What do you mean by Metamorph has to copy his own clique??Quote:
Originally Posted by JPAnghelescu
Why?
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What do you mean by Metamorph has to copy his own clique??Quote:
Originally Posted by JPAnghelescu
Why?
Clone effects entering the battlefield through Show and Tell are unable to clone the other S&Ted creature, as it tries to enter the battlefield as a copy, but because it wants to enter as a copy it cannot see the other creature that is Showed yet because it has not hit play yet.
Ah OK it wasn't written clearly this way.
Thanks.
Hey gang! Been quite awhile since I've posted here--grad school has kept me out of competitive legacy for a couple of months now.
Glad to see people still finding success with the deck. It's definitely a contender in the current meta, one of the few, true combo control decks.
My sparse primer could definitely use quite a bit of filling in, especially in the Matchup Analysis section as much of the info from over a year ago is dated. Anyway...
With regards to card selection, there are a couple of areas deserving of further discussion I feel. One is Jace, TMS, which will often take the place of Echoing Truth. I've been testing one vs. the other and I can't make a coherent decision. Jace is good, for sure. He costs more, but he soaks up damage on the ground which is not irrelevant, he Bstorms, and in niche situations makes you feel like a boss if you're forced to SnT while the opponent is packing Knight of the Reliquary. So Jace definitely serves multiple functions. However, I don't think it will win games on it's own for us like it does for other decks because A) he has no protection and B) how often are you really gonna be fate-sealing, especially if there's pressure to assemble the combo. Still the second and third abilities could be good enough, in important addition to being an out to opposing Jace's, which can be devastating.
So I don't know, but I'd love to get more feedback.
The other card selection questions involve creature choices, and counter package.
I'm a strong proponent of 7-9 creatures and 7+ pieces of counter magic in this deck. Personally I love to start 9 creatures (though I frequently pull back to 7 post-board) and it's been about a year since I've run fewer than 9 pieces of counter-magic. It seems that many of the lists posted recently are running packages of 4 Fow 3 Misdirection. I personally love Misdirection. I haven't started fewer than 2 since February. Sure they often get boarded out, but they shore up one of the decks biggest weakness, decks running Hymn to Tourach, and they help to win counter wars like nobody's business.
Another reason I love Misdirection is because it can protect creatures like Blightsteel Colossus and Jin-Gitaxias if you decide to go those routes. For the record, both creatures are nutty against Storm based combo, although I'd give the edge to Jin, especially if you're on the SnT plan. In the right environment, Blightsteel/Jin is definitely correct over Progenitus, but in an unknown larger meta, I typically feel safer with the Hydra-god.
Here's my current list for reference:
Main:
4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Intuition
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
2 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
2 Echoing Truth
3 Lotus Petal
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
Side:
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon
2 Submerge
3 Firespout
2 Propaganda
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Echoing Truth
Propaganda is brutal against Dredge and very effective against any aggro strategy. Submerge (along with E-truth) can provide help against KotR shenanigans.
I have always liked Spell Pierce; it's counterbackup, plus hit's thoughtsieze, hymn, duress, and Natural Order effectively. Strong against combo. Just a personal preference thing.
And Jin-Gitaxias, other than simply being an unbelievable amount of fun, is incredibly strong. It's biggest weakness is of course it's susceptibility to spot removal. But you can do some neat things with him, including Sneaking him in during the opponents end-step, making them discard to zero, taking your turn, attacking, then drawing 7, gg. Generally though, it's correct simply to Sneak him in on your own turn and draw the 7 before your opponent gets a chance to respond to Sneak Attack. Drawing 7 is ridiculous for this strategy. Pretty nasty with SnT as well. Although he sometimes fails to win a ground battle even with a Tarmogoyf, it's mostly irrelevant because if you draw 7, your opponent will likely be discarding his hand due to the permission you've drawn, then you're very likely to go off again the next turn (when SnT has never been sweeter).
