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Just seems like a completely suboptimal situation though, and that's why I say grave hate essentially makes PFire garbage. You either hold it until you get two Groves down or let it sit in the yard until you find the second one.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
By that argument, Loam is terrible in the deck. You either hold it until you have enough mana and cycle lands or hope they don't have GY hate. Oh, except that you can protect Fires from Extirpate, but you can't protect Loam from Extirpate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Are you saying that there's the same likelihood of getting 2 Groves (out of a max of 4, but more likely 2) into play as there is of holding 1 out of 6+ cycling lands? Or are you trying to suggest that Punishing Fire is somehow better than Loam because it can dodge one hate card? Because by that argument, every card in the deck is worse than Punishing Fire except basic lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
I'm saying it is ridiculous to say that grave hate makes Fires garbage when it is stronger against GY hate than anything else GY based (Loam, Knight, Goyf, etc...) in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Let me rephrase then. 1R to do 2 damage is garbage. 1RR +1 life to do 2 damage/turn is good. 1RRR + 2 life to do 2 damage/turn postboard is garbage.
I actually like Grove/Fires, I just don't think Aggro Loam is the best place for it. The deck's overall reliance on the graveyard means it's going to come up against a lot of hate, and while Fires can dodge most of it, it does get considerably worse against almost all yard hate. If you look at all the most common hate, only Leyline and Wheel of Sun and Moon hose the entire deck, and Fires has no outs against them either. Fires requires extra Groves/mana even to play around Crypt or Relic, whereas Knight, Goyf, and Crusher don't really care.
I think the original debate is whether it can replace Seismic Assault, and I just don't think it can. Assault is easier to deal with, but even so you can usually nuke their entire board in response. It's just something that flat-out wins games if it stays on the board.
It's not even that: assuming you're burning your opponent, you're paying 1RR for one damage, which is far worse than Assault. 1RR and 1 life for the opponent only nets two damage to creatures, and there aren't a lot of decks that run a ton of x/2 guys (even Merfolk's guys buff each other). That means you'd need to muster 2RR per turn plus the R from Grove to even start killing stuff, which is terribad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
But that aside - what deck runs Extirpate? If Extirpate is a problem, you shouldn't be running a LftL deck. Pretty much every other form of graveyard hate can be played around.
in my mind, it plays out like this:
punishing fire / grove:
+ ignores counters
+ pieces can be tutored with KotR / dredged into
+ resistant to some grave hate
- slower than loam + seismic
- mana intensive
- completely ruined by some grave hate
loam / seismic:
+ more explosive
+ doesn't require a graveyard
- vulnerable to enchantment hate (qsali pridemage)
- without loam, its slower than pfire+grove, and has dissynergy with crusher
- counterable
- if dredged into, can't be recovered; untutorable
If seismic sticks, and you have loam, your gonna win most the time. If you have fire and grove, you can still easily lose. However, every good deck has an answer for seismic, but most don't for fire. I'd say fire is more consistent but less powerful, but both are viable options.
fire has worked out better for me
For those interested, I've written a fairly thorough primer on my particular build of Aggro Loam.
Quick question: If you were to build a list with Wish, what do you think it would look like?
Also, Buried Ruin...worth cutting a cycler for to recur EE?
Nice writeup btw, about time an updated primer came out for this deck.
I've added the link to the front page. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
Dropped a single game last night to win the weekly Legacy:
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Mox Diamond
2 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam
2 Punishing Fires
2 Terminate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Putrefy
2 Go for the Throat
2 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Dark Confidant
1 Terravore
BOARD:
2 Perish
2 Crypt/Deed
3 Extirpate
2 Grip
1 Grudge
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Pyroblast
2 Thrun
Took it down against 43 Lands, Junk, and Stoneblade in the finals. We split for prizes, then played for glory. I won in 3; my game 2 here was terrible, and I lose because I didn't hit Seismic Assault or Punishing Fires or Grip or Grudge in the 45 cards I went through. Ugh.
Seismic Assault > Batterskull, just so you all know.
