The September 20th 2011 Banned / Restricted List Update Reaction Thread

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Originally Posted by Zilla

He's not, but if he was it would be a shitty comparison, because Brainstorm and FoW have no bearing whatsoever on an aggro player's choice to play 1cc spells. Misstep alone is what impacted that choice, and not by very much. Zoo is rife with 1cc spells and remained the top aggro deck in the format while Misstep was legal.

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Thank you. Just to clarify, I'm not comparing Misstep to Mana Drain. As Tammit pointed out, I was just trying to give an example of a card that did warp the format without putting up huge numbers. It'd be closer to say I was comparing Vial and Mana Drain, but even that's not really correct; I'm not prepared to make claims one way or the other as to what Vial does to the format. I just wanted to point out that it could be a warping factor without being found in more than 19% of the T8's.

Honestly, I'm not even entirely certain I like the term "warp the format" as there is a very negative implication there. You could say that the loss of Moxen in Legacy vs. Vintage warps the format towards creature decks and makes Swords to Plowshares more powerful than Mystic Remora. And you'd be absolutely correct, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, for those of us that gave up on T1 around Mirrodin because we got really sick of losing on turn 1 with regularity, the difference between Vintage and Legacy is one is fun and exciting and the other is even more ridiculously expensive and kind of lame. I happen to like that particular warp. So yeah, we need to come up with a better term than warping. Forcing the format to adapt, perhaps?

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Originally Posted by Draener

I don't agree with the above with the above mentality that since we have so many broken 1 drops in Legacy, a free way to counter 1 drops should be banned. It would seem to be that decks would, over time, naturally gravitate to playing more powerful 2+ cost casting spells. I think this would be a good thing, as there is a much larger variety of playable cards once you don't have to worry about dying on turn 3. Spell snare, however, does throw a kink in this plan.

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You already saw it. As I've said a couple of times in various places, the reason that NO RUG and Stoneblade did so well in comparison to the rest of the field is that they got mileage out of Mental Misstep while being cold to it. NO RUG doesn't really care if you counter their Brainstorm or their Grim Lavamancer. As long as they can chain Tarmogoyfs with GSZ and cast Natural Order, they're happy. Stoneblade is happy as long as they can resolve Stoneforge Mystic and Jace. Blue decks that weren't either of those two would've been better served by running Spell Pierce instead of Mental Misstep. But the fact that Misstep was "ZOMG SO GOOD" blinded people to the fact that it wasn't necessarily the best card for their deck. I mean, Wild Nacatl is leagues better than Nimble Mongoose, but you wouldn't try and shove it into a Canadian Thresh shell when 'goose fits the deck better.

I do believe that given time, the metagame would've adjusted to the card. Not necessarily to where it was pre-Misstep, it was strong enough to have a lasting impact. But as I said in the 'banner' thread, I think Green Sun's Zenith has actually had a bigger impact on the format than Misstep. But it's not blue, so people don't look at it as hard. But if you look at the format since Zenith was released, it's managed to kill Counterbalance decks, single handedly bring Iona/Retainers back (Maverick), changed the flavor of NO decks from Bant to RUG, vaulted big Zoo into supremacy over Cat Sligh and improved Elves by leaps and freaking bounds (Elves is still underplayed, but that might change with Misstep going away, the deck is better than people give it credit for). Talk about a card that's changed the face of the format.

I'd also like to make a point about this "diversity" issue. I just went to SCG Atlanta (drove up there with 4eak). In 9 rounds I faced 7 different decks: 2 UW stoneblade, 2 Merfolk, 1 thresh, 1 burn, 1 elves NO Pro, 1 painter grindstone homebrew variant, and 1 deadguy ale (which is what I was playing). I didn't face them but there were also NO RUG, zoo, hive mind, team america, maverick, reanimator, and even tendrils. Needless to say, there was also some dredge.

Now, was UW stoneblade over-represented? Yes, but this can hardly be blamed on MM. And despite stoneblade, the fact of the matter is, the MM-soaked meta was highly diverse. Combine Draener's erudite observation about the sort of person who enjoys 8 rounds of diversity with the fact that MM didn't even seem to have that impact on the diversity, and there's no real argument to be made on that front.