While this is a relatively linear strategy, there is still much to discuss. I look forward to hearing from you guys.
Cheers,
Pat
New Liliana is a bitch :( she's popping up in all kinds of previously decent to good matchups making them a lot less good. I'm still thinking about whether I want to rock this deck at the GP (with 3 byes, gotten with this deck). I feel like Jin-Gitaxias is unnecessary, basically a bit win-more. I feel like 7 creatures is more than enough, I play 10 counters (4 FoW, 3 Misd and 3 Daze), the full 8 cantrips and 4 intuition.
Our team (2-3 people will probably play our list at the GP) are trying a small green splash for the SB at the moment, basically for Beast Within (and flying Firespouts) which gets rid of a couple of annoying permanents (Needle, Ensnaring Bridge, Liliana, Humility, Blazing Archon, Iona on blue). The decks weakest matchups are basically faster combo decks (TES, ANT and Reanimator). This is where we built our sideboard around. It currently looks like this:
3 Trinisphere (solely for Storm matchups and Elves)
3 Vendilion Clique (good against combo, edict effects and control)
3 Beast Within (good against permanent hate, can also mop up your opponent after triple lava axe + eating 6 permanents)
3 Spell Pierce (against control and combo)
3 Firespout (against zoo, merfolk for buying you time, goblins, affinity, but depends on list)
Show and Tell is one of the weaker cards in the deck and I'm actually thinking about cutting back to 3. I almost always want to go for Sneak Attack (altho quite often via Show and Tell, nabbing a free Knight eaten by Emradaddy).
@Trentemoller: New Liliana is totally a bitch when on the SnT plan. It remains to be seen how popular she'll ultimately become in the overall Legacy meta, but it's safe to say that she is going to see play in certain strategies for the foreseeable future.
I have to disagree with you, though, that Jin-Gitaxias is "basically a bit win-more." IMO, there is a strong case to be made that it's simply better than Progenitus on the whole. It's entirely matchup/meta dependent, however. In my experience, Jin can often be the difference between winning and not winning, but doesn't fall in to win-more range. It's an argument of redundancy vs. variety in card selection, and, in terms of approach, one of aggressiveness vs. conservation.
I think that sb you're promoting makes tremendous sense in a storm/combo happy environment. Beast Within makes sense to me as well against permanent hate.
I've been tweaking my white splash list to hopefully deal both with the annoyance of Liliana's edict effect as well as the perceived resurgence of storm, post MM.
This is the track I'm on:
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Intuition
2 Spell Pierce
2 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
3 Lotus Petal
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
Sideboard
3 Meddling Mage
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Firespout
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Blood Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Propaganda
Enlightened Tutor helps to emphasize the Sneak Attack route in light of Liliana and also helps us to make use of bullets in the board to help in particular matchups. Additionally, white allows access to Meddling Mage against combo and Oblivion Ring for permanent based hate.
He could have simply chosen to have the Metamorph enter as a 0/0 artifact creature as printed on the card, so that only the Metamorph dies but the Clique survives. That seems to be the right call unless using the Clique's cycling trigger was that important to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trentemoller
A x/0 creature dies immediately. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
I really like the white splash, gives the deck more consistency and more possibilities. And Blightsteel Colossus is just brutal.
Yuuki Ookubo, who top 4ed the Eternal Festival in Tokyo last year (and Sam Roukas) played a RUWB version with access to Extirpates and Perishs; I liked that one, too.
There are legitimate arguments for splashes in every color, although maybe black is lowest on the totem poll presently. Depends one's meta and play-style I suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPAnghelescu
The e-tutors do offer consistency and versatility, but at the expense of some (not much, but some) speed and redundancy.
When Ookubo top 4ed the Eternal Festival pretty much everyone piloting this deck was running the black splash for Extirpate because it was the era of Vengevival, after all. On the whole, I don't feel there is a need for Perish at the moment and I'd probably start with Surgical Extraction before tossing in U-Seas for Extirpate if I wanted that effect against combo/snapcaster decks.
