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How are we hitting Vial? As much as I'm loving this deck, the one thing it doesn't have is artifact/enchantment/non-creature-permanent hate. I keep 3 Pithing Needles in the board for this. It saved me against Painter's Servant/Grindstone last week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I think he means you should be making them discard Vial before they play it. But like he said, this can only be done on the play, so I wouldn't exactly call it an "answer" to Vial.
Do we have any solutions vs Planeswalker? Jace is such a pain in the ass. I have really a hard time vs Jacestill. Its blanking Blood and to some degree Gatekeeper and in your list the deathtouches.
To my mind only needle comes
My Sideboard contains 3x P.Needle, 4x Vampire Hexmage, 4x Duress and 3 Oblivion Stone (that like to become Disks)
Should be enough
Don't forget that you have discard as well as a lot of aggressive creatures. Thus, if the walker isn't discarded, then even if it hits the field you can likely kill it. (In fact, no walker can survive a hit from abyssal persecutor, which is a plus.)Quote:
Originally Posted by unicoerner
Today I played here in germany a local tournament with the result 2-1-1 drop.
My maindeck looked like Hollywoods list with one change: -1 Deathmark; + 1Urborg, Tomb...
SB: 4 Leyline (a lot of ichorid and loam in the meta), 4 soul spike, etc. unfortunately NO spinning darkness -> I bought them but they did not arrive fast enough
I faced the following decks:
NO-Pile: Gate is nuts vs NO-Decks. Even his fat hydra couldn't stop me 2-0
MonoR Burn: Not fair g1 he was too fast. game 2 my nighthawks won the game. g3 it was a tight match, but with a persecutor and a nighthawk on the table he could win with his only remaining draw :( bad luck for me. 1-2
Loam: g1: he had a lot of critters and raced me; g2 my faeries and gatekeepers made it. g3: hard game were I could gain the boardcontrol with beating gatekeepers and nighthawks. Unfortunately the extra turns stopped me... only one turn was missing for the victory
Faeries shined to bright, just amazing;) haven`t seen any leyline... 1-1
Rock: g1: he had every removal he could draw. Then goyf, goyf, goyf, knight... win. g2 was better an I gained control and won. g3 the same thing 2-1
Some important thoughts about the deck during my second tournament with this deck.
1. Today was my first tournament with maindeck deathmarks (had only 2). I was very sceptical if they are really good. But during the whole tournament they were never dead cards in my hand.
2. My most wanted card of the day was clearly gatekeeper of M. he performed just amazing
3. the four soul spikes are great. ok I had no spinning darkness, but against the rock I hardcasted 2 spikes in game 3 which were so relevant that they turned a loss into a win;) against burn I haven`t seen them:(
4. 3 jitten are the right number: often opponents kill jitte with jitte or they can handle one. the second one often resolved and sealed the matches
5. my most important point: Something was really annoying: I had to take a lot of mulligans - often more than one in each game. Normally 21 lands are enough, but today I have seen a lot of 0-mana hands. Well I think it was a lack of luck today, but that was the only negative aspect today
6. The Gate is just amazing! (ok everyone knows that;)
Question for Hollywood: what do you feel are the most important cards to the core of the Gate? I've been playing Deadguy variants for a while now, and while the overall strategy of disrupt early, then drop late bombs is very similar, the Gate seems to have a much better matchup against fast aggro, namely Zoo. I'm already running Bitterblossoms and was thinking of running Persecutors/Therapy, so I feel like my build is heading in that direction anyway.
Might gate to phyrexia tickle your fancy?Quote:
Originally Posted by JayWhyte1085
Disk doesn't hit planeswalkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterEgo
No, but with: Discard, the Attack Phase, Soul Spike, and Dystopia, they should hardly be of any worries to you. I've never had a problem when facing a Planeswalker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shabbaman
Also, how would Painter's Servant-Grindstone be any sort of a problem to begin with? With all the removal and discard, there is no reason that particular combo should be of any worries to you. The combo relies directly on a single creature to be effective, and this deck predicates itself on removal with a generous supplement of discard. We don't need to hit Aether Vial; all you need to do is match their creatures with removal and creatures of your own.
