[Deck] Natural Order RUG

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Ponder
3 Daze
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendillion Clique
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
4 Natural Order
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Progenitus
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember

1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Golgari Charm

I was bored and had some fun with this on Cockatrice. I didn't get to face Miracles, but I'm not sure Jace belongs here. I never cast him. Overall it seems like an ok deck. Maybe not tier one, but you could probably take down a local with this. The best part of playing BUG colors is that all of your opponents assume you're playing Shardless. I had a Grixis player name Shardless Agent with his therapy and then I revealed Clique and NO. :smile:

playing the following list at a weekly tomorrow

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Daze
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
4 Natural Order
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Progenitus
2 Spell Pierce
1 Chain Lightning
1 Ponder
SB: 1 Bonfire of the Damned
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Pithing Needle


Gonna have a lot of fun. If I still find lands to be problematic I am going to HAVE to put 2 wasteland into the main.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by monovfox

Gonna have a lot of fun. If I still find lands to be problematic I am going to HAVE to put 2 wasteland into the main.

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List looks pretty good. Have fun, and be sure to let us know how it went. :smile:

Don't focus too much on Lands. It doesn't see that much play, and you have Pithing Needle. If it's really popular in your meta, you could perhaps add Surgical Extraction or so, but try to keep the hate as versatile as possible. :wink:

Went okay, 2-1, beat miracles and eldrazi and lost to a miracles player who was 1) knew what I was on before game 1 (he's my friend and saw the list beforehand) and knew my 61 and 2) I had to mulligain to 5 in game 2.

Switching the following sideboard for thursday/next week. Still deciding between spell pierce and pyroblast.

SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Bonfire of the Damned
SB: 1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
SB: 1 Spell Pierce

Played at a local event tonight. Went 1-2 (due to my own misplays/bad luck).


I played against sneak and show, infect, and storm. I beat sneak and show in 3 games (dropping prog off of show and tell, which is probably the best play we can make in that matchup. Hydra > demon). I lost to infect 0-2 (I got immensely unlucky in games 1 and two, drawing 3 natural orders and a jace in game 1 and drawing prog, ruric thar, and 3 pyroblasts without any actual removal with a and of 2 brainstorm, a ponder, 2 lands, and a pyroblast). I lost to storm 1-2 when he adnaeseumed at instant speed in response to clique, when in reality I should have held force of will and clique in hand with mana to us relic of progenitus. Basically greedy play.


I think Infect is still a pretty terrible matchup. They're basically a faster version of us with a worse eldrazi and a worse shardless matchup (both matchups that are pretty good for us). I always felt in control during the games I played, regardless of outcome, and I think I'm coming to understand how to properly play blue (as where I didn't before jamming a lot of matches with this deck). Sideboard could STILL use more work, and I think I'm moving up to 2 maindeck dryad arbor, as he's just a hose when you're playing grindy matchup where you accidentally topdeck Natural Order. I also might play an elvish spirit guide in a flex spot. Someone mentioned the merits of elvish spirit guide to go for turn 2 prog, and at worst it sacrifices to natural order lategame. I might try it out come tuesday

Current sideboard
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 krosan grip
1 ancient grudge
1 umezawa's jitte
2 kitchen finks
2 relic of progenitus
1 bonfire of the damned
2 grim lavamancer
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed


The idea of playing different natural order targets really appeals to me, so I'm going to experiment with those in the coming weeks. I'm looking for something that miracles literally cannot beat (and I'm not afraid to side in painters servant to grab griselbrand). I think in the fair game the deck is mostly fine, I really want to dedicate more sideboard hate to miracles, but it's so difficult to hate that deck out.

Cards that can help beat Miracles include:
- REB/Pyroblast
- Pithing Needle (for Top)
- Planeswalkers (Jace, Garruk Relentless, Xenagos)
- Reclamation Sage (nice Zenith target, versatile too)
- Vendilion Clique (EOT cast, then attack their Jace)

If you encounter a lot of Miracles, I'd recommend you playtest the matchup as much as you can. Too much dedicated hate in the sideboard will eventually cause you to lose other matchups, and I don't think it's necessary to dedicate a lot of slots to Miracles, since there are so many options for cards that are already good against other matchups as well.

Your latest list:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus /13

4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
1 Sylvan Library
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Chain Lightning /29

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest /19 (total: 61)

My suggested sideboard would be something in this order:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Garruk Relentless /15 (minus one card, not sure what to cut though)

Siding against Miracles would be something like this:
-1 Chain, -4 Bolt, -3 Daze, +2 Neelde, +2 REB, +2 Fluster, +1 Sage, +1 Garruk

Hope this helps.

