[Deck] U/R Delver

I don't think Temporal Mastery will get the Ban-Hammer in Legacy, as I honestly don't see it running away with the show. Control will simply stop it from happening, as Stifle is still in action (to mention one card) and other decks like Maverick will still give you a 4 turn clock to get it done or die.

It's a cool card; and it might prove me wrong, but I don't think the miracle cast will be that awesome.

Player draws Temporal Mastery, you cast Vendilion Clique and remove it from his hand... I just see a lot of ways around it where things like Time Walk can simply be useful right from T1 forward.

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Originally Posted by SupREME-10

I don't think Temporal Mastery will get the Ban-Hammer in Legacy, as I honestly don't see it running away with the show. Control will simply stop it from happening, as Stifle is still in action (to mention one card) and other decks like Maverick will still give you a 4 turn clock to get it done or die.

It's a cool card; and it might prove me wrong, but I don't think the miracle cast will be that awesome.

Player draws Temporal Mastery, you cast Vendilion Clique and remove it from his hand... I just see a lot of ways around it where things like Time Walk can simply be useful right from T1 forward.

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I don't think that Vendilion Clique will be able to stop a card played via Miracle, as the card would already have been cast, and would no longer be in that player's hand (this is simply based on my understanding of the wording). Of course, I could be wrong.

As for the future of Temporal Mastery, we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Kind Regards,
jares

Your understanding is incorrect. Player draws card (the thing they just used a Brainstorm or Jace or some other mechanism to set to the top of their library); Vendilion Clique is then played, the ability triggers as Miracle is not at instant speed, and the Temporal Mastery is set to the bottom of their library and they get to draw another card. Seriously, Control players have been using Vendilion for a long time now, and coupled with things like Karakas they can do some fate-sealing quite often.

You are correct about time being the true test if Temporal Mastery is any good though.

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Originally Posted by SupREME-10

Your understanding is incorrect. Player draws card (the thing they just used a Brainstorm or Jace or some other mechanism to set to the top of their library); Vendilion Clique is then played, the ability triggers as Miracle is not at instant speed, and the Temporal Mastery is set to the bottom of their library and they get to draw another card. Seriously, Control players have been using Vendilion for a long time now, and coupled with things like Karakas they can do some fate-sealing quite often.

You are correct about time being the true test if Temporal Mastery is any good though.

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I was under the impression miracle is triggered at instant speed and/or can be done in response to vendilion clique.

Given it's on their draw step, you should never get priority to cast vendilion clique before they can cast Temporal Mastery, or am I mistaken about this?

Draw step, active player has priority, active player draws his card, upon drawing card (according to the ruling of miracle) he is required to immediately play the card for it's miracle cost if he intends to do so, and then the priority is passed to the opponent to either respond to or play spells at the end of the draw step.

For clarity on my understanding of it:

"You may cast this card for it's Miracle cost when you draw it if it's the first card you drew this turn."

To me this implies that despite it being a sorcery you are capable of playing it at instant speed as you are using an ability of the card that states that you can. Essentially giving a sorcery card conditional flash. This would also imply that, were you to use a SDT and flip it EOT to cast temporal mastery, you'd get a lot more out of your two turns as you'd get 2 untap steps.

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"You may cast this card for it's Miracle cost when you draw it if it's the first card you drew this turn."

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Is this not a triggered ability? Don't triggers need to resolve before their effects can take place? To me it looks like Clique can be used with the Miracle trigger on the stack.

I still read the card as a Sorcery

From the mothership:

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Miracle is a new keyword that allows you to cast some instants and sorceries for very little mana when you draw them.

As you draw an instant or sorcery with miracle, if it's the first card you've drawn this turn, you can immediately reveal it. When you do so, you may cast it for its miracle cost. It doesn't matter whether it's an instant or sorcery; if you choose to cast it, you do so right away, even if it's at a time (such as your draw step) when you couldn't normally cast it. You're not required to reveal a miracle card, even if you could pay for it. You can always choose to just draw it as normal.