I'm a little curious as to what you've done to modify your build because there is no reason you should worry about creatures playing with this deck. What artifacts and enchantments are you so concerned about that Dystopia, Nevinyrral's Disk, or Gate to Phyrexia cannot handle?
Just to back up Hollywood, it doesn't appear at first glance that it would be the case, but the main deck is EXTREMELY TIGHTLY TUNED, and replacing ANY of the cards gives you a very different experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
This is Hollywood's list & SB:
The Gate (as of 21JUL10)
[4x] Abyssal Persecutor
[4x] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[4x] Dark Confidant
[4x] Vampire Nighthawk
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[4x] Duress
[4x] Innocent Blood
[3x] Deathmark
[3x] Cabal Therapy
[3x] Hymn to Tourach
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[2x] Bitterblossom
[16x] Swamp
[4x] Wasteland
//Sideboard
[4x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Dystopia
[3x] Soul Spike
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Sword of Light and Shadow
[1x] Deathmark
Maindeck, mine goes -1 Faerie Macabre,-1 Umezawa's Jitte for +2 Swamps. Hollywood has greater % chance of seeing gravehate or that useful Equipment, I have greater % chance of having black mana during the game. However, both decks have 58 of the same cards, and they play identically, except for those few percentages.
I've tried to make a good monoblack deck since before Ice Age, but Hollywood has done it. The more cards I change to experiment, the worse the deck gets. At this point, I'm sold on my 60, and am rather fond of my +15, but that was before Hollywood bit the SoLaS bullet, which is pretty interesting. My sideboard, for reference:
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Deathmark
4 Soul Spike
4 Unmask
3 Dystopia
(Unmask over Spinning Darkness because I'm more worried about the various Show & Tell and other combo decks that are cropping up than an x/3 on the other side)
In conclusion, don't change any cards until you've played the deck A LOT and seen the whole thing working together. Put a little trust in the designer; he's done a great job.
I just wish he'd made it to Columbus!!!
I really wish I had made it to Columbus, too. But, such is life in the military.
I am looking into testing a complete set of Bitterblossoms in the main build. It has always been a card that seems to warp the game over the course of several turns and provides a great deal of card advantage at virtually no cost (one life per turn is almost inconsequential given how direct an assault can be with the removal that is played).
With the addition of Sword of Light and Shadow in the sideboard, we can now create more card advantage in several different ways:
a. We can make our creatures larger and more of an immediate threat.
b. We can protect our creatures from two colors.
c. We can retrieve a creature from the graveyard.
d. We can gain life lost over miscellaneous things like Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom, but being especially important against decks like Zoo and the sort.
The discard plays an important role in methodically depleting an opponent's hand of key spells and allowing you to set yourself up with a win condition. I've even been testing cards like Soul Spike against Zoo and it has been absolutely phenomenal (even though it is a dedicated slot to compliment the combo match). I have also been trying to improve the attrition battle against Zoo since falling to it in the Top Four at Jupiter Games' Two Year Anniversary event. There is no reason this deck should lose to a deck like that when much of the list is hell-bent on rendering those decks incapable of establishing any board presence and forcing them to focus their key burn spells on your creatures rather than you.
I've been trying to systematically weave items into the fabric of the deck that can multitask. Here are some of those cards that serve a critical dual-purpose and can remain effective at any point in the game:
Faerie Macabre
Main Purpose: To cripple an opponent whose deck is largely predicated on using the graveyard as a primary function.
Other Purpose: The ability to fly, attack, and equip at a relatively generous cost.
Innocent Blood
Main Purpose: An early source of sacrificial, non-targeted removal at a very cheap cost.
Other Purpose: To sacrifice Abyssal Persecutor and subsequently win the game. Also used to rid yourself of an unwanted Dark Confidant bringing your life total dangerously low.
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Main Purpose: To force an opponent to sacrifice a creature by "kicking it" (without targeting it).
Other Purpose: To allow yourself to sacrifice an Abyssal Persecutor or Dark Confidant. Also used as a cheap, decent-sized creature to attack with.
Soul Spike
Main Purpose: To stun the Storm-combo player when Ad Nauseam drops their life significantly lower. It provides a means of winning the game aside from discard on the draw Game Two, and gains you life to force them to work a little extra hard in killing you.
Other Purpose: A weapon against decks using numerous burn spells and creatures (i.e. Zoo). Also dodges Counterbalance.
