... Nihil Spellbomb costs :1: to cast and only tapping to activate...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
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... Nihil Spellbomb costs :1: to cast and only tapping to activate...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
I think that the nihil spellbomb is probably right, however, I will continue to run japanese chronicles tormod's crypt because Jap Chronicles is better than anything in a new border.
Just call me sub-optimal. I would say in general don't worry too much about this card, and keep note of the times it would have mattered one way or the other.
Koby, once again way to get the deck out there. I think that after cutting the LED a way to discard cards for welder in the form of izzet charm is nice, and sundering titan is interesting. I still don't want to go down from 3 intuitions, i find the card to be bonkers.
Last thing i noticed, you are only on 19 (!) lands, i know you are playing 3 opals and 3 grim monoliths but that is still 25 mana sources to my 26. Did you ever feel light on mana, or want the academy ruins?
I am a bit confused about how you don't race 2 goyfs with your wurmcoil though. Don't you just sit back and block til you hit welder or combo pieces. They can't attack profitably so until they have a flyer you can sit back (though if they have a flyer i see the issue).
The cost may matter in situations when Mox Opal providing mana through metalcraft would be a make or break situation. I think it has less than 5% impact on whether you play Spellbomb or Crypt.Quote:
Originally Posted by merfolkotpt
That was my ideas as well - Thirst for Knowledge or Izzet Charm could both fit. Charm is a little tricker to cast due to double mana cost, but is also more flexible.Quote:
Koby, once again way to get the deck out there. I think that after cutting the LED a way to discard cards for welder in the form of izzet charm is nice, and sundering titan is interesting. I still don't want to go down from 3 intuitions, i find the card to be bonkers.
I only felt constrained against Thalia and Wasteland/Port. Usually never had a problem, and if I did it was getting to 6 mana for TA+Wurmcoil, or just casting the Wurmcoil.Quote:
Last thing i noticed, you are only on 19 (!) lands, i know you are playing 3 opals and 3 grim monoliths but that is still 25 mana sources to my 26. Did you ever feel light on mana, or want the academy ruins?
I guess the situation at hand was a bit worse for sitting on Wurmcoil. I was at around 10 life facing a single Goyf and single DRS. I attack to go to 16 and put him at 12. At EOT, he drains me [9], attacks (5/6) [9], then casts a second Goyf and second DRS. If I don't attack, I'm dead in 2 turns to DRS activations. Thus, I needed to pressure him. Along this, I recognized I punted away a win, so I was feeling frustrated with my poor decision, and likely miscounting the turns I had left.Quote:
I am a bit confused about how you don't race 2 goyfs with your wurmcoil though. Don't you just sit back and block til you hit welder or combo pieces. They can't attack profitably so until they have a flyer you can sit back (though if they have a flyer i see the issue).
A deck like Punishing Loam might be likely to have Chalice on 1 vs. 20 blast/grindstone/welder/top.dec ... crypt would be better in those situations ...
Usually don't have an issue with Chalice @ 1; Transmute Artifact fixes that rather easily. As does Wurmcoil Engine beatdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Against punishing loam, or punishing Jund i really miss the blood moons out of the board in your list Koby. That is my biggest surprise factor. So much so that i didn't even really notice at first, because it seems so crazy to me to not have access. I don't know about the meta you faced, but i simply cannot beat Jund and Shardless bug without Blood Moon.
I agree with blood moon. Just too many auto wins. I play 3 in the board and I swear I want to play 4 sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by merfolkotpt
In regards to koby's list though. I'm trying out the izzet charm in place of my singleton LED. The three modes are all relevant and the looting is comparable to LED GY dump. It's also another blue card to pitch to FoW which I really like.
Played the deck last night at our LGS. Went 2-2 meh. No revaluations discovered, but the player has to get better with the deck doh! Especially with mulligans.
I did get beat by elves... Damn progenitus. That's pretty hard to beat, since you want bridge in that matchup too, but the. You need to win with wurmcoil engine. Anyone have any good ideas as elves gets popular again? Am I missing anything?
Unless they have two progenituses (progeniti?) you can still win the game with the combo. The progenitus just becomes the only card left in their library. Then they draw it, then the next turn they have no cards to draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish
It is a surprisingly hard deck to play, with welder interactions and tutors, there are a lot of lines that are not immediately apparent. I just would jam game against some tempo deck (RUG or RWU) until you have a 50% MU there and then start testing against the rest of the format.
Congrats on your result Koby. Also good deck-tech.