You're allowed to cast the first card you draw each turn if it has miracle, so if you find ways to draw cards during your opponent's turn, you get another chance for a game-breaking, miraculous moment.

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Now that I look at it, Miracle may be a static effect that grants castability when it's the first card drawn for the turn.

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Originally Posted by SupREME-10

Your understanding is incorrect. Player draws card (the thing they just used a Brainstorm or Jace or some other mechanism to set to the top of their library); Vendilion Clique is then played, the ability triggers as Miracle is not at instant speed, and the Temporal Mastery is set to the bottom of their library and they get to draw another card. Seriously, Control players have been using Vendilion for a long time now, and coupled with things like Karakas they can do some fate-sealing quite often.

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I'm afraid that your understanding is incorrect. I just based my understanding on what I got to read from the card (and the mechanic), but don't take my word for it - the comment provided by whienot is probably the most reliable reference.

Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by whienot

From the mothership:




Now that I look at it, Miracle may be a static effect that grants castability when it's the first card drawn for the turn.

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I'm not sure, though, if Miracle can be Stifled. It seems like it can, because it says "...when...", which makes it a triggered ability.

Do correct me if I'm wrong.

Regards,
jares

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702.91. Miracle

702.91a Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability (see rule 603.10). "Miracle [cost]" means "You may reveal this card from your hand as you draw it if it's the first card you've drawn this turn. When you reveal this card this way, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."

702.91b If a player chooses to reveal a card using its miracle ability, he or she plays with that card revealed until that card leaves his or her hand, that ability resolves, or that ability otherwise leaves the stack.

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There it is. Miracle can be Stifled and otherwise responded to.

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Originally Posted by whienot

There it is. Miracle can be Stifled and otherwise responded to.

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Right, and it essentially gives it instant speed, meaning you can't clique it out of their hand, it's already being cast. It is a sorcery, but it's a sorcery card with conditional flash. The miracle trigger explicitly states that you play it when you reveal it.

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Originally Posted by whienot

There it is. Miracle can be Stifled and otherwise responded to.

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That clears things up. Thanks.

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by Kich867

Right, and it essentially gives it instant speed, meaning you can't clique it out of their hand, it's already being cast. It is a sorcery, but it's a sorcery card with conditional flash. The miracle trigger explicitly states that you play it when you reveal it.

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Being a sorcery has nothing to do with resolving the miracle ability, but the miracle trigger has to resolve before you can pay costs and place the spell on the stack.

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Miracle [cost]" means "You may reveal this card from your hand as you draw it if it's the first card you've drawn this turn. When you reveal this card this way, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."

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When you reveal this card this way , you must pass priority.

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Originally Posted by whienot

Being a sorcery has nothing to do with resolving the miracle ability, but the miracle trigger has to resolve before you can pay costs and place the spell on the stack.



When you reveal this card this way , you must pass priority.

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If that's the case, then you can indeed respond to it using Vendilion Clique.

Cheers,
jares

Stifle just got better by another margin.

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Originally Posted by Blitzbold

Stifle just got better by another margin.

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Yup. I asked this in the spoiler thread. Glad it's cleared up.

So you can respond when they reveal and pass priority, etc... and you can use things such as Stifle on it as well.

Maybe the card is a little more broken than I initially thought (as I did see it as a Sorcery); but I still see a lot of things that work around it, control it, etc... and the Miracle is not going to happen that often without manipulation so it will take time and effort to execute well. Which gives our deck time to respond better in turn.

Thanks for clearing that up guys

Vexing Devil :r:
Creature - Devil Rare
When Vexing Devil enters the battlefield, any opponent may have it deal 4 damage to him or her. If a player does, sacrifice Vexing Devil.
4/3

0.0

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Originally Posted by GranataGoblin

Vexing Devil :r:
Creature - Devil Rare
When Vexing Devil enters the battlefield, any opponent may have it deal 4 damage to him or her. If a player does, sacrifice Vexing Devil.
4/3

0.0

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Looks like burn just got better.

That card does sound good for Sligh/Burn... might even work in this deck (maybe).