-Matt
What would you think of Scavenging Ooze in place of Lavamancers in your build? It seems strong, and having played against it, I think we could use its power quite effectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
Ruckus suggested we move the discussion of this list here, where it belongs. Quoting myself:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
The problem with this is that they don't do remotely the same thing. Grim is creature removal + reach, and Ooze is grave hate + fattie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keiichi
@Arzar, a few questions.
1. 2/3 Assault/Fires split...I would have thought the opposite would increase the chance of drawing rather than dredging Assault, has that ever been an issue?
2. Maelstrom Pulse - I've been running EE in this spot but haven't really tested enough to have to use it yet, just wondering how good Pulse has been and if you've tried anything else there
3. On the wishboard, how often do you wish for Firespout as opposed to just Dreams, especially with Bolt and Fires main?
4. Does D-Ho ever play Aggro Loam anymore?
1. Yes, sometimes dredging assault has been an issue. However, there are a lot of times when you really don't want to draw Assault, so I limit it to two copies. Punishing Fire is better if you just need removal early, and so gets the nod.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
2. I like Pulse over EE as it's not as slow assuming you're not EEing at one (and this deck kills cheap creatures very easily). Pulse is sometimes awkward as it kills your own Goyfs, but EE does too and this deck has lots of ways to win Goyf wars. Pulse is also a viable out to Jace/Moat/Humility/etc. whereas it's difficult to get 4 colors with EE. Pulse is a swiss army knife, and as long as I play black I want at least two of them.
3. Firespout is in the board specifically for Merfolk/Mystic decks with blue, or for the corner case where Dreams would not leave you at an advantage against aggro.
4. He hasn't played it in the year I've been down here, but gives me advice and lends me cards lol.
@Admiral: I've been thinking about running a Burning Wish build and yours seems to have the most promise. I like how burning wish in your build shores up the inclusion of Punishing Fires over more versatile removal, like EE. Do you ever miss having access to a full sideboard?
Yes, against combo I greatly miss the whole sideboard. But I pretty much gave up on ever winning that matchup when I built this deck, so whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
EDIT: With rare exceptions, the maindeck is a beast against aggro and control, so I'm not worried much about boarding cards. Chalices help shore up questionable aggro matchups (Burn, Cat Sligh) as well as Tempo ********* and other blue decks with extremely low curves. It might even get you there against TES if you're the luckiest man on Earth. Also feel free to board it in against decks which bolt isn't that good (Landstill). Grip is a good catch-all - I run it primarily because my meta is being overrun by Batterskulls but it could be any random answer depending on what worries you the most.
So I'm going to be honest here: I've played Legacy exactly twice in the past year, and I haven't played this specific deck in over a year (Zoo is my current weapon of choice, but I love me some Loams and would be happy to play this deck again). If people want to send me data, current matchup analyses, and the like I can update the opening posts.
Thanks.
All this talk of Jund, Naya, and 4c... but no love for the blue splash? I've seen it mentioned briefly here and there (it's usually me who brings it up), but it seems permanently dismissed by the community.
To me, Aggro Loam can be built in a vast number of ways. This can be said for most aggro/control decks, and I think there are many pros and cons to each variation.
As far as true Aggro Loam is concerned (i.e not a deck like Bant Loam or Rock Loam), R/G is the basic shell. Straight R/G plays just fine with no splash, and there are obvious reasons to splash a 3rd (and in some cases, 4th) color. I do not deny the power of Jund. I've played Jund quite a bit back in Aggro Loam's heyday (when it was a dominant force in the metagame, don't remember the year). However, I'd like to post my R/G with a blue splash:
R/G/u Aggro Loam
// Lands (24)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Tropical Island
3 [UNH] Mountain
1 [UNH] Forest
3 [ON] Forgotten Cave
1 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures (8)
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher
// Spells (28)
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
3 [EX] Seismic Assault
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [TO] Nostalgic Dreams
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
Just as a prelimary, my sideboard is still in its testing phases, so feel free to make suggestions.
I think blue lends an inredible amount of power to the deck.
