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@Chikenbok
Nice list, even though im missing Wastelands in there, you prolly just forgot them.
Would you play 3 Lilis without the second LftL?
I recently went up to 4 Jace and 2 Lilis and never looked back. With the full set you can often throw the first one out for bait or, which matters more, dropping a jace on an empty board without brainstorming/digging for it gives your enemy less time to recover.
Finally, i find your bluecount preboard dangerously low. How do your FoW's work out for you?
There should be 3 wasteland in the list, thanks for pointing that out. The only deck I'm actively trying to ruin with waste/loam is RUG who simply cannot beat the two cards, its always fun watching them force a will a life from the loam to see you dredge it back and hit waste, factory, fetch. Waste is usually spent producing colorless mana and/or dealing with obnoxious utility/Sol lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bzka
The decision to go up to three lili's actually happened yesterday after hours and hours of play-testing and the truth is, while some people will argue that Jace wins the game on his own and lili helps, this isn't necessarily true.
Generally once lili ticks past 6 your opponent will scoop up the cards. Yes, with loam its incredible and essentially a GG on the spot but even without loam (I mean, you'll find it, right?) you should never cast her until you can guarantee card parity with your opponent at which point our deck pulls better answers off the top, our win conditions are LANDS, and we can deal with any threats they play at any given time.
She also completely hoses any combo deck that is trying to assemble critical mass in a single turn. You should try the 3/3 split, you might dig it.
Your list looks super similar to a list I was playing a while ago, but I was running 1 Intuition as the 61st card and more basic lands.
Do you ever find Pernicious Deed and Cage clashing ever against Dredge? I mean, I guess you're really only ever Deeding on zero anyway.
-Matt
A buddy of mine runs a single intuition in his 60 plus an unearth to reuse his snapcasters or some silly stuff like that (he runs 2 goyfs and a clique in there too). Its a really powerful engine but I don't necessarily think there's anything at this moment I'd want to cut from the deck. If it were to be anything it'd be the Maelstrom Pulse but then I'd start losing to Elspeth again, and - that's just no good. Even with the current configuration I'm not sure I'd ever really need to intuition for anything, the deck just rips so hot, all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Yeah deed against dredge is always on 0, hell snapcaster innocent blood nukes their bridges, and generally buys time with a cage out for them to be unable to make it back in the game.
If I play 4 goyfs and 4 snappys, should I run 2 Mishra's Factory? And do I play Daze over Spell Pierce because it's more aggro-ish?
I'm testing the following:
23 Lands:
4 Underground
4 Tropical
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
8 Fetch
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tarpit
1 Bojuka Bog
10 Creatures:
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Vendilion Clique
10 Removal:
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Diabolic Edict
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
7 Control:
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Force of Will
10 Utility:
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, TMS
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
SB:
4 Counterbalance
2 SDT
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Massacre
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Force of Will (should maybe be the 4th SDT)
The idea with this build is to take essentially the same configuration that is winning from the Esper Blade lists and give it the BUG control spin to gain an advantage in other matchups. With Esper, you gain the equipment package + Lingering Souls, and the best 1-mana removal spell in the game. As good as Esper is, I've occasionally had issues with the deck getting equipment stranded in hand/on board without a body to equip it to, and opening with a Batterskull is practically like a mulligan.
You sacrifice that for a different type of utility: a sturdier, 1-card win condition [Tarmogoyf -- SFM is typically more fragile], a method of grinding out long games [Loam, Liliana, Wasteland], and a higher likelihood of crushing the RUG matchup [Diabolic Edict, Counterbalance SB plan]. We also gain access to the best board wipe card in Legacy, Pernicious Deed (Massacre is also fantastic as well, even against some decks where you have to hardcast it as a mini-Damnation).
This build is obviously focused more on fighting random aggro decks in game 1, and some of the card choices are obviously based around that decision [Inquisition over Thoughtseize, only 3 FoW and no other counterspells, a higher density of removal]. I wouldn't play this configuration if you're expecting a ton of combo decks all day.
Counterbalance is choice that I think is underutilized by BUG these days, and as seen by the success of Miracle lists, it's still powerful. It gives us a chance against our traditionally worst match-up, Burn. It's also no slouch against certain other types of combo decks like Storm and Reanimator.