Cabal Therapy
Main Purpose: To cripple an opponent's hand by forcing them to discard (potentially) multiple copies of key spells at a cheap cost.
Other Purpose: To "Flashback" by sacrificing an Abyssal Persecutor and win you the game. Also capable of ridding a Dark Confidant and allowing you to force an opponent to discard again.
Hopefully this helps some. It should also be noted several of these cards utilize some sort of purpose to dispose of Abyssal Persecutor to win you the game. The cards that do this for you are already fantastic on their own merit, which makes the deck run very smoothly.
I am already playing a list similar to your's but i guess i was playing it before it was called "the gate". here's my card list:
Beefy Black
[4x] Abyssal Persecutor
[4x] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[4x] Dark Confidant
[4x] Vampire Nighthawk
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[4x] Thoughtseize
[4x] Innocent Blood
[2x] Doom Blade
[3x] Cabal Therapy
[3x] Hymn to Tourach
[2x] Umezawa's Jitte
[2x] Grafted Wargear
[2x] Bitterblossom
[16x] Swamp
[4x] Wasteland
removal:
doom blade i felt was just all around better than death mark due to the efficiency of the card.
another sac outlet:
grafted wargear is a great sac outlet that i have been using. it makes all of your creatures into very fast clocks and bitterblossom + wargear is a near combo in itself.
Deathmark costs one mana, which is exactly what we're going for in this deck. Doom Blade is only slightly better than Terror and costs two. It (Doom Blade) also forces you to pass your second turn without being able to play anything - including a discard spell - because you're waiting until their "End of Turn" step to cast it on one of their creatures. You would at this point have potentially taken damage and left yourself more open to cards like Daze.Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Deck
Deathmark ended up saving me in the most critical round of the most critical match of the most critical game of the Jupiter Games tournament. I was stuck on one land in the third game on a mulligan to five, and because I had several of them in hand, I ended up winning the game by knocking-off his threats and stabilizing shortly thereafter.
Clearly you just need to be running two more basics. Legacy players and their wacky manabases!
Exactly what deathmark did for me a few days ago in a some critical situations. At the beginning I was very sceptical about this maindeck choice. But hey - I gave it a chance and now I am absolutly convinced, that deathmark is beside our sacc effects an important removal in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Clearly.Quote:
Originally Posted by EssKay
I suppose those two additional Swamps would fix an already lower curve as it is with 26.7% of the deck running basic Swamps and 43.3% of the deck playing spells that cost two mana or less (and don't forget the 33.3% of the total cards requiring only a single Swamp when casting).
Getting to two Swamps in this deck is hardly a feat with sixteen basic lands. Getting to three is effectively no different when you'd only be required to have the third Swamp for Gatekeeper of Malakir.
The deck's land-count is efficient and statistically acceptable (and stable) as it stands. If you choose to run two more Swamps, go right ahead. My mulligan to five that game was the only time I had to do that the entire tournament.Quote:
Legacy players and their wacky manabases!
And, I still won.
That was actually a joke (reference). You need to take a break from being super defensive about your list and enjoy the rest of the site.
I'm not being super defensive about my list at all; I mentioned if you would like to run eighteen lands, that is completely up to you (see above). However, when you make a comment like that that comes off as overly authoritative with no reason as to why we should all run two more basic lands (even if it is a reference that some of us may not have gotten), I kind of like to challenge comments like that with good reasoning as to why we should fix something that isn't broken (which is why all I did was provide numbers). Remember, not all of us can read minds as to what you were really referencing to, as not all of us have read articles like that or made the immediate connection at face-value.Quote:
Originally Posted by EssKay
I do enjoy the rest of the site; it's where I'm able to virtually substitute my caffeine in the morning by reading articles like that to help keep me awake. There's nothing like a good debate to generate intelligent, thought-provoking material to spur the creative juices and get them flowing. In fact, I'm actually writing an article on Deck Theory that provides a little insight on the format for newer players or players considering joining the Legacy community.
I knew EssKay's jocular reference already, but I *AM* actually running two more basic swamps in my list. I'm currently deciding whether or not to cut one (down to 17), but I've liked the stability of ALWAYS having :b::b::b: on turn 4. Eighteen might be too many, but I felt 16 was too few.