Well normally, 1 turn is all Elves needs. As you can see in Koby's feature match, in G2 he was on 1 life when he combo'ed. 1 turn can make all the difference, since they will usually have a bunch of creatures in play already.Quote:
Originally Posted by merfolkotpt
While I think that 2 alterante win cons (2 WCE) is too much preboard, I'm pretty certain that only 5 tutors (3 TA and 2 Intuition) is not enough. TA is the best card in the deck and the reason we play 3 Grim Monolith, so I think it should be a 4 of.
I also can't believe that Nihil Spellbomb is correct MD. Crypt is just so much better when you Transmute for it, e.g. T2 against Dredge or Reanimator by saccing a land. It's the reason why GY-dependent decks are a very good matchup G1. It's even more true if you run Academy Ruins. I even tutored for it against Storm when he T2 Burning Wished for Past in Flames. I wouldn't want to trade that for the off chance of drawing a card (3 sources is not enough to cycle it consistently). If you have, say, an Underground Sea as well, then it should be good, but I don't think we want to stretch the mana base for that.
+1 on the moons!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish
Regarding mulligans: I've come to the conclusion that the deck mulligans extremely well. I've won games with as little as 4 cards in hand. G1 against unknown I usually mulligan every hand that doesn't have the combo or a combo piece plus a tutor (or at least a piece and a top). Of course that varies if you know what you are up against or in G2 where you want to mull for hate (e.g. blood moon) or keep hands with more protection (e.g. spellskite) but less gas.
Unless they have two progenituses (progeniti?) you can still win the game with the combo. The progenitus just becomes the only card left in their library. Then they draw it, then the next turn they have no cards to draw.
Is this absolutely correct? It doesn't create an intimate loop due to the fact it never goes to the yard. That's how I understood it.
Grindstone will only continue to mill if there are exactly 2 cards milled. Progenitus will continue to get shuffled into the deck until it's the last card. Then, since only one card is milled, Grindstone will stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish
And after stone stops Pro goes back into the library, leaving one card behind. They get an extra turn out of Pro, but I have never seen that matter.
Thanks! This is good to know
Mini report of a 5 round tournament.
R1 vs Jund: I win G1 and lose G2 and G3 due to infinite removals (in G2 he played 7 removal over 8 turns...) 1-2
R2 vs Affinity: I win easily both matches in the first three turns 2-0
R3 vs dredge: I win both games, the second thanks to a topdecked spellbomb that stops him from going off next turn 2-0
R4 vs Dark Maverick: StP, decay, GSZ for qasali, discard... I lose both games to infinite stream of removals 0-2
R5 vs Patriot: I win one game but lost the other two (in G3 I was hiding under a bridge but manage to not see a land for more than 10 turns with three active tops while my opponent manages to draw 2 STP and 4 lightning bolts to kill all my creatures and myself...) 1-2
I can confirm Koby's data: this deck is really weak to fair decks with 7+ pieces of removals, which is kinda strange for a combo deck...
Note that plan B (wurmcoil) wasn't useful because against Jund abrut decay destroyed monolith before I could use it with transmute artifact and killed my welders; W decks simply have StP.
I think the deck needs to be adjusted to fight those strategies, maybe with another plan B: what do you think?
Abrupt decay shouldn't be a problem because of welder. 7 removal over 8 turns is an anomaly, you can't judge results based on that one match.
Bring in spellskite outta the board. I ran 3 and it was an all star vs removal!
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Has Lightning Greaves been tested as a solution for removal + Welder acceleration?
I am very open to suggestions for an alternate plan B, however the Wurmcoil was great for me so far. BUG and Jund almost cannot beat a resolved WCE. As you said, they can decay a Grim Monolith to stop it, but then again, they need their Decays for Blood Moon, the combo, Welders and so on. It's not like they don't have any other targets. Of course StoP is a problem against decks playing white. Dark Maverick sounds very hard to beat, at the GP last year I lost to Maverick and Punishing Maverick on day 2. Spellskite and Blood Moon are really key against fair 3 color decks with lots of removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
GP DC Results
Here's the list I registered:
Creatures:10
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Spells:30
1 Izzet Charm
2 Mox Opal
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Brainstorm
4 Grindstone
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Grim Monolith
4 Transmute Artifact
3 Intuition
4 Force of Will
Lands:20
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:15
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Spellskite
3 Blood Moon
3 Ensnaring Bridge
There it is. Overall I was very happy with the performance. I was knocked out of day 2 in rought 8 going 5-3. I've only been piloting this version of painter for about a month now, and I'm sure I made some blunders, though I can't really look back and pick out any that cost me a match. My losses came from "just getting beat". My losses came from what I thought were compitent players who drew and played the right cards at the right time and came out on top. My deck never "screwed" me nor do I think I punted any game.