That's very true and also the reason why I will stick with the UR build. I just want Sneak Show to be brutal and fast. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by JustPAT4
What do you guys think about Simian Spirit Guide? He can be a blocker, can pay for a Daze and is immune against Counterbalance (unlike Lotus Petal); and he can deal the lethal 2 damage. ;) The list I am currently testing for Amsterdam splits petal/song/spirit guide 2/2/2 and feels very good.
I do really like the spirit guide. Personally I go with the petals because I like my deck to have potential for the "God Hand" (Force/Misdirection, Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, Lotus Petal, Show and Tell, Creature, Blue Card, X). I know some people, though, who insist on SSG because (especially) of the surprise factor of countering Daze, allowing for a surprise Sneak Attack activation, mostly being the same as petal after Turn 1, and being a random body to soak up damage or nullify an edict effect on occasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPAnghelescu
The split seems fine to me. Nice and aggressive.
That's exactly how I feel.
So here is my (main) deck for Amsterdam:
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Progenitus
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
2 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
2 Seething Song
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
I would like to play 19 lands but don't know what to cut. 1 Intuition?
How many fatty slots do most Sneak and Show lists usually run? I played against the deck at a tournament this past weekend and my opponent was playing Woodfall Primus and Ulamog in addition to Emrakul and Progenitus. The Primus in particular was really annoying.
Primus used to be good, kind of gone away now, I know I took it out of mine, I run 4 Emmy and 4 Proggy.
JP, you may want to reconsider Daze, Spell Pierce is a better way to go for this deck, you lose a whole turn when you Daze somthing, and that's unacceptable for this deck. Spell Pierce is where it's at, along with Misdirection and Force. Think about it, there aren't really that many non-creature spells you want to counter, especially pre-board. KotR is really the only one. You can camp a force for him. You're more concerned about things that stop you're creatures from attacking and things like dicard and counterspells on your S&T and Sneak Attack. Spell Peirce deals with discard and counters. Emmy deals with their creatures very nicely. So I would suggest cutting Daze for Spell Pierce, you'll thank me for it later.
I thought about that and decided to play 3 Spell Pierce in the Sideboard and I like them there. I might play Misdirection instead of Daze, though. I found out that I rarely want to wait for 1 more blue mana to have the option for spell pierce, but post board I can adjust accordingly and get more controllish.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colonel
My current sideboard:
3 Blood Moon
3 Firespout
1 Wipe Away
3 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Tormod's Crypt
I know many players like to play 4 Leylines of Sanctity, but I really don't know what to cut... What do you guys think about my sideboard in general, facing the metagame at GP Amsterdam?
About Woodfall Primus: In my opinion he is just to bad via Show and Tell and the things he does are done by Echoing Truth just as well, even better, since they stop Dredge and Enchantress. I was quite convinced by Blightsteel Colossus, but Proggy and Emmy are the safest way to go.
JP, I like your board. Can't tell you how many games Blood Moon has won me. The other guy never sees it coming and the other nice thing about it is that since it's so dangerous to many of the 3 color deck in the format they may pass over making you discard a S&T to get rid of blood moon. The moon also draws out counterspells allowing us to get our beefy spells through. Crypt is a must, I run relic, just a preference thing since relic nuders Goyf better and he's EVERYWHERE again. I also like firespout, once Misstep got banned everyone broke out their aggro decks again. Just played at 100 man tourny last weekend, Storm and Aggro were everywhere. (I didn't play this deck though) Now before I get into my board I should prolly post it.
3 Blood Moon
3 Relic of Proggy
3 Firespout
Now this is where we split apart
3 Stifle
3 Massacre Wurm
Stifle is currently in my "move around" slot. I like it cuz it's great against storm triggers and SFM triggers. Both of which are everywhere. Can also be used against Wasteland, fetch, etc etc...