Stoneblade and NO RUG were indeed dominant in opens, but maybe that's just because competitive players want to play the most competitive decks, and those were the ones. In any environment there will always be a few that rise to the top statistically. They would be regardless of whether they ran MM or spell pierce. But people who like Legacy and even who play competitively will always play what they want to. All you have to do to see that is walk around the tables at an open. Does that mean any Legacy archetype you would see amongst that diversity is a viable bet for a place at the top? No, but that's not an actual reflection of diversity of play in a format, merely the current state of the meta. If that's your concern perhaps constructed is not what you're looking for.

The way the Europeans are talking the Americans are a bunch of net decking, lazy, twits, who could never even try to adapt to the new meta. Europeans were light years ahead of us?

Glad to hear something to contradict this perceived stereotypes of Americans.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

The way the Europeans are talking the Americans are a bunch of net decking, lazy, twits, who could never even try to adapt to the new meta. Europeans were light years ahead of us?

Glad to hear something to contradict this perceived stereotypes of Americans.

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You remember a year or so back when they were up in arms about mystical tutor? Or when Vengevine was doing well over here? We called them backwards for not dealing with it then, and they get to do it to us during survival and now.

The meta's are just different.

Yesterday I played on Trice (cockatrice.de) and all I was facing was combo.

I met Belcher, Infectstompy, Elves

I really hope this is the new meta, so Wizards will make an emergency unban.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

Yesterday I played on Trice (cockatrice.de) and all I was facing was combo.

I met Belcher, Infectstompy, Elves

I really hope this is the new meta, so Wizards will make an emergency unban.

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Ha, "emergency unbanning". I love it.

I seriously doubt it will end up like that. People are just taking advantage of the metas inability to deal with change. No one has top 8'ed lately with combo hate. lol Anything else would requite actual thought.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

Yesterday I played on Trice (cockatrice.de) and all I was facing was combo.

I met Belcher, Infectstompy, Elves

I really hope this is the new meta, so Wizards will make an emergency unban.

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There will be plenty of combo in the new format, but it won't dominate. There was plenty of combo before Misstep, but it never dominated (and if you ignorantly think it did, find hard data instead of extrapolating). The coast is also clear for Stifle.dec and CB.dec to come back, and those two archetypes are the best at keeping combo down.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

Yesterday I played on Trice (cockatrice.de) and all I was facing was combo.

I met Belcher, Infectstompy, Elves

I really hope this is the new meta, so Wizards will make an emergency unban.

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Well they didn't ban any of those decks for the years and years before MM.

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

The coast is also clear for CB.dec to come back

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Is it? Green Sun's Zenith exists, Show and Tell exists, and Goblins/Merfolk have always been problematic for Counterbalance. The thing that will keep combo down will be dedicated sideboard hate and inexperienced pilots. It's the same thing that keeps Ichorid down. The best combo players will still win through the hate, but it will never dominate because winning through hate is difficult.

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

Is it? Green Sun's Zenith exists, Show and Tell exists, and Goblins/Merfolk have always been problematic for Counterbalance. The thing that will keep combo down will be dedicated sideboard hate and inexperienced pilots. It's the same thing that keeps Ichorid down. The best combo players will still win through the hate, but it will never dominate because winning through hate is difficult.

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I think Thopters is poised to become a DTB now that it has SFM/Batterskull to both stall and put opponents on a clock. As for the aggro/control CB lists, they probably won't be viable. Dreadstill might make a splash, especially if there are a lot of combo decks.

Didnt read the whole thread! My thoughts: MM replaced some Daze/snares, so no real harm in blue decks.
I have no experience with non blue MM decks, was it really that good in aggro (zoo)? or control (Loam)?, yah u gain some outs vs combo, but you loose some gas vs the rest...

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Originally Posted by HdH_Cthulhu

Didnt read the whole thread! My thoughts: MM replaced some Daze/snares, so no real harm in blue decks.
I have no experience with non blue MM decks, was it really that good in aggro (zoo)? or control (Loam)?, yah u gain some outs vs combo, but you loose some gas vs the rest...

