Has anyone considered the possibility of cards like Oblation and Barrin's Unmaking (that was an interesting find!) (EDIT: or AEther Tradewinds)?
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Has anyone considered the possibility of cards like Oblation and Barrin's Unmaking (that was an interesting find!) (EDIT: or AEther Tradewinds)?
Maybe I'm not understanding the application, but what would these cards help to do? Both of these cards are likely too expensive (mana) to be useful. What do you recommend cutting from the deck to make room for them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
Koby, and anyone else playing the silence version, do you think that Abeyance is too slow to fit in the silence slot? My thoughts were that, in addition to replacing itself, it also shuts down activated abilities, like deathrite, ooze, relic or P, etc.., which are not prevented with silence.
I think it certainly merits testing, though I have a hunch that the extra mana might be a little hard to come by. Though, abeyance seems much better in the longer, grindier games in which our first attempts to combo have been foiled.
Caleb Durward played this deck on SCG with this:
Creatures (7)
2 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
Lands (14)
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
Spells (39)
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
2 Reanimate
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Thoughtseize
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Deathmark
1 Duress
This deck is great, but I just donīt understand what he is doing against hate. Of course instant reanimation is a kind of protection against extraction and deathrite, but against cage and RIP (maybe some rare times leyline) the 2 bounce cards looks insufficient. The Options of hardcasting Grisel or storming to a deadly tendrills should be very rare. So can someone please explain to me, what could be a boarding plan against hate ? (such as Cage)
In my testing I actually encountered this same problem a few times, where I would have multiple Brainstorms in hand, but didn't have a fetchland and couldn't reliably find one off of the top of my deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
It's a tough call though, because I really don't want to give up my outs to counterbalance/RiP.
Im with you here. I was testing vs tin fins yesterday. Did about 10 games of UR Stilfenought and there were a lot of times where brainstorm was just not that good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
yeah the RiP/Counter Top mach up is a pretty bad one for us. It might be the deck that we just concede the loss to and move on. i played against one this weekend won game one because there wasn't an active top in play and I had managed to run him out of counter magic. i hard cast a griselbrand and killed him with Tendrils.
games 2 and 3 werent so good for me. the only thing i can think of in the board that would help is more disruption like duress and the like followed by needle on top and bounce spells to clear the way. that's really the only thing you can do in this type of match up.
Hi everyone!
I too hail from Carsten Kotter's SCG article, which I basically stopped reading after he posted this deck. I'd known about Tin Fins from before but was skeptical. Trying it out on Cockatrice a ton, especially with the innovation of Children of Korlis, has made me a believer.
Anyway, I wanted to run the Storm sideboard (as I own it, do not own Show and Tells, and think it's a good answer to Surgical Extraction). I haven't seen a list yet incorporating Children of Korlis while transforming to Storm post-side, so I gave it a shot:
3 Griselbrand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Thoughtseize
2 Preordain
1 Children of Korlis
2 Scalding Tarn
Sideboard
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Preordain
Essentially, 15 cards out, 15 cards in, and you should have a serviceable Storm deck with no dead cards. I took out the second Korlis because... I'm not sure why you need two? I never really had a hard time finding one with Entomb when I needed it. I also found Emrakul to be a little "win-more," though the tricks (reanimation, reshuffle, hardcast) are fun, I think it'll be a real corner case where you actually need them to win.
What I'm not the happiest with are only having 7 reanimation spells and only 3 Griselbrands. Those were the sacrifices to get the non-Storm elements down to 15 cards. Though having 10 cantrips does help, it sort of forces you to keep cantrip-heavy hands and hope for the best. Otherwise you won't be keeping many hands. But it seems to work out to a turn 3 or less kill on most occasions, sometimes with discard backup. Thoughts on how to improve, or whether this is a worthwhile endeavor are appreciated.
Based on my testing results and watching Koby stream the past couple of weeks, it's very clear that the deck has consistency issues. The games where it draws the right cards and doesn't brick off Ponder / Brainstorm it's nuts and can play though a ton of hate, but there's a bunch of games where it just draws lands and redundant effects.
The most obvious solution to that issue is to add more cantrips. The best cantrip seems to be Gitaxian Probe (based on some theorycrafting). Probe actually increases the speed of the deck (one of TinFin's strongest points) by giving information and should also help with consistency. Careful Studies 1-2 in addition to Ponders are another option that might want to be explored.
Probe has the big issue of costing life, but I suspect that being able to more consistently combo faster is worth it, just like in TES. From experience, as long as you can draw 14 cards, you should be 80+% to win immediately. That only requires that we animate Griselbrand with haste from above 7 life - pretty easymode.