Now, Massacre Wurm... this guy is my secret which I am sharing with you. People never ever see him comming. Elves, Gobs, Zoo, Death and Taxes, Enchantress, Dredge... you sneak him in to play in their declare attackers phase or show and tell him into play when they think they have the game won. Their jaws hit the table when he comes into play. You can slam someone for 16 life loss before he even attacks so it doesn't matter if he gets STPed (if they even kept STP in post bored).
Blightsteel is a liability at best. The main problem with this deck is that we invest an entire game into geting one creature on the battlefield so it better be one that sticks till the end. You can piss a game away with Blightsteel.
A minimum of reading could answer this question...or just scoping out the OP. Generally speaking the answer is 6-10, though most lists start 8-9. It sounds like the deck you played against was emphasizing redundancy in creature form (perhaps even in business form, if he was running Through the Breach in addition to Sneak and Show). Standard lists have moved away from Primus these days mostly because more devastating options exist (in the form of Blightsteel and Jin).Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeingersh
@JPA
I'm certainly in favor of the 19th land. I know you're on the speed plan, but you don't lose hardly anything if you cut the Seething Songs for +1 Petal/SSG and +1 Fetch.
Also, I know it's a very minor point, but I just don't think that the full playset of Volcs is necessary. Having the basics is so clutch. You can actually play the deck without any worry with just 2 duals. I only fetch a Volc if absolutely necessary or if I'm dead certain that my opponent doesn't have even a 1 of wasteland in his/her list. Mana denial is one of the easiest ways to cripple this deck. You could legitimately lose a game because that Volc you drew wasn't an Island, but almost never the other way around. I'd suggest -1 Volc, +1 Island. Just my opinion though.
Thanks for your answers, guys. I will cut the Seething Songs for 1 land and 1 Petal then. They are just too situational and I boarded them out everytime. I will decide about the sideboard during my trip to Amsterdam. ;) Maybe I will even change the complete deck last-minute, who knows.
Colonel, how many counters do you play main? Because I feel that I want some more counter power (in form of spell pierces or REB) post-board against counter-heavy decks; not to counter their threats, but to counter their counters. Stifle is cool, it can even stop Hive Mind for one turn.
This past Sunday I played in my first sanctioned legacy event since fucking July. Also my first since moving to Chapel Hill, North Carolina.
A fellow sourcer turned me on to Sci-Fi Genre and Games, which is the only store in this region that runs a weekly legacy event.
I had a blast, the staff was helpful, prices were reasonable, and the players were friendly, inviting, and fun.
The tournament had 10 players, most of them fucking ringers, which was perfect for me. A small, but highly developed, super-competitive meta.
These were the registered decks: ANT, Team America, Dredge, Reanimator, U/B counterbalance, U/W Blade Control, U/W/r Blade Control, Bant Aggro, NO Bant, and of course me with Sneak Show.
My list was the U/R one I posted earlier on this page (with -1 e-truth and +1 crypt in the board).
I ended up going 4-0, never dropping a game.
Here's a tournament report:
Round 1 Vs. Kyle w/ U/B Counterbalance
Jaces, Lilianas, Bobs, Delvers, Hymns, Counters, black spot removal, and counterbalance/top.
Game 1: Fast and bloody. (Starting hand was SnT, Emmy, Force of Will, Echoing Truth, Ponder, Fetch, and Ancient Tomb.) On the play I fetch an island and ponder into Misdirection/Jin/Land. I decide to keep the order. He plays U-Sea into Sensei’s Top and passes. I untap, draw Jin, drop the tomb, and cast SnT. He Forces, I misdirect pitching Jin and plop Emmy on the field while he plops another U-sea. On his 2nd turn he drops a land and casts Liliana (GASP!), but my last two cards in hand are FOW and e-truth, gg.