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It wasn't particularly notable in either nonblue aggro (with the exception of Maverick) or nonblue control. It shined in nonblue aggro-control, where it was an amazing tempo element.

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Originally Posted by Zilla

No. It wasn't. That's the point a lot of people seem to be missing. You don't NEED Misstep to answer opposing Missteps unless that Misstep is completely devastating to your gameplan. That's only the case with Storm combo. Literally every other competitive deck in the format can survive having a 1cc spell countered.

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Well, I think it disrupts those gameplans badly enough to really consider playing MMs vs. MMs.

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Originally Posted by Zilla

The fact that Misstep is colorless was its strength, not its flaw. Its flaw was that it was blue and could be pitched to FoW, thereby providing additional strength to the color that needs it the least.

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yes, being colorless is its strength, but I think that made it a dull card without character. Every deck plays it and it counters itself. That's fun till game 2 but no longer.

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Originally Posted by Zilla

There's nothing fundamentally broken about making a 1 for 1 trade for a 1cc card.

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yes, there is if it costs no mana and if it is vialble in every deck.

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Originally Posted by Zilla

The bottom line is that the card slowed the format down significantly. It made control and aggro control stronger, it made fast aggro somewhat weaker, and it made fast combo a lot weaker.

Ultimately, it comes down to personal preference. Do you want to play in a format that favors control over aggro and combo? Then you're probably upset that Misstep is banned. Do you prefer combo and aggro over control? You're probably stoked.

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Actually, I like control and I'd like to see Legacy slowed down, but not at the price of seeing a card like MM in every deck.

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Originally Posted by Zilla

I just think it's wrong to say that it unquestionably deserved banning, because it didn't. Or at least if it did, we didn't have nearly enough data to confirm it. Just because a card is played a great deal doesn't make it a candidate for banning. If it did, we'd have to ban StP, Brainstorm, Goyf, Wasteland and FoW. Legacy is full of strong undercosted cards. Misstep was surely amongst the best of them, but not to the point where the format was degenerate because of it.

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Actually I would like to see how Legacy would do without Goyf. :D

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Originally Posted by joven

Well, I think it disrupts those gameplans badly enough to really consider playing MMs vs. MMs.

yes, being colorless is its strength, but I think that made it a dull card without character. Every deck plays it and it counters itself. That's fun till game 2 but no longer.

yes, there is if it costs no mana and if it is vialble in every deck.

Actually, I like control and I'd like to see Legacy slowed down, but not at the price of seeing a card like MM in every deck.

Actually I would like to see how Legacy would do without Goyf. :D

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Pretty much all I can say to all of this is: you're welcome to your opinion. It's not necessarily wrong, but it's also not fact.

Misstep was very good and was worth considering in a great many Legacy decks. However, there were plenty of viable Legacy decks that did not run them, so it's disingenuous to suggest that they were mandatory.

They were certainly prolific, but that's not necessarily ban-worthy, because there are plenty of strong, undercosted, prolific cards in the format. It's just a very dangerous precedent to set.

I simply think Wizards should have given it more time to see if and how the format would adjust to the card, as it has done for nearly every other card people have wanted banned throughout Legacy's history.

Maybe I'm crazy... but why is it acceptable for Wizards and DCI to be working in the same building. Really!

The ban is purely based upon hate mail.

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Originally Posted by Zilla

Pretty much all I can say to all of this is: you're welcome to your opinion. It's not necessarily wrong, but it's also not fact.

Misstep was very good and was worth considering in a great many Legacy decks. However, there were plenty of viable Legacy decks that did not run them, so it's disingenuous to suggest that they were mandatory.

They were certainly prolific, but that's not necessarily ban-worthy, because there are plenty of strong, undercosted, prolific cards in the format. It's just a very dangerous precedent to set.

I simply think Wizards should have given it more time to see if and how the format would adjust to the card, as it has done for nearly every other card people have wanted banned throughout Legacy's history.

