful as they are today.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

I think you missed the part where I said I am adding CB to make it competitive. You should learn to read through everything. And if my knowledge is correct, Counter Top derived from Threshold. I fail to see how running Nimble Mongoose comletely changes the deck now.

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Actually, that's why people DON'T run goose: he doesn't change much in your typical non-mana denial deck.

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Read above.

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I did...

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Really?

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Between Crypt and Relic, it's easy for decks that want to screw you over at the wrong time to do so. Furthermore, it'll take a good 4-5 turns minimum before you hit Threshold again.

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Ah, so Enforcer is too much mana but Sower is fine (people do run Sower). The card is a pro black Goyf with flying. It breaks stalemates.

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Sower also ends stalemates by grabbing someones creature and beating them senseless with it.

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Yet I am running less creatures. I am running 33 cards that will end up in the GY. Not that bad.

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You settle for "not that bad"? I only settle for "optimal".

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Again, you should learn to read through everything.

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Shouldn't you be following your own advice? You say I didn't read but I made mention of counterbalance, yet your first part said otherwise...

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I like how you took the time to respond but seriously, come on. The list posted is all for nostalgia but I did say that would have Counterbalance in the same posted and made the actual changes.

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If it's all for nostalgia, go post it in the developing forums or something. If you have a Counter-Top list, post it. All I'm saying is that the two Threshold creatures you are using are no longer optimal in Counter-Top decks anymore.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Actually, that's why people DON'T run goose: he doesn't change much in your typical non-mana denial deck.

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I don't understand what you are saying here. The reason I like Goose is because it gives you a turn one threat that is good against control and can be big against aggro.

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I did...

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Okay, so you read where I said I have Counterbalance in the list to make it competitive.

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Between Crypt and Relic, it's easy for decks that want to screw you over at the wrong time to do so. Furthermore, it'll take a good 4-5 turns minimum before you hit Threshold again.

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I'm not saying they won't hurt Mongoose or Enforcer, but that in no way invalidates these creatures.

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Sower also ends stalemates by grabbing someones creature and beating them senseless with it.

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Against other aggro control decks... Against decks like Goblins, Elves, Merfolk, and Zoo it sucks. Enforcer can end a stalemate of a Goyf facing down two Nacatls or three goblins by flying over.

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You settle for "not that bad"? I only settle for "optimal".

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You are seriously resorting to this? Old Threshold builds without Counter Top ran about 35 cards that would go to the yard. I run 33. It works fine.

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Shouldn't you be following your own advice? You say I didn't read but I made mention of counterbalance, yet your first part said otherwise...

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'Yet your first post said otherwise'... How did my first post say "otherwise" to you mentioning Counterbalance? How does what you said make sense?

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If it's all for nostalgia, go post it in the developing forums or something. If you have a Counter-Top list, post it. All I'm saying is that the two Threshold creatures you are using are no longer optimal in Counter-Top decks anymore.

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I posted it for nostalgia, but I strongly feel the creatures used are competitive and the list isn't meant to be casual. There is no optimal Counterbalance deck so stop throwing the word around.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

I posted it for nostalgia, but I strongly feel the creatures used are competitive and the list isn't meant to be casual. There is no optimal Counterbalance deck so stop throwing the word around.

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Feel free to do so, but I feel otherwise. I feel that the abundant yard hate truly holds them back(Enforcer at least).

Thinking about switching from tempo thresh back to counter top. I can build whatever build I need but the question for me is do you play a basic forest since you can play 4 misty rain forests?

2 island
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 underground sea
2 misty rainforest
2 Scalding tarn
2 Flooded strand
2 Polluted delta (basicaly 8 blue fetches, whatever)

4 Counterbalance
4 Top

4 Goyf
4 Bob
2 Sower
1 Rhox war monk
1 Trygon predator

1 Krosan grip
3 daze
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
2 ponder
4 swords to plowshares
2 Shackles

SB
3 Rhox war monk
2 Quasli pridemage
1 Krosan grip
3 EE
1 Jitti
2 Pithing needle
3 Relic of the progenist

What does every one think? Is war monk better in the main than predator? Monk is the stone cold nuts vs zoo and defending him-> game win vs most aggro decks.

Also what does every one think of 1 volc and 3 firespout in the board? Or is that just foolish.

And is the japanese list with 4 goyf 4 RWM 2 predator and 3-4 spouts better or worse than the black list with bob?

I would like to have a discussion on the japanese sideboarding.

I was watching his final match against ichorid and noticed he sided in relics, grips, and teegs, but chose not to side in engineered explosives, but did not see the massive amount of cards he would have to have sideboarded out.

What is the sideboard strategy usually look like for the japanese list? What cards are you usually ok to side out? Obviously firespout against many decks is the correct choice. Can you side out the creatures, or do you need them as win cons so they are too important? Against what decks do you side out the counterbalance engine, since the japanese list has 10 3cc cards?

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

I would like to have a discussion on the japanese sideboarding.

I was watching his final match against ichorid ...

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can you link to the videos...? did you actually watch this live?

they are on youtube...just search

japanese legacy championship 2009

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Originally Posted by sauce

can you link to the videos...? did you actually watch this live?