Brainstorm increases the decks overall consistency tremendously, throughout the entire course of the game. Early game, Brainstorm helps increase the consistency of land drops, finding a tutor, so on and so forth. Once a Loam is online, Brainstorm essentially becomes an Ancestral Recall.
Intuition is so rediculously powerful for any deck runing Life from the Loam, that I cannot understand why others haven't tried to pioneer with a blue splash before. Intuition is essentially card advantage in a deck that uses its graveyard as an extension of its hand. Intuition for Loam/Worm Harvest/fetchland (or any card here if you have a fetchland already in the graveyard) sets up a horde of 1/1 tokens as soon as you're capable of hitting 2GGG (shouldn't be hard). Intuition also allows the deck to tutor up Ruins/EE, Wasteland, and cycle lands.
In regards to the cycle lands, between Intuition and Brainstorm, the deck can run less of them. This is a good thing, since an early flood of cycle lands can often be disastrous. It also lets the deck cut down to 1 maindeck copy of Loam, which is typically a dead draw in multiples. Also, since this deck is rather mana hungry, and I tend to use my Wastelands to destroy utility lands rather than manascew my opponent, I'm also able to cut down to 1 copy, using the space to make my manabase alot stronger.
If you ask me, Intuition > Dark Confidant, but that's my personal opinion. The deck runs no protection for the 2/1, who may or may not go the distance for you, whereas a resolved Intuition is almost always gg.
Thoughts?
EDIT: Just for some amusement...
<-------- New Game Started -------->
Hanni's Security Code: A0BA3084 [Type 1.5]
Loop's Security Code: 2C23F8A8 [Type 1.5]
It is now turn 1 (Loop)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
<Hanni> hello
Loop shuffles library
Hanni rolled a 12, using a 20 sided die
<Loop> hi
Loop rolled a 12, using a 20 sided die
Loop rolled a 10, using a 20 sided die
Loop shuffles library
Hanni rolled a 1, using a 20 sided die
Hanni draws 7 cards
<Loop> p
Loop draws 7 cards
<Hanni> kp
<Loop> kp
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Loop plays Island from Hand
<Loop> End my turn
It is now turn 2 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Hanni plays Mountain from Hand
<Hanni> End my turn
It is now turn 3 (Loop)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Loop draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Loop plays Island from Hand
<Loop> End my turn
<Hanni> EOT
Hanni taps Mountain
Hanni plays Forgotten Cave from Hand
Hanni draws a card
Hanni puts Forgotten Cave to Graveyard from Play
It is now turn 4 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Hanni plays Taiga from Hand
Hanni taps Mountain
Hanni taps Taiga
Hanni plays Tarmogoyf from Hand
Loop taps Island
<Hanni> Ok?
Loop plays Spell Snare from Hand
Loop puts Spell Snare to Graveyard from Play
Hanni puts Tarmogoyf to Graveyard from Play
<Hanni> End my turn
It is now turn 5 (Loop)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
Loop untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Loop draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Loop plays Island from Hand
Loop taps Island
Loop taps Island
Loop taps Island
Loop plays Vedalken Shackles from Hand
<Loop> End my turn
It is now turn 6 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Hanni plays Scalding Tarn from Hand
Hanni puts Scalding Tarn to Graveyard from Play
Hanni's life total is now 19 (-1)
Hanni is looking its Library...
Hanni puts Volcanic Island into play from Library
Hanni shuffles library
Hanni stops looking its Library...
Hanni taps Mountain
Hanni taps Taiga
Hanni taps Volcanic Island
Hanni plays Intuition from Hand
<Hanni> Ok?
<Loop> Ok
Hanni is looking its Library...
Hanni puts Worm Harvest into play from Library
Hanni puts Life from the Loam into play from Library
Hanni puts Academy Ruins into play from Library
Hanni shuffles library
Hanni stops looking its Library...
Hanni puts Intuition to Graveyard from Play
<Loop> Thinking
<Loop> ruins to hand
Hanni puts Academy Ruins to Hand from Play
Hanni puts Worm Harvest to Graveyard from Play
Hanni puts Life from the Loam to Graveyard from Play
<Hanni> End my turn
It is now turn 7 (Loop)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
Loop untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Loop draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Loop plays Island from Hand
Loop taps Island
Loop taps Island
Loop taps Island
Loop taps Island
Loop plays Jace, the Mind Sculptor from Hand
Jace, the Mind Sculptor now has 3 (+3) counters.