Yeah, that really helped. I'll let you know how it goes in a couple days ^_^ ! I'm not running scavenging ooze since I think it's a bit slow/fragile for what it does.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by monovfox

I think Infect is still a pretty terrible matchup. They're basically a faster version of us with a worse eldrazi and a worse shardless matchup (both matchups that are pretty good for us). I always felt in control during the games I played, regardless of outcome, and I think I'm coming to understand how to properly play blue (as where I didn't before jamming a lot of matches with this deck). Sideboard could STILL use more work, and I think I'm moving up to 2 maindeck dryad arbor, as he's just a hose when you're playing grindy matchup where you accidentally topdeck Natural Order. I also might play an elvish spirit guide in a flex spot. Someone mentioned the merits of elvish spirit guide to go for turn 2 prog, and at worst it sacrifices to natural order lategame. I might try it out come tuesday

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I talked with a RUG NO player on Sunday at GP Columbus. He was very enthusiastic about the deck, and mirrored your thoughts that Infect is a bad matchup - he said those were his main losses. He had a Hornet Queen in the side for Lands/Emrakul decks, and also a Ruric Thar for Storm, Infect, and others. He mentioned making specific sideboard slots for Infect, mainly thinking about something like Forked Bolt or Melira to help. He did have a misplay where NO into Ruric Thar would have won a match - he'd forgotten that the guy has reach.

His list had Wastelands - what are the general thoughts on those in the deck? He had Dazes, no Spell Pierces though, and said that often his opponents would put him on RUG Delver initially, and that even with 19 lands (4 of them Wastelands) and 3 Hierarchs, he felt like he flooded out often.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by square_two

I talked with a RUG NO player on Sunday at GP Columbus. He was very enthusiastic about the deck, and mirrored your thoughts that Infect is a bad matchup - he said those were his main losses. He had a Hornet Queen in the side for Lands/Emrakul decks, and also a Ruric Thar for Storm, Infect, and others. He mentioned making specific sideboard slots for Infect, mainly thinking about something like Forked Bolt or Melira to help. He did have a misplay where NO into Ruric Thar would have won a match - he'd forgotten that the guy has reach.

His list had Wastelands - what are the general thoughts on those in the deck? He had Dazes, no Spell Pierces though, and said that often his opponents would put him on RUG Delver initially, and that even with 19 lands (4 of them Wastelands) and 3 Hierarchs, he felt like he flooded out often.

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How did he do? Did you happen to get his list? He's pretty much spot on. I've been considering wasteland but don't know where it fits in without opening the Dec up to wasteland.

I would love to talk to him

Quote:

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Originally Posted by monovfox

How did he do? Did you happen to get his list? He's pretty much spot on. I've been considering wasteland but don't know where it fits in without opening the Dec up to wasteland.

I would love to talk to him

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Here was his list as I scribbled it down:

2 Dryad Arbor (he was adamant about 2)
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire//Ice
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

side:
1 Hornet Queen
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Firespout
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 ?

He said he wanted to make room for a second Clique main, as well as adding some Git Probes. Talked about maybe the Probes looking odd, but having early hand knowledge could really help with early sequencing as well as knowing what to counter. Daze was most sided out (not surprisingly).

For the side, he said he liked everything from Hornet Queen down to Krosan Grip. The last few would be replaced by Engineered Explosives, Tormod's Crypts, Forked Bolt, and possibly Melira. The Explosives and Crypts would better grow the Goyfs.

That's all I have. I don't know how he did in the main event, but judging from him playing a friend of mine in the last round of the sunday super series, he might have been 5-3 in that. Yeah I wish he would drop by.

I'm definitely on the same wavelength as him when it comes to arbor. I think 3 clique is necessary, and I think he's starting to realize that

In his fire//ice slots I have a ponder and a top. In his Jace slots I have a lavamancer and a jace.

While I suppose Melira would be a fairly definitive answer to Infect, another option ya'll could consider that isn't quite so narrow and has more application (and is also more easily GSZ'able) is Granger Guildmage. The guy provides a pseudo-Grim Lavamancer effect and is particularly excellent against any deck running 1-toughness creatures (DNT, Elves, Goblins, and yes, Infect). Just an option to throw out there.

I don't play much RUG Order now. But I have played almost every version of the Natural Order Archetype at some point. I am currently on Shardless Bug Order.

As far as Natural Order targets, I think Ruric Thar is a great addition to the board. I play it in my board, the only way to get rid of it is if they have removal in hand. But, I think Hornet Queen and Archangel are a mistake. I also play Hoof main in mine, but I do have far more creatures available to me maindeck.