Because graveyard-based strategies are often tough to deal with, I have a couple cards in the maindeck to go along with the SB surgicals. Scavenging Ooze is often good against aggro, and Bojuka Bog is fine as a pseudo-spell against opposing Snapcaster decks and Mongeese.
I would like to hear any suggestions, but so far it's been fairing decently.
I wouldn't run more than 2 Ghastly Demise because of reanimator or other black-based creature decks. Replace it with a Go For The Throat or Diabolic Edict.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I could see maybe GftT, but obviously I already am running 4 Edicts. I like Demise since it costs just one mana and kills just about everything commonly played in Legacy at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angels
I'm really digging this deck and have so far played against RUG Thresh (good matchup), Team America Aggro (bad matchup), Esper Stoneblade (okay matchup), Zombies (bad matchup), Maverick (good matchup). I'm running Chikenbok's decklist but with more basics and the following sideboard modifications:
-2 Perish
+2 Damnation
RUG has a tough time with this deck due to great sacrifice effects and this deck just EATS MAVERICK ALIVE.
I think the Team America Aggro matchup is pretty bad due to consistent beaters and a decent control element as backup, but it could have been a bad draw. I wasn't able to kill a Tombstalker due to redundant blue protection. Oh well, I don't think I'm going to see it much in my meta.
The matchup I see as being particularly bad is Sam Black's zombies deck - because there's so much GOOD graveyard creature recursion, sweepers such as Pernicious Deed and Damnation don't help much unless you back it up with a Nihil Spellbomb. I know that Night of Souls' Betrayal is a common card played in this deck archetype, has anyone had good experiences with it? It looks like a real hoser, but works against your Snapcasters (though the comes into play trigger still happens). I guess that's not a big deal. I might pull out the Plagues and replace them NoSB. Thoughts?
First off, glad you're enjoying the deck - it really is a blast to play.
Now, in all of my testing, when you have two similar decks under the same archetype, the control-ier version of the deck tends to win. This is true of old school land-still decks, is generally true in most UW matchups, and in my testing with BUG, I don't think I've ever lost a game against BUG aggro (goyf/snap/stalker).
Pernicious deed takes care of 75% of their creature base and innocent bloods need to be held for stalkers as Ghastly demise won't exactly cut it. Try a few more matches with your opponents deck list in your head and with every play think of how many outs you have to a given spell, the deck rips like a champ off the top with answers -- Jace to a stalker generally means you have 3-4 turns to figure out how to deal with it again.
Regarding NosB, its amazing in a meta infested with Lingering Souls, since they're not really the flavor of the month, the card's effect has 'dwindled' a bit, albeit, its still a hell of card against some of the field (more fringe deck's than tier decks).
I think most of the reason that I enjoy playing e-plague so much is because it can come in against almost 'ANYTHING' -- maverick naming humans, goblins naming elephants, elves naming ponies, etc. Well, the real reason its in my board at all is because Goblins is a deck again that I'd been having trouble with, If you have any testing success with NosB, please let me know,
Keep testing against BUG aggro, the matchup should be heavily (mind the variance) in your favor.
--Alex
Edit: Also, Flusterstorm. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing.
I just went 3-0 and split for first place in a small local weekly Legacy tournament. Forgive my hyper-verbosity, but I was super happy with deck and the result. Here's my list:
//Awesomesauce
4x Brainstorm
3x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
2x Counterspell
2x Ponder
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize
2x Life from the Loam
//Death
3x Innocent Blood
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Ghastly Demise
1x Darkblast
1x Damnation
1x Maelstrom Pulse
//Backup bitches
2x Snapcaster Mage
//Lovers n' Fighters
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
//Laaaands!
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
2x Island
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Wasteland
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Creeping Tar Pit
//Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Hydroblast
1x Force of Will
1x Krosan Grip
1x Damnation
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x Go for the Throat
------------------
Round 1: "E" with Enchantress
Game 1: "E" is new to the deck and I knew he was playing it so I had a bit of an edge, and Enchantress is pretty weak to control. Due to few creatures in Enchantress I kept a hand with Force of Will, Spell Pierce, 3 lands, and a Jace. I counter his spells, Deed away his board of enchantments twice, and land a Jace who gets me there with his ultimate.
