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Definately never board out burn spells vs UW. Especially because most of their defenses relies on creature controlling, one L. Bolt is that one turn ahead of damage you get. That's only a problem if they get Countertop online, at least until you Abrupt Decay them.
I have a pair of Ooze in the main, so I actually ditch all four goyf, 2 thoughtseize, and 2 IoK for 4 Duress, 1 BBE, and 3 Pyroblast
Ditching goyf is a terrible, terrible idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggedjoe
Are we talking about UW/r miracles here? Cause so far my boarding plan (that works) involve cutting the bolts. Yes they have 4 terminus and 4 STP post board, but they don't have snap. As long as you dont give them too much value out of their terminus, seems like winnable without bolts.
I cut 3 Bolts 3 Hymn (If you suspect Misd) for 4 REB, 1 Chain of mephisto, 1 ancient grudge.
Your T1 play is Deathrite Shaman.
On your T2 you have both Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach in hand.
Assuming that you have 3 black mana available which of these do you play first? and why?
T1->Shaman.Quote:
Originally Posted by dave8
T2->Thoughtseize.
Once I know my opponent's hand, I'll decide if play Himn or play Confidant/Silvan/Tarmogoyf or Punishing hig turn1 Delver...
Yeah ok but what if your only 2 drop is Hymn?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Gibbo
Because playing Thoughtseize first allows you to hit the biggest threat and then count on luck.
Otherwise you count on luck first Hymn to Tourach adn then hit the biggest threat.
Which is better? I am not sure.
Generally speaking, seizing is better since you are going to get information from his hand regardless. Even if he counters with a fow, that is telling a lot about his hand being very valuable. Say you thoughtseize, he fows. You then hymn and your chances of hitting better cards increases since there would be no reason to waste a fow on a thoughtseize unless the player was stupid or his hand was good. He is already down 2 cards as a result and unless he has a second fow, your hymn will hit well. If you are playing against a nonblue deck, similar line of thought as the information that seize gives you is worth more IMO than randomly hitting 2 cards and not really knowing what is in his hand. And if you thoughtseize and see that he really doesn't have much business, you can hold off on the hymn until later in the game and play along other lines of play as mentioned above.
can't decide between jund of team america tempo for a monthly tournament this week. I know there is going to be a pretty open meta with combo, control, agro and some home brews like pox and the gate. At work on cell. Sorry for gramar and abbreviations.
Current list is:
3 badlands
3 bayou
4 verdant
4 bloodstained
1 forest
1 swamp
4 wateland
4 grove of burnt willows
3 BBE
4 goyf
4 bob
4 DrS
3 lily 2.0
3 p.fire
4 bolt
4 decay
4 thoughtseize
3 hymn
board:
3 pyroblast
3 surgical
1 BBE
1 slyvan library
2 Plagues
2 p. needle
2 crypt
1 hymn (garruk relentless)
Thoughts?
On Hymn vs Tseize order: I agree, Seize first. Also because it will increse the chance of Hymn hitting lands (which is usually good).
My thoughts:Quote:
Originally Posted by dave8
Most people will probably say it's better to Thoughtseize and then Hymn, but I think there are exceptions. It depends on how many cards your opponent has in his hand and whether you want to deny him lands; also important is whether there's a possibility of running into counters.
Playing Thoughtseize first gives you information and allows you to act accordingly, for example by not casting Hymn that turn at all if it's not worth it. People have already mentioned this aspect.
If you want to deny lands, Thoughtseize first and then Hymn.
If your opponent has several cards in hand (say 4+), you're not expecting counters, don't want to deny lands and want to cast both cards in the same turn, then I would go Hymn and then Thoughtseize. On average, you should be getting more value like this.
Against a combo deck with counters, where the opponent having a single card or not can be the difference between losing on his turn or buying more time, I would also go Hymn and then Thoughtseize. If your Hymn gets countered you can still make him discard his most valuable card, but if Thoughtseize gets countered you have to rely on luck (this depends on hand size again, at 3 cards it might be better to Thoughtseize first, assuming a worst case 1-for-1 counter you can then decide if Hymn is needed or not).