Games:
Round 1: Shardless BUG 1-2 (loss)
This match was grueling. Went almost the whole match length grinding removal and threats back and forth. In the end on curve hyms, thoughtseizes, and abrupt decays just got him there. Overall I feel like with moons in the sideboard, and spellskites this match should be in our favor slightly.
Round 2: Sneak Attack 2-0 (win)
The big bully on the block coming into this event, with TNN decks being somewhat a question. I thought this may be a tough matchup with the Emrakuls, and was pretty nervous after seeing, island, ponder, volc, brainstorm... yep gotta be show and tell. Turn 4 he resolves a S&T, winning the back and forth counter war into an Emrakul. One of the few times my WCE felt inadequate. Game: Loss.
Game 2-3 go a little different. I bring in 3 bridge, 3 flusterstorm, 2 crypt. Counter a few things, land a bridge either cast or via SnT and they're in trouble. I eventually land 2 and 3 bridges between welder and intuition and its game over. I actually feel very comfortable with this matchup now. (disclaimer: I also played SnT/Sneak Attack for a long time and know the deck in and out)
Round 3: Manaless Ichorid 2-0 (win)
Player gives it away with die win and "I'll draw". Muligan to 5 due to slow hands and whooops! Look its my 1 of tormod's crypt. Play Grindstone then crypt and opponent concedes the game. (no cards to scoop). Game 2 goes crypt into turn 3/4 wurmcoil engine. Match lasted about 10 minutes. This should be an easy win with all our grave hate for eldrazi.
Round 4: Sneak Attack 2-0 (win)
Opponent is tardy and recieves a game 1 loss. I combo off on turn 3 (my board: welder/painter/grindstone) revealing that he's on sneak attack. Hmm... ok. Next turn I play Intuition opponents EOT for crypt plus stuff and win on turn 4. Sneak attack IS a deck! I will be leaving Crypt in the MD for a long time now! Never even a dead card with Mox Opal/Welder/Transmute anyway.
Round 5: Nic Fit 2-0 (win)
Combo turn 3/turn4. Find out he's not playing abrupt decay. Not much to report.
Round 6: Jund 2-0 (win)
Combo early game 1 with no opossing disruption. Game 2 I play T1 welder, T2 Monolith into Spellskite and Grindstone. T3 Painter. T4 combo with spellskite protecting.
Round 7: UB Tezzerator 1-2 (loss)
Well I'm feeling pretty good now, notice not a single game loss since round 2. I lose to chalice games 1 and 3. He counters any answer I have to it. This I believe is a very close matchup, but an early chalice before we can stick welder really slows us down.
Round 8: RUG Delver 0-2 (loss)
OUCH! My opponent just has everything he needs both games. Well that happens, and I shake and wish him good luck with his "win and in" round 9.
Thanks to all my opponents. Everyone that I played made the day a blast and all were gracious winners or losers after the match. I am excited to continue minor tweaks and progressing this deck. The deck just feels powerful, and not too fragile. Has alot of answers, and proactive threats. Love the deck!
What I want to try:
MD: -1 mox opal, +1 LED. There were times I just really wanted 3 free many (not really the discard). Mox opal was so-so most of day, but was amazing a few times. Cried when I drew a second.
SB: -1 Nihil Spellbomb, +1 Ratchet bomb. Vs Sneak Attack I only brought in 2 crypt. I wanted to counter and lock them out well before going for the combo and couldn't bring out enough stuff to justify 4 GY hate pieces.
Any news on how the Izzet Charm was? UR seems like its difficult to cast sometimes. As protection, it doesn't seem very reliable the turn you go off (I rarely find myself having two mana available the turn I combo). Randomly killing a dude sounds good, though I like Pyrite Spellbomb better for that purpose since its tutorable. Maybe another Top would be better in that slot?
I really only got to use it as faithless looting a few times... which was pretty good. The biggest reason I play it is because it does 3 relevant things that I can choose from depending on the board/my hand... But more importantly also pitches to FOW!Quote:
Originally Posted by TkDodo
Think of it as... A fifth brainstorm (kinda), a fourth red blast/force (kinda), or an LED (kinda).
As far as top goes, I like 2 of. Between brainstorm, intuition, and transmute you shouldn't have to be digging that often. It's really a slow grindy card. This deck wants to be fast, and like other blue combo decks only slows down when you need protection backup.
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