OUT: 3x Innocent Blood, 1x Ghastly Demise, 1x Darkblast, 1x Damnation
IN: 1x Force of Will, 1x Krosan Grip, 2x Vendilion Clique, 2x Surgical Extraction
Game 2: I know he's going to bring in Chokes post-board so I keep a hand with a FoW and a Spell Pierce (I know, lucky starts). I keep one mana open for Spell Pierce for his attempted Choke on Turn 6. I land a Jace and Fateseal him away.
2-0-0
1-0-0
Round 2: "K" with Mono-black Pox Control
Game 1: I think he's playing monowhite weenies (which he played last week) so I keep a hand with Innocent Blood, Spell Pierce, and a Pernicious Deed. I'm on the play and play first turn Island, Go. "K" keeps a loose one-lander hand (which I find out through several rounds of him not geting any lands) and plays on his first turn Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth-->Dark Ritual-->Liliana of the Veil, which I Spell Pierce. On my turn I play a Wasteland and take out his single land, then man-land him throughout the game down to 2 life. He stabilizes with two Mishra's factories of his own and I land a Jace to Fateseal him a bit, then we stall out for a bit until I Life from the Loam Wasteland him out and swing for the kill with a Mishra's (finally).
OUT: 3x Innocent Blood, 1x Ghastly Demise, 1x Darkblast, 1x Damnation
IN: 1x Force of Will, 2x Vendilion Clique, 1x Scavenging Ooze, 2x Surgical Extraction
Game 2: In Game 1 I Fatesealed a Bloodghast and since he has a lot of hate and discard I brought in the Surgicals. Also since we stalled out a bit mid-game I figured the Cliques would help present a quicker clock. Turn 1 he drops a Swamp, Go. I'm surprised he doesn't Inquisition me first turn. I keep a hand with a Life from the Loam, Underground Sea, Misty Rainforest, Surgical Extraction, Scavenging Ooze, and Vendilion Clique, which might be considered a loose keep since I didn't draw any control. I drop the Underground Sea and say Go. He plays on his second turn a Swamp and Nukes my Underground Sea with a Sinkhole. Shit. Then, I play the Misty Rainforest and say Go. Next, he Inquisitions me, I respond by Surgical Extracting his Sinkhole (which saved by ass, as he had two Smallpoxes in hand he was afraid of using because he didn't want to nuke his own lands and it doesn't hurt me too much because I'm so creature light), he makes me discard my Ooze and passes. VERY luckily I peel a land off the top, crack the Rainforest and play Life From the Loam. He Extirpates my Loam but I continue to get lucky with lands and cantrips until we stall again mid-game and Jace ends up getting me there.
I was originally very hesitant to play a Jace-dependent deck, but holy shit it is amazing. His utility abilities rock my socks.
2-0-0
2-0-0
Round 3: "J" with Mono-red Goblins
Game 1: "J" and I have a history of getting (randomly) paired up the first round of several tournaments and he always beats the tar out of me. His Goblins deck has so much synergy, speed, and decent control such as Gempalm Incinerator, Sharpshooter, Siege-Gang Commander, and he places very high in these tournaments regularly. He stars with Turn 1 Mountain --> Goblin Lackey. I know he doesn't play Wastelands, so I start with Turn 2 Underground Sea, Innocent Blood. From there he makes every land drop, many being Cavern of Souls, so my counters get significantly weaker. Then, we stall for nearly 40 minutes - I have a resolved Jace and a Liliana and continuously Fateseal him while he resolves Goblins and Goblin tokens and keeps attacking, bringing Jace down 2-3 points per turn. I do a decent job of holding off his wave with Innocent Blood, Ghastly Demise, Manlands, and Pernicious Deed (twice) and preventing him from getting Ringleaders. Eventually I cantrip into a Maelstrom Pulse which takes out his tokens and a Damnation to clear the board, then I Jace Ultimate (winning) as the game goes to time.
Game 2: With only 5 turns to play since the game goes to time I bring in more hate and he mulligans to 4 hoping to get a God-draw and kill me in 3 turns. I mulligan and keep a hand full of creature hate and we Draw.