You thoughtseize first so that you don't strip their hand of cards you can hit by hymming first. It sucks when you Hymn, hit their cards, then thoughtseize, only to see they only have lands left.
It's almost always better to Thoughtseize before Hymning. There are some exceptions, which I'll elaborate on when I'm at a computer.
It's not so obvious which order is better. It depends a lot on the situation. Saying one is always correct is wrong.
EDIT: Directed mostly at zulander.
I agree, but as a general rule of thumb Thoughtseizeing your opponent gives you information on whether or not to continue to Hymn to Tourach them so it's generally the better play.Quote:
Originally Posted by trivial_matters
I didn't say it's always better did I? It's just most of the time (like 75%).Quote:
Originally Posted by trivial_matters
If I don't know my opponent's hand, I'll ALWAYS play Toughtseize before Hymn (in a situation where I have 3 black mana in a turn).Quote:
Originally Posted by trivial_matters
True, but in almost every relevant scenario, you TS before Hymn if you plan on casting both.Quote:
Originally Posted by trivial_matters
If your opponent has one card in hand, remember that 2 life is 10% of your starting total. That is very relevant. Sometimes you can just cast Hymn for one card. Often, I would use Thoughtseize as Liliana fodder and just not waste 2 life.
Often, the great advantage of Thoughtseize is casting it turn one. You get perfect information, you get to take either their biggest threat, their most potent hate, their next possibly play, or a Force/MisD so Hymn resolves.
Later on in the game, if they are not in any sort of mana issue, I hold Thoughtseize for a time where something I want to resolve something, like a BBE. Hymns, unless threatened by MisD, I often just cast as quick as I draw them if I can get two cards, or like above, even just one card (rarely).
Also note that there are matchups like Show and Tell where you fire them willy nilly, in hope of getting something... anything.
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Finally, a quick report. Over the past two months, I am having a ridiculous string of X-2 finishes at largerish events in Toronto (30+ players, often 40+). Two weekends ago I went 4-2 in a 42 player event... with both losses coming to RUG delver.
Now, to be fair, both were 2-1, and each player had a pretty broken opening hand in at least one of the games. This happens. I also made some mistakes in at least one match-up, according to spectators.
It might have mattered.
Furthermore, both opponents had COPIOUS copies of stifle. I must have been stifled about 15 times in the 6 games, if not more. Stifle is an extremely powerful card against Jund, it turns out.
First, your mana. I kept 3 land hands, and often ended up with zero lands. There is very little we can do about that. I cannot possibly mulligan hands containing Wasteland, 2 Duals, and 4 very relevant cards. The fact that I was never able to fetch for basic lands is a serious issue. They don't even need to rush into anything, they can just hold stifle mana open, and just delay themselves by a turn for their 1cc threat.
Secondly, they do side in Surgical Extraction for your Abrupt Decay. Turns out that's a big deal.
Their god hands are unbeatable. There is sometimes no combination of cards that can do it. This happens.
Finally, the fact that Punishing Jund needs Grove of the Burnwillows is an issue. I love Punishing Fire, but I am starting to believe it's not that great against RUG, despite being theoretically awesome (winning Goyf wars, killing Delvers, finishing them off?). Obviously being a slow and tedious card, it can seem lackluster against a powerful tempo deck, so maybe I am just still on tilt from the tournament.
I still maintain it's a great match-up, just Stifle is a serious problem. I don't know how to solve that particular issue. Just hope they don't run it and hope to get luckier with mana?
Loam beats stifle, but getting loam online takes forever. I usually board out hymn and board in diabolic edict. if you win the board war then you beat rug. It's okay for them to have a few dorks early on, but once turn 4 hits you need a presence. In this matchup you have to play the control deck so make sure you are assigning roles properly.
I just got some Deathrite Shamans I was waiting from eBay, and completed my list.
Do you guys have any comment on what you think I could change? It's essentially Punishing Jund, with the sideboard aimed at combos, due to them being very present in my meta in Sao Paulo.
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 3 Duress
The reason for 3 Groves is me lacking the fourth one, but I plan to correct that before the next tourney I join. (then switching one taiga for one grove)