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWi9a...e=channel_page

I will reiterate my question, which is better the warmonk-> spout version or Nassifs version. Also as the japenese list if you need to sweep 0 your losing and what would come out for it on top of that? I guess it should come in as grip #X but still, EEing tokens typicaly means they are miles ahead.

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Originally Posted by undone

I will reiterate my question, which is better the warmonk-> spout version or Nassifs version.

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You sound like you want life handed to you on a platter.

Depends on your meta. More decks with lots of little dudes and burn, warmonk. More blue decks, confidant.

I was just asking jeeze. I didnt know if that cool singelton side board made it better than the spout version vs aggro (as it boards in 1 dark blast 1 Jitti 1 threads 1 enlightened tutor 1 EE 1 Hydro blast 1 BEB and maby another couble cards)

Are you able to just drop predators and sowers to play warmonks from nassifs list or is that a poor plan vs aggro?

the singleton sideboard was more of a joke than anything else and he admitted it...i would seriously suggest a real sideboard based on your expected meta

no comment on predator and sower...i dislike them in my build and don't run them currently

and using ee doesn't necessarily mean you are behind and losing...against dredge/ichorid/whatever-it's-called you can nuke their tokens it serves very good...and in the odd matchup it kills empty the warren goblins tokens...and it's also decent against countertop where you can ramp the cost to 3 or 4 (generally out of counterbalance range) and nuke whatever permanent # cost you choose

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Originally Posted by psu42

the singleton sideboard was more of a joke than anything else and he admitted it...i would seriously suggest a real sideboard based on your expected meta

no comment on predator and sower...i dislike them in my build and don't run them currently

and using ee doesn't necessarily mean you are behind and losing...against dredge/ichorid/whatever-it's-called you can nuke their tokens it serves very good...and in the odd matchup it kills empty the warren goblins tokens...and it's also decent against countertop where you can ramp the cost to 3 or 4 (generally out of counterbalance range) and nuke whatever permanent # cost you choose

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Really? I could sware his comment was "There were just so many good cards I wanted in my SB so I played them all"

In any event predator and sower seem really, really clunky in the deck, predator has a use but sower feels like its terrible in every matchup but merfolk

Sower is a LOT better when counterbalance is in play because every relevant legacy removal spell is hit hard by it. And yes, I've heard of snuff out.

Just remember that Nassif's deck was built to beat the mirror (as was Probasco's). That's why cards like trygon, sower, shackles, and confidant are there.

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Originally Posted by undone

I was just asking jeeze. I didnt know if that cool singelton side board made it better than the spout version vs aggro (as it boards in 1 dark blast 1 Jitti 1 threads 1 enlightened tutor 1 EE 1 Hydro blast 1 BEB and maby another couble cards)

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Nassif's GP sideboard was sort of a joke, but also completely functional.

For reference:
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Burrenton Forge-tender
1 Darkblast
1 Engineered Plague
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Energy Flux
1 Hydroblast
1 Kataki, War’s Wage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Perish
1 Planar Void
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Which is practically:

4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Path to Exile
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
1 Enlightened Tutor

I would disagree in that the dark blast seem enormously relivant vs goblins, merfolk and any decks playing bob+goyf. Its also better than a path because you can consistentaly hit x/2s with it and its especialy good if you have a bob out. So I dont think darkblast=path. Perish is also largely differant in that it sweeps bants board and hits shroud guys and on top of that it hits that annoying 10/10.

Also The more I play with

1 crypt
1 relic
1 planar void

the more I am finding out that its almost always better than 3 of any one of those. This is because the hate for each is pretty differant and if they board in anti hate (ichorid specificaly) it doesnt work as well. I think my take on the board would be

1 crypt
1 relic
1 Planar void
1 Threads of disloyalty
2 darkblast
2 Hydroblast
2 BEB
1 Enlightened tutor
2 Engeneered plauge
1 Jitti
1 Perish

Or something close. Alot of these are hugely relivant over alternatives because Plauge is pretty insane vs goblins, jitti is fantastic (and another out in the burn matchup) and your choices overall are just very stable with a better board than most. I was considering dropping predators from the main for Rhox war monks but that would mean adding a grip and a predator to the board.

It seems like beating merfolk might be very hard so I dk if I would run this at a major event without some serious merfolk hate.

Mainboard:
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Confidant
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Putrefy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Smother
4 Stifle
3 Thoughtseize

Does anyone think UBG Countertop is the way to go. It seems to me this is the only list that has been putting up any results. I def think this version has a better way of beating zoo decks and merfolk decks, on the count of the sideboard options. Plus now that there are 10 fetch lands the 4 stifles will def help anymore, with less moon affects around wasteland is better in this deck aswell. I'm not too sure on the Dazes in the deck, I never liked them in CounterTop lists. Any thoughts on this?

Combining Wasteland + Stifle with Countertop was never such a great idea. It's just too much the deck can handle.

Having white gives a lot of good cards with it aswell:
Qasali Pridemage (This card is just insane, got nothing more to say)
Swords to Plowshares (Better than Smother)
Rhox War Monk (Insane against Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins etc.)

And Gaddock teeg in sideboard (helps you against many decks: Staxx, Landstill, even ANT is worth to board them in)

Not having white just seems as a non-optimal list. But that's just my opinion.