The one advantage to Rug is playing low costed counters and playing GSZ. I would take advantage of GSZ targets like Dryad Millitant or Rec Sage or something like that to play in the board. I also would play no less than 2 cliques in the main. It is everything that you want in a creature besides being able to be sacced to order.

I think Fire//Ice is too clunky. I would look at something like forked bolt for more removal or probes to help with sculpting a game plan.

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Originally Posted by Juice11

I think Fire//Ice is too clunky. I would look at something like forked bolt for more removal or probes to help with sculpting a game plan.

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Clunky, perhaps, but also Blue. If this deck intends to play Force of Will, it needs to maintain a reasonable number of Blue spells. I actually like the added utility of having the Ice side if Fire isn't needed against something like, say, a combo deck.

Fire/ice doesn't seem terrible. Worst comes to worst you're drawing into gas by using it eot. I tried glass eyed selkir today, but I felt like I might have been better served by fire/ice to tap down angler or win the air war with clique against shardless and grixis.

My record tonight was as follows

Grixis win (2-1) spells pierce really showing how bad it is hear
Eldrazi lose (1-2) spell pierce bad again, I also should just mulligain to natural order in this MU. I didn't and was deservedly punished.
Death and taxes win (2-0). G1 I got a strong hand that generated me 6 mana on turn 3 with a natural order. There was nothing he could do. G2 I had needle, double force, two basics and a ponder with a natural order in hand. Easy game. Easy life

Going to run sideboard bloodmoon for eldrazi and shardless. Seems pretty neat. Might take a play from the rug delver thread and sideboard some orbs for miracles.

This deck is very good and a serious contender.

Also infect is still a shitty matchup. GGWP.

I've been play-testing the following list:

3 Noble Hierarch
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Progenitus
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire // Ice

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island (I wonder if perhaps these should be swapped, i.e. 3 Trop and 2 Volc)
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Wasteland

SB:
1 Umezawa's Jitte (this and/or the Guildmage could maybe be Izzet Staticaster instead)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Granger Guildmage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm (while Rough//Tumble saves your Cliques, you want Pyroclasm to hit flipped Delvers and other flying threats -- it's important to time casting this spell at just the right moment to avoid too much damage to your own board)

Observations:

The deck is a lot of fun to play, and could definitely sweep a local tournament with a little luck and some tight play skill. But to be entirely honest, I don't think this archetype is quite capable of consistently beating the Tier 1 meta-game. Ordering for Progenitus actually feels comparatively weak in the modern format, and I sort of wonder if there should be a different or additional N.O. target in the main deck, perhaps something that can help definitely beat Miracles.

3 Clique seems necessary. You want it for your Plan B Exalted + Bolt beatdown plan as an evasive threat to get past ground blockers (and carried the SB Jitte like a champ), and the card also serves multiple purposes for the Plan A Natural Order plan: it can chuck back a Progenitus or other N.O. target stuck in your hand in case you don't have a Brainstorm or Jace handy; it can be cast at EOT to make sure the coast is clear or at least swipe away any counterspells so you can resolve Natural Order; it increases your Blue count to a more acceptable range for consistently casting FoW (also why I am running Fire // Ice instead of alternative removal spells); it disrupts Terminus from Miracles as an 'out'; it disrupts other combo decks to maybe grant you enough time to kill them before they can 'go off'; it's one of the best ways of killing other Planeswalkers, especially Jace and Liliana of the Veil. Clique is a Swiss Army Knife, and for this deck 3 copies seems correct and I'm almost tempted to run the 4th.

I am playing a copy of both Basic Island and Forest just to avoid dying to Blood Moon and Back to Basics; with the help of a Noble Hierarch we should be able to cast all of the cards in our deck even under one of these enchantments. While Wasteland is good, this deck is not really dedicated to mana denial and it's being run more as a method of keeping your opponent from reaching their end-game 4-drops before we do. It's also helpful for getting rid of utility and combo lands that present problems, e.g. Glacial Chasm, Tabernacle, Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage.

I cut the 4th Goyf for a Scavenging Ooze, this is just to give us a main deck answer to graveyard strategies and also can grant us incidental life gain and disrupt stuff like Snapcaster Mage, DRS, Reanimator/Dredge, Loam, Punishing Fire, etc. It gets backed up with the 2 Surgical Extractions in the board. Scooze can occasionally grow to outsize opposing Goyfs or other threats; keep Mongoose small; also if deployed and activated early enough, can prevent an opponent from casting stuff like Tombstalker, Gurmag Angler or Cabal Therapy (flashback) and Cabal Ritual (threshold). So I think it's justified.