Game 2: He sets up Counter-balance/Top on his 3rd turn and passes. I’m not too concerned with counterbalance at this point having already cantriped twice and ready to plop down Sneak Attack next turn. I cast Sneak Attack my turn 3, tapping out to do it, but again I have Force + Misdirection and double blue card in hand. He forces, I misdirect, Sneak Attack lands. He casts a Bob next turn and passes. I throw and angry Emrakul at him on my turn and reveal my hand of Jin, Intuition, FOW. GG.
1-0 (2-0)
Round 2 Vs. Jeff w/ Team America
This can be a pretty brutal matchup especially on the draw if they leave mana open for stifle. Playing around wasteland is a must.
Game 1: I keep an awkward hand of Sneak Attack, Brainstorm, E-Truth x2, Island, Fetch, Tomb. He’s on the play and opens with T1 Inquisition of Kozilek taking Brainstorm. I draw SnT on my turn, play fetch, crack getting Mountain and pass. He plays a turn 2 Delver of Secrets and passes, leaving a wasteland untapped. I draw Ponder on turn 2 and cast it revealing Progen, Progen, Misdirection. I put Misdirection on top, draw it and pass. His delver fails to grow, but he does ponder during his turn, plays a second wasteland, and pokes me for 1. My turn 3 I draw Progen, play Tomb cast SnT. He thinks for awhile, asks for the oracle text on Sneak Attack, lets it resolve. I share Progen with the class, he brings a lowly Tarmogoyf. He scoops during his turn.
Game 2: My starting hand is Fetch, Fetch, Petal, Sneak Attack, REB, Ponder, FoW. He starts with Turn 1 Delver. I draw Brainstorm, play/crack fetch for island, cast lotus petal, cast ponder revealing Misdirection, Blood Moon, Sneak Attack. I scarf up the Misdirection and leave Blood Moon on top. On his turn 2 he casts Hymn to Tourach. Living the dream, I misdirect it (pitching BS, but maybe should have been FoW) evoking groans from the entire room. He loses a goyf and a fetch to his own Hymn. On my 2nd turn I draw Blood Moon, play/crack fetch getting a mountain, and decide to go for Blood Moon, figuring he would’ve countered the Hymn if he had it. Blood Moon resolves and is devastating for him. He’s cold to it. 0 basics. His hopes and dreams are pinned on his Delver of secrets, which grows and swings for 3. Of course I’m still gripping the REB, which spikes Delver on my turn 3 and then I have infinite time to draw land, cast Sneak Attack, draw creatures, win.
2-0 (4-0)
Round 3 vs. Russel w/ Bant Aggro
I knew Russel was on Bant, but wasn't sure if he was running the Natural Order package. I did know he was packing KotR, but not too sure about Karakas. Still, if I had the time, I had to play around the potential KotR blowout after SnT into Emmy.
Game 1: I open Ponder, SnT, Emmy, Spell Pierce, Island, Fetch, Petal. On the play I drop the island and Ponder (digging for Progen/Sneak Attack/Intuition) and I whiff, after the suffle I draw Ancient Tomb. Russel starts with a trop and a Noble Hierarch. I draw intuition on my turn and have a decision to make. The line of play I decide on is to Intuition during his EOT for Sneak Attacks, which will open me up to Clique, but seems safer. Maybe not, but I don't want to get blown out by KotR shenanigans. So I play my tomb and petal and pass. Russel decides to Clique me during his main phase (lucky me), which I'm OK with since the Intuition gives me the redunancy I need. He takes the Intuition after some thinking, which gets replaced by Progenitus (awesome). On my turn I draw another spell pierce, play my fetch and cast SnT. He Forces, I spell pierce, SnT resovles I put in Progen, he puts in goyf. I win the race with ease.
Game 2: He mulls to 5 on the play (His 5 turns out to be Spell Pierce, Snapcaster, Tarmogoyf, 2x land, not too bad). This one's pretty quick, though. I SnT turn 3 into Progen. He Spell Pierces and I Misdirect it.