Here's a possible Gitaxian Probe list:
// Combo Pieces
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
4 Entomb
2 Children of Korlis
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony
// Protection
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Silence
// Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
// Mana
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Gemstone Mine
// Sideboard
2 Pull From Eternity
1 Silence
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Hurkyl's Recall
Koby's build that cuts the Gemstone Mines and Abrupt Decays is very reasonable too, but I would prefer to continue testing if the UW Miracles matchup and Prison matchup can be salvaged. Obviously different metas will influence the sideboard decisions.
Megadeus - I never played TES without Gitaxian Probe, I'm curious how its Brainstorms were compared to how they are now. Maybe Gitaxian Probe allows you to see deeper with Brainstorm which allows more early kills or more access to shuffle effects?
kihachi - neither the Show and Tell plan nor the ANT plan are considered optimal anymore. I think the past few pages have made substantial strides in improving the deck, whereas your list seems to be based on a much older build.
Snapcaster should be investigated further. I tried a couple of games with him as a 2-of, and it does wonders for resilience as well as improving consistency. It might be just due to variance, but I got the impression it supplants all the questionable additions (CS, Intuition, 10th reanimation spell, ...).
@dk- I'm testing one children in place of a preordain and it seems very useful ensuring griselbrand draws into a win. While storm count might not be a factor for this deck, I think probe still has incredible utility here for all the other reasons I mentioned. If you look closely at my deck construction you'll see my new list is hopefully an evolution of the archetype rather than just a rehash of the old list. It's really quite different, improving several issues, and easy enough to fit children into.
@phazonmuant- I don't know if all the consistency issues of this archetype can ever be fully solved. It seems somewhat volatile by nature, but, like you said incredibly powerful and resiliant when it gets going. It's sad that griselbrand and mystical tutor didn't overlap, at least for a short time. On the previous page I posted a new deck rough draft that focuses on increasing consistency. As you can see I agree with you about probe, I'm a big fan. The lifeloss is a slight issue, but you can probe twice and still draw 14 cards before swinging given only one fetch and no other damage. I just threw the list together yesterday and I'm finding pre ordain to be the flex slot, right now I'm leaning toward one children and a 3rd goryos in place of the 2 pre ordains.
In the past my biggest consistency issue was binning griselbrand. Relying on 4 entombs wasn't cutting it. That's originally why I started playing LED. The interaction between LED and shallow grave is really sick, and I still think that version of the deck is very powerful and fairly consistent, but lacking protection. Going forward I'm packing playsets of griselbrands, thoughtseize, and cabal therapies. In theory this should improve the odds of getting a winning hand since thoughtseize and therapy double as combo pieces with griselbrand in hand. Also, probe therapy is just unfair. With the deck stretched so thin, cards that serve multiple purposes are key. I think sticking to strictly u/b feels more solid, at least for the maindeck. Silence is definitely nice but I'd rather have a card that doubles as a combo piece, and a manabase thats less vulnerable to wasteland. I would definitely consider running green or white in the sideboard if I go the anti hate route. I haven't had a chance to test my new list yet but I've solitaired quite a bit and it feels strong. I still need a sideboard, this is the issue that won't go away with this deck. I'm leaning towards transformational because I haven't been convinced by any of the anti hate boards suggested so far.
A note on careful study- I think this card is the worst cantrip in this deck. It doesn't even net you a card and there aren't enough creatures for it to be even close to consistent at binning a wincon.
Hi All,
does anyone know the answer to this rules question? The exile effects on Shallow Grave and Goryo's Vengeance trigger, I believe, at the start of the end step. If you shallow grave / vengeance in response to the start of your opponent's end step, then as I understand it the reanimated creature will then stay in play until the end of your turn? I was thinking about combining a few careful studies (or even 4) with Jin-Gitaxis as (bad) Griselbrands 5-6 - shallow grave / vengeance at end of oppo's turn, mind twist them (since Jin-Gitaxis reduces their hand size, which is relevant to clean-up, rather than causes them to discard directly in the end of turn step), and stack the draw 7 at the end of your turn. Probably a very poor idea to improve consistency, although mind twist plus draw seven is not shabby for 1B(!), but since I am unsure the rules I haven't explored any more yet!
I suppose the point, if right, also opens a more mana efficient line of play when going off normally, since you can tap the two to reanimate G'brand at the end of your oppo's turn instead of during your own turn.
Thanks
From the Comprehensive Rules (Dark Ascension)
513. End Step
513.1. First, all abilities that trigger "at the beginning of the end step" or "at the beginning of the next end step" go on the stack. (See rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities.")
513.1a Previously, abilities that trigger at the beginning of the end step were printed with the trigger condition "at end of turn." Cards that were printed with that text have received errata in the Oracle card reference to say "at the beginning of the end step" or "at the beginning of the next end step."