Only 1 copy of Jace because he's yet another 4-drop in a deck that's running Daze. That said, he's so amazing at doing what he does that he deserves at least 1 slot. Against a deck like BUG Delver, him resolving is practically just as much an "I win" spell as Natural Order.

The only other card I want to fit in the 75 somewhere is Sylvan Library. Not sure yet where to put it.

The sideboard is by no means perfect and is really just my idea of what is needed to beat most of the Tier decks right now. What I'd really like are some more super-powerful Natural Order targets to make the card more worthwhile and a competitive option for modern Legacy. Any ideas? Also, Winter Orb could be another spicy option that is essentially 1-sided as another poster mentioned.

The other idea I am toying with is dropping Red for White. This would obviously change quite a few aspects of the deck, especially the sideboard, but the main plan would still be kept relatively the same. Anyone have any comments as to how White affects how this deck plays?

So yeah. RUG Order is kind of like my "fun" deck that I might jam at some smaller local events and FNMs, but I'd rather play something like RUG Delver for a huge tournament like a Grand Prix (which is what I did play last weekend at GP Columbus, going 11-4... if only I didn't face DNT, perhaps the deck's worst matchup, 4 times on Day 1!!)

Honestly you don't need pyroclasm to beat delver at all. Usually a beatdown plan with clique is enough. You run 7 tarmogoyfs (though I think 4 goyf 3 zenith is better due to naturally drawing into GSZ being worse than naturally drawing into goyf. That being said I also run a peer through depths, I forgot to mention, which is weird that I forgot to mention it because the card is total house in every matchup (it can filter you at instant speed into natural order, force, daze, bolt, etc. through chalice on 1 which is a HUGE deal against eldrazi).

Miracles I have found to be around 50/50 with the rug version and 40/60 with the bug version (while abrupt decay might be good, pyroblast/friends out of the sideboard is better).


I actually think progenitus is super strong in the current format before/after a current turn threshold depending on the MU. In grindier matchups like Grixis you just draw Order and win, same goes for shardless. Dnt and Eldrazi actually cannot beat Prog (well, eldrazi before a certain turn. 2 reality smashers beforre turn 3/4 is Gg), which is nice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by monovfox

I also run a peer through depths

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Don't you think Impulse is better? Yes, you get to look at 1 less card, but it will *always* get you something, and sometimes you're digging for another land or creature and not a spell.

edit: also, main deck Trygon Predator seems pretty cool, as does Edric, Spymaster of Trest. Anything that has that kind of utility and is searchable via GSZ (and Natural Order) seems worth considering.

I tried predator and he always died due to miracles plethora of snapcaster mages, terminus, and swords to plowshares.

edric seems pretty slow, and we don't really want to play lots of creatures out unless it's against Grixis.

Also here are some dumb ideas that will never work against miracles but are worth mentioning because if storm can cast a 7 mana creature, so can we

Nivmizzet, Dracogenius

Stormbreath Dragon

Teferi (and a cavern of souls in the sideboard)

4th clique

Ruric Thar (against ponder miracles)

Cry on their sensei's divining top so it is no longer tournament legal

hope//pray they don't hit the 2nd terminus

Hypersonic dragon (instant speed natural order in response to an STP doesn't seem bad)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by monovfox

I tried predator and he always died due to miracles plethora of snapcaster mages, terminus, and swords to plowshares.

edric seems pretty slow, and we don't really want to play lots of creatures out unless it's against Grixis.

Also here are some dumb ideas that will never work against miracles but are worth mentioning because if storm can cast a 7 mana creature, so can we

Nivmizzet, Dracogenius

Stormbreath Dragon

Teferi (and a cavern of souls in the sideboard)

4th clique

Ruric Thar (against ponder miracles)

Cry on their sensei's divining top so it is no longer tournament legal

hope//pray they don't hit the 2nd terminus

Hypersonic dragon (instant speed natural order in response to an STP doesn't seem bad)

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There's another option for battling Miracles: Switch from red splash to black splash.
This gives us Abrupt Decay, which is pretty neat.

You also forgot one card: Pithing Needle.
If Top is your nightmare, just add Needles, cast them and then proceed to turn your Goyf sideways.

Edit@wcm8: Yes, Impulse is better. If I REALLY want to find Natural Order asap, I'd play Personal Tutor though.
Personal Tutor is not a great card, but you can justify running one or two for matchups that rely 90% on NOPro.
(Side note: this idea works best in black splash versions, since Personal Tutor also finds you Duress to protect the combo.)