"J" was pretty upset, probably because my deck looked like it was tailor-made to kill his deck, which in a sense is true, but it's because last week we had 3 Goblins players, no combo, and mostly Aggro or Aggro-Control. Also, Game 1 drew out FOREVER and I ended up getting there with a Win-con that he thinks maybe I shouldn't have had. In any case, we agreed it was a great game albeit frustrating and nerve-wracking at times. Later, one of my other MTG-buddies asked why I wasn't bouncing his Goblin tokens. I don't think this was a good idea because I was trying I have so much hate I was trying draw into with cantrips and reshuffles and by Fatesealing him I made sure he wasn't able to improve his army enough to really do major damage.
1-1-0
3-0-0
Top 4: "I" with Esper Stoneblade
"I" and I decided to split the top and play for fun since the difference in prizes between first and second were pretty low and a loss could mean 3rd place.
Game 1: Jace gets me there and I control the board with lots of hate, Manlands, and counters. Fatesealing obviously makes it happen, but every now and then his Brainstorm is friggin' perfect.
-------------------
Again, sorry for the lengthy post, but it was a great small tournament and I was really impressed with the deck. I didn't mention it earlier, but the all-star (other than Jace and Deed) for the night was Ponder. I found this deck having major problems getting the cards it needs and having those two extra cantrips is incredibly valuable. I highly suggest using them - if you're running a 4th FoW and/or Thoughtseize/Inquisition, drop them for a Ponder or two, it really works. I'm probably going to take out the Night of Souls' Betrayal in the Side as I didn't feel like it would help all night and because when it hits it often doesn't do much. I'll replace it with another Diabolic Edict or Go for the Throat.
Edit: Also, I love how this deck can transform quite nicely post-board to get more Creature Hate or more Control. Boarding out 6-7 cards can work quite well and you don't feel like you're really missing much.
Glad to see someone else here aside from myself is still running hot with the deck. I spent almost the entire day today testing it extensively against RUG, Esper Blade, UW Miracles, and Maverick going 7-3, 8-2, 9-1, and 7-3 respectively.
I've changed my list a bit to add a bit more redundancy to my threats, I've cut the pulse from the MD and added a third Counterspell and a third Snapcaster Mage, both cards have been pulling their weight extremely well 3 pierce and 3 c-spell + 3 snapcaster has been a blast. Adding the third Snap has also allowed me to drop the MD 6th piece of spot removal so I'm currently down to 3 Innocent Blood 2 Ghastly Demise MD with 1 Darkblast in the board.
I'm also back on the 3 Jace 3 Lili plan since she's a complete house against anything except a resolved top, in which case she's only *mediocre* but still quite a house.
@Kyle -- How did you like the damnation main? I tested it for a while but found it to be overkill in the list with 3 deeds, but I guess if you're playing against goblins its probably quite a nice card to have handy. Also, I was completely underwhelmed with Ponder in the deck. It might just be how I play but I'm almost always controlling my draws through either braintorms, dredges, or jaces and when none of those are relevant, I'm usually content just ripping off the top into something that's probably legitimate. The reason being that even our lands are threats in this deck, there's just nothing it doesn't want to see off the top.
One one last note I'd just like to say that flusterstorm has been a house for me in the sideboard, especially dealing with Mr. Grizzlybear and his enablers on the stack.
Just some food for though
What's your current list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chikenbok
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plague Sliver
//Win Cons.. I guess?
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
//Spells for Preventing my Opponents from Having Fun
2 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Counterspell
3 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Thoughtseize
//Lands -- Win Cons?
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Swamp
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Raven's Crime
What do you think of Brian DeMars' Shardless BUG?
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...Shardless.html
I've fallen in love with the deck. Awesome card advantage, and I'd love to play Tarmogoyf alongside Jace, Clique, and Hymn.
I don't like the Snapcaster, though. I'd rather play a third Clique and top. Maybe add counterbalance in the SB for the combo matchups.
The deck's great and a lot of fun to play. Based on my rather new experience with it, it's incredibly strong against some of the best decks in the format right now. I have had similar results against RUG, Esperblade, Miracles, and Maverick (playing online).