<Hanni> Ok
Loop draws a card
Loop draws a card
Loop draws a card
Loop puts a card on top of Library from Hand
Loop puts a card on top of Library from Hand
<Loop> End my turn
It is now turn 8 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
<Hanni> Thinking
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Hanni plays Wooded Foothills from Hand
Hanni puts Wooded Foothills to Graveyard from Play
Hanni's life total is now 18 (-1)
Hanni is looking its Library...
Hanni puts Forest into play from Library
Hanni shuffles library
Hanni stops looking its Library...
Hanni taps Mountain
Hanni plays Lightning Bolt from Hand
<Loop> Thinking
Loop puts Jace, the Mind Sculptor to Graveyard from Play
Hanni puts Lightning Bolt to Graveyard from Play
Hanni taps Taiga
Hanni taps Volcanic Island
Hanni taps Forest
Hanni plays Engineered Explosives from Hand
<Hanni> Ok?
<Loop> Thinking
Engineered Explosives now has 3 (+3) counters.
Loop plays Force of Will from Hand
Loop plays Counterspell from Hand
Hanni puts Engineered Explosives to Graveyard from Play
Loop's life total is now 19 (-1)
<Hanni> End my turn
Loop puts Counterspell to RFG from Play
Loop puts Force of Will to Graveyard from Play
It is now turn 9 (Loop)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
Loop untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Loop draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Loop plays Island from Hand
Loop taps Island
Loop taps Island
Loop taps Island
Loop plays Back to Basics from Hand
<Loop> End my turn
<Hanni> Ok
It is now turn 10 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni puts Life from the Loam into play from Graveyard
Hanni puts Forgotten Cave into play from Library
Hanni puts Engineered Explosives into play from Library
Hanni puts Countryside Crusher into play from Library
Hanni puts Forgotten Cave to Graveyard from Play
Hanni puts Engineered Explosives to Graveyard from Play
Hanni puts Countryside Crusher to Graveyard from Play
Hanni puts Life from the Loam to Hand from Play
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
<Hanni> Thinking
Hanni plays Mountain from Hand
Hanni taps Forest
Hanni taps Mountain
Hanni plays Burning Wish from Hand
<Hanni> Ok?
<Loop> Ok
Hanni is looking its Sideboard...
<Hanni> Thinking
Hanni puts Hull Breach into play from Sideboard
Hanni puts Hull Breach to Hand from Play
Hanni stops looking its Sideboard...
Hanni puts Burning Wish to RFG from Play
<Hanni> End my turn
It is now turn 11 (Loop)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
Loop untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Loop draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Loop rearranges cards in Loop's Hand
<Loop> Thinking
<Loop> End my turn
It is now turn 12 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Loop puts Spell Snare to Hand from Graveyard
<Hanni> ?
<Hanni> why did you just put spell snare to hand from graveyard?
<Loop> ?>
<Hanni> you just put spell snare to your hand from your graveyard
<Loop> no...
<Hanni> dont act stupid
<Hanni> it says it in the chat log
<Hanni> fucking cheater
<Loop> ??
<Loop> wtf
<Hanni> SPELL SNARE
<Hanni> you moved it from your graveyard to your hand
<Hanni> idiot
<Loop> ok, if you're going to accuse me of stuff i didn't do
<Loop> bye
<System> Player Lost
No offense, but just an observation: you like blue in everything. First Rock, now this?
:tongue::cool:
Interesting list. I think it looks cool, but I'm not sure if blue pulls its weight. Dark Confidant and removal are pretty good.
By the way, all our removal is Green or Red or doesn't kill artifacts. We lose to a resolved Sphinx of the Steel Wind (as narrow as that is, Iona on black or Sphinx can't be killed). I know it's a very niche observation, but Reanimator is around.
-Matt