3-0 (6-0)
Round 4 vs. Florian w/ NO Bant
I saw Florian playing between rounds and knew he was a solid, deliberate payer and that he was running NO Bant with V-Cliques, KotR and Karakas. A pretty upsetting matchup on paper.
Game 1: Was epic and awkward. I will try to do it some justice. On the play I keep a hand of x2 SnT, Brainstorm, Ponder, Island, Fetch, Tomb. I open with Island, Ponder and see a bunch of mana and another SnT. After the shuffle, I draw Sneak Attack. He plays a forest and a GSZ for 0, I make him stop and think for a moment, trying to bluff the Daze, then tell him it’s fine. On my turn 2 I draw another Tomb, play my fetch and pass. He fetches up a trop, pokes me with his tree-man, and passes. I brainstorm EOT and manage to draw Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Misty Rainforest. I’m not quite sure why my deck is donkey punching me in the nuts all of the sudden, but I put back a SnT and a Tomb, then insta-fetch. On my turn I draw my basic Mountain like a champion, run it out, and pass. His turn 3 he brainstorms, plays a fetch, cracks it, and pokes me again with the man land. Back to me, I draw another Misty, making my hand Sneak, Sneak, Show, Show, Misty, Misty, Tomb. I run out the tomb then try to bait out some counter magic by casting a Sneak Attack. It just resolves, which indicates to me that he’s dry. He Cliques me on his turn, looks at my mess, tells me I can keep it, runs his tree into me, and GSZ for 0 again. He now has 7 permanents. On my turn I draw Intuition—fuck yes. I ask him twice if all his lands are tapped, he says yes both times, I’m not sure why the arbor he just Zenithed for is tapped, but partially based on that I make an intuition pile of Emrakul, Emrakul, Jin-Gitaxias. (My thinking is this: I’m on 14, if I blow him out with Emrakul this turn he’s gonna save his V-Clique and I’ll get 4 draws to find another threat before I die to faerie beats. Considering how badly my deck has been shitting on me, even though statistics are in my favor, I decide that after Jin draws me 7, I’m more likely to just win next turn. This was probably a mistake, but it was pretty awesome nonetheless.) Of course he gives me Jin, I Sneak him in, enter my attack step, and Florian then untaps his Dryad arbor, offering "oh this is untapped." I was a little annoyed (the arbor plus the Clique = 4 damage meaning Jin can't swing), but considering that the Arbor was not legally allowed to tap for mana, I just had to suck it up. I skip to the end step, and draw 7 cards which include Intuition, Jin, Brainstorm, x2 Misdirection, double fetch. Bad, but not abysmal. On his turn he Natty Orders up Progen (uh-toh) and it’s do or die time. I untap, brainstorm hoping for Progen or Emrakul before I Intuition, but instead draw E-Truth, Lotus petal, island. That’s ok, now I’ve got a path to victory. I’m at exactly 10 at this point and he still has 7 permanents. I run out the petal and a fetch, Intuition a pile of Emmy’s, E-truth the Clique (the only legal target on his side), and crash in with Emrakul wiping him out. Needed all 7 mana I had open for that ridiculousness.
Game 2: A bit more reasonable. He starts with a Heath and passes, I ponder into Force, Blood Moon, Emrakul (I already have show and tell and mana in hand), I draw the force, and keep the blood moon on top. He plays karakas as his land for turn and passes. I play a fetch and pass. He plays a trop, passes, and I brainstorm during his EOT. Next turn I cast Blood Moon, and I force his force. The turn after that I SnT into Emrakul.
4-0 (8-0)
Props to Jeff for running a solid tournament, giving me a ride home, and inviting me to his poker game that night.
Cheers,
Pat
Hi am pretty new to this archetype and I was wondering how good this deck is in the modern meta? And is it stronger than Reanimator?