Damnation main (and the Ponders) is a necessity in my aggro-heavy meta and absolutely allowed me to win the game against Goblins this last time (a deck which there is sometimes 3 of at any given weekly tournament). This is of course a small sample size, but I'm pretty happy to see a Damnation mid-game more than 90% of the time. I will definitely say it's not good MD in every meta, but I feel it's right for mine. In my opinion, because Jace is your primary Win Condition, if you are being assaulted turn after turn with aggro and you're having trouble controlling it, Jace's Fateseal is the most important thing to be doing every turn as it prevents the assault from growing larger. Those extra filter/cantrips and extra MD sweeper can help keep Jace doing his job while you look for an answer. Oftentimes a topdecked Spell Pierce or Counterspell isn't what you're looking for, whereas what you really need is more creature kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chikenbok
Now, I may be playing Jace wrong, not taking full advantage of his Brainstorm or Bounce, but when you want to win a game, I think you've gotta keep the pressure on with Fatesealing. And of course I'd love to have advice on how best to play the Blue Planeswalker Badass. Also, Pernicious Deed for me has swept (no pun intended) to the top of the charts of best card ever printed.
Its almost always the right choice to immediately begin fatesealing with jace because, once you resolve him you're generally at, or above card parity with your opponent. However, in the control matchups (UW/CBtop) you generally want to be at a point of +1/+2 cards before you begin fatesealing as you MUST have generally 1/2 counterspells in hand to deal with the jace that your opponent is so heavily digging for. Remember that brainstorming is arguably the most powerful thing that can be done in MTG, and jace can provide that every single term. But yes, most games are won off of his *bam you're dead* factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
What are everyone's thoughts about Brian DeMar's article (and decklist) on SCG: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...Shardless.html
He basically adds Shardless Agent and Ancestral Vision to a Team America-ish base. This appeals to me but I haven't gotten the chance to try it out it.
Because clicking is hard, here's the list:
Artifacts
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Artifact Creatures
4 Shardless Agent
Creatures
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ghastly Demise
Legendary Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sorceries
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Hymn to Tourach
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
Lands
2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Thoughtseize
Never been a fan of cascade and being forced to brainstorm when you're trying to do... something else (not die?) doesn't seem that appealing to me. I think the deck definitely looks interesting and I'll give it a few runs before I make any conclusive statements about it but building a deck around cascading is a lot more difficult than jamming in 4 creatures that can hit almost all of your deck.
Realistically there are 10 targets you want to be cascading into, and that's on an empty board, Vision, Hymn, and Snapcaster (maybe goyf is in there too) but I don't see the deck consistently cascading into spells that you want to cast at a specific time.
The thing that BUG control does amazingly well is provide answers on a 1 to 1 basis until establishing itself in a position in which it simply cannot lose -- Cascade randomizes the chance of hitting the spell you need. Albeit, sometimes cascading into a bomb feels amazing, but it takes away from the general consistency that real BUG control provides.
On that note, I'll go test it for a few hours.
How did your testing go?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chikenbok
You have some good points for sure. I wonder if the cascading is a little too cute to actually be good. But I do think that brainstorming when you otherwise wouldn't brainstorm isn't the worst thing ever, especially since the brainstorm isn't coming from your hand. Maybe it was on top of your deck and you would have drawn it next turn and held onto it for a while, but maybe it was beneath three lands and would have come too late anyway. And now you've gotten rid of the lands as well.
The worst case scenarios for cascading are:
1. hit snapcaster with nothing in the graveyard or with no open mana. In this case you get a 2/2 and 2/1 for three mana. Not great but not the worst thing ever.
2. Hit ghastly demise with no creatures to kill. Many of these times you would rather not draw ghastly demise as there is nothing to kill (there are exceptions to this, obviously, where you'd want to save it for later) so at least you got it out of the way and will be more likely to draw live.
3. Hit hymn when they have no cards in hand. Similar logic to above but in addition you're probably winning already if this is the situation.
4. Hit top when the other top is already in play. With a shuffle effect this turns into draw a card. Not the best thing, but not terrible.
5. Hit tarmogoyf or anything else that won't save you when you're about to die. If you had a way to save yourself already you wouldn't cast shardless agent so this is kind of desperation time anyway.
Other than that, a free brainstorm never seems bad and a free ancestral is pretty much always awesome. Also, this is minor but the cascade also gives you another way to get rid of lands and cards with CMC >= 3 that you put back after brainstorm, which is something that could come up from time to time.
But this is legacy and while value is awesome, hypergenesis seldom gets played and it cascades into giant fatties. So I don't know. I'd love to get a chance to try it out but it's going to be a week or so before I do.
I'm definitely interested in anyone's thoughts.