513.2. Second, the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities.
513.3. If a permanent with an ability that triggers "at the beginning of the end step" enters the battlefield during this step, that ability won't trigger until the next turn's end step. Likewise, if a delayed triggered ability that triggers "at the beginning of the next end step" is created during this step, that ability won't trigger until the next turn's end step. In other words, the step doesn't "back up" so those abilities can go on the stack. This rule applies only to triggered abilities; it doesn't apply to continuous effects whose durations say "until end of turn" or "this turn." (See rule 514, "Cleanup Step.")
Apologies in advance if this is not in the correct subforum.
For adding Gitaxian Probe - I like this list. I feel like you've made some good cuts to fit the Probes in. I wonder, however, how much of a trap we'll fall into with opening hands. 13 lands seems fine with running Probes, I just wonder if it's going to trick us into bad keeps. Testing will tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
Also - thanks for all of those who are testing and pushing this deck forward. Apologies for not being able to contribute much recently - haven't had a lot of time to play Legacy (and Tin Fins in particular - local meta kills me every time I play it after 8 months of it now...)
Alright, so here is the decklist that I have been testing wit some solid success:
Creatures (5):
x2 Grisel
x2 Children
x1 Emrakul
Lands (14):
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
Accelerators (10):
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
Cantrips (10):
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
Protection:
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Silence
Reanimators:
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Exhume
Other:
4 Entomb
1 Tendrils
SB:
1 silence
2 Massacre
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pull from Eternity
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Pithin Needle
So far, in somewhat limited testing I have liked this build. While gitaxian probe gives you info., and essentially shrinks the size of your deck, i feel like the extra cards you see with preordain are more important.
I feel like 10 accelerators might be too much, but I can't decide what to cut. 1 Dark Rit seems like the answer, but this takes away from our ptential t1 kill. It seems to me like chrome mox is most often used AFTER we land grisel so keep us going, so maybe 1 mox would suffice. Maybe cut one to add another grisel for the purposes of self-discarding?
Silence is a star. It hoses other combo decks, but it has also served wonders against blue based control decks with a heavy counter suite. However, maybe we can fit all 3, or maybe just 2, in the SB, opening up more deck spce fro cantrips and library manipulation.
Also, I am still not sold on completely getting rid of intuition. Having another entomb effect goes a long way.
If anyone has any thoughts, or has also tested preordain, I'd love to hear it!
Cheers!
ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Mantis
Exactly that. In those cases i really wished Brainstorm was Ponder, or i had a shuffle effect. But since brainstorm can hide away combo pieces against discard i really think both should be run 4 times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
With the current configuration i really think that the deck relies a lot on Entomb, making that its weak spot. Intuition was cut. Which was a good thing since its just slow. But without careful study and only 5-6 discard effects and just 2 Griselbrands it is kinda hard to create an in.
I really think that Silence is a real strong card. I've played with it in a tournament where i went top8. It helps against a lot of decks and is a MUST answer. In combination with Probe, Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy it can and will win a lot of games. It also stops combo decks from exploding in your face. I really feel comfortable with 4 silence in the main/sideboard. Also i really like having 1-2 Reanimate as it can be a dodgeball.
Anyway, a lot of times i removed Chrome Mox (and Mox Diamond) for sideboard cards game 2/3 and still winning turn 1/2/3. So maybe that could have a cut. Also i run only 13 lands. So after some stripping i come this this:
But now it feels to light on INs.
2 Griselbrand
2 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Reanimate
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Silence
2 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
1 Island
Also i would like to see a green source fit in somewhere to put some Abrupt Decay's in the side. I dislike having Gemstone Mine since it cannot be fetched. So either a Trop or a Bayou or even a Savannah.
I have to say that it may not be correct but i am partial to a list with probe in it.
I have never been disapointed to have an opener with probe. it works well with therapy and that is kind of like the icing on the cake. it lets us know what to play around, replaces itself, and also interacts favorably with Children to add to our life total. It has also become cards i needed where if it were a seize or duress it would've been just another discard spell.
i was running 4 careful study and found that to be bad, i have since cut to 2 studty and may go further to just eliminating tha card completely.
Understandable, I'm trying to play catch-up here. I just know from experience with other combo decks that sometimes diluting the deck is worse than just keeping it steady and racing, playing around, or hoping to avoid the hate. That's why I stuck with the ANT plan as it makes an almost perfect ANT deck post-board. But I understand if people have moved beyond that and probably won't provide much feedback for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
Is there anything else I'm missing? Children kind of makes up the need for multiple Tendrils I suppose, so those could become Silences and some Gemstone Mines could be added, much as I hate them. It also appears people are down to 2 Griselbrands now.
You could consider moving a Silence to your sideboard and upping your Griselbrand count to 3, but I'm not sure if that's the direction you want to go for getting more "ins".Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
As for the Abrupt Decay manabase, I think Gemstone Mine is a must if you want to run 4 colors. I hate having to run it also as it has limited use and isn't fetchable and cuts down on our fetch count, but there really isn't a good way to work around it that I can see.