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I understand saying that the banning was too soon, but I think we already saw what the future of the format was: 80% of the top 16 in any tourney would run MM, the other 20% would be Dredge, Aggro Loam, and random oldies-but-goodies that got thru just by the math of chance. (I really wish SCG would do a data rundown on the win percentage of MM decks Vs non-MM decks).

However, I don't agree with you that the banning happened too soon. This isn't 2008 anymore. There's now a major Legacy tournament evey week for the Magic community to get results from and multiple sources for decklists and tourney results. It has already been made clear that MM would become ubiquitous with winning tournaments, much like Survival before it. And while, like Survival, it is possible to trump or play around Misstep, having one card define the top 16 is just plain terrible for the format. I don't see how giving it more time would have changed any outcomes, except that more and more players would get disenfranchised from the game.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

However, I don't agree with you that the banning happened too soon. This isn't 2008 anymore. There's now a major Legacy tournament evey week for the Magic community to get results from and multiple sources for decklists and tourney results. It has already been made clear that MM would become ubiquitous with winning tournaments, much like Survival before it. And while, like Survival, it is possible to trump or play around Misstep, having one card define the top 16 is just plain terrible for the format. I don't see how giving it more time would have changed any outcomes, except that more and more players would get disenfranchised from the game.

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There's an underlying assumption here that people would be disenfranchised by a metagame with a strong Misstep presence, and I think the assumption is incorrect, or is at least a shaky foundation for an argument.

A format rife with Missteps isn't necessarily wrong, it's just different. No one disagrees that Misstep caused a major shift in Legacy's landscape, but a quick read through this thread will show you that plenty of people liked that shift.

Nothing about Misstep breaks any fundamental rules of the game. It doesn't remove player interaction; if anything it encourages it. It's cheap, it's very strong, but it's not broken.

The only thing that really bothers me about a lot of the discussion in this thread is that much of the anti-Misstep crowd characterizes the pro-Misstep crowd as crybabies who don't want to admit that Misstep was fundamentally too strong for the format. I think that stance is bullshit.

It would be a legit point of view if Misstep was actually broken, or if it was actually required in every single deck to be viable, but that just wasn't the case. It's certainly arguable that Misstep's prevalence made the format less fun (and I don't necessarily disagree with that,) but fun is an incredibly subjective yardstick by which to measure ban-worthiness.

Ultimately I think Misstep didn't need banning unless its existence were responsible for a prolonged period of stagnation, and the only way to have known that for certain would be to have given it more time. That said, I'm not particularly sad to see it go, either.

Why is it that (minus Merfolk) Brainstorm is just as ubiquitous but seems to get free pass? The deck that wins in this banning is Merfolk (especially Merfolk players good at going first).

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

The deck that wins in this banning is Merfolk (especially Merfolk players good at going first).

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Exactly, especially since a lot of players (in my experience, anyway) immediately tossed Misstep into the Spell Pierce slot. As a habitual Eva Green player, I do a major happy dance when I see Merfolk (or any blue deck, really) running Misstep over Pierce.

I think it comes back to what Zilla's been saying (echoed occasionally by others) here and elsewhere; it's possible to be premature on the banning argument. Look at Force of Will and Goyf, for which there exist strong arguments and significant evidence to suggest that they're not even knee-jerk inclusions in their respective colors, let alone knee-jerk four-ofs.

I think it bears mentioning also that Erik Lauer did a profoundly awful job of describing the bannings. Aaron Forsythe used to do a good job once upon a time, and I believe I've seen Mike Turian wax eloquent as well, but Lauer's arguments seemed to be "well, we printed something obviously strong that takes work to evade, and who wants to play something that's harder than WoW?" I do, motherfucker. I love having to game-plan and answer hard deckbuilding questions and maneuver through difficult game states.

tl, dr; If I wanted an easy game, I can download Asteroids in one minute. If I wanted to play WoW or Yu-Gi-Oh, I would. Magic is absolutely not supposed to be either of those things, and I really hope they (Wizards and the DCI, collectively) don't fuck it up and take it that way.