Sorry for the noob question but I've never played this deck or belcher: what is the purpose of wild cantor?
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Sorry for the noob question but I've never played this deck or belcher: what is the purpose of wild cantor?
It allows you to transform Spirit Guide (and Chancellor) mana to B which tends to be the bottleneck.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
Agreed! This is very interesting. I was going to suggest the Probes and Wraiths too, but looks like everyone got to the same place.Quote:
Originally Posted by DireLemming
Is Summoner's Pact right for this deck if you're planning on passing the turn?
I've seen lists with Bridge from Below in them. Has there been discussion in this thread regarding that option?
EtW doesn't work because you've already milled your whole deck and can't afford to draw next turn. Moreover, it doesn't work with summoner's pact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Thanks! I know pact is sometimes very awkward but I believe it's necessary since we need the initial mana and mana-fixing. On the bright side, it works very well with belcher and if you're planning on going off all in one turn (better now with the addition of probe and wraith).Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmutant
Bridge from below was cut a long time ago in the dread return version because the number of dead cards is backbreaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPoJohnson
Also, I've figured out how to beat leyline of sanctity with the following sideboard transformation: -1 PiF, -1 tendrils, -1 belcher/other, +1 memory's journey, +1 deep analysis, +1 laboratory maniac.
After step 5 (flashing back deep analysis #1), crack LEDs for blue and green mana (4 blue, 3 green floating). Use the green to flashback memory's journey #2 targeting street wraith and laboratory manic (4 blue, 2 green floating). Flashback deep analysis #2 (2 blue, 2 green floating) to draw wraith and maniac. Play maniac and keep wraith in hand. Respond to any relevant thing (removal, discard, etc.) your opponent does or the summoner's pact trigger by cycling wraith.
I am of course talking about the cases where you naturally draw the Burning Wish. I'm arguing that replacing the Tendrils with the Burning Wish is just better.Quote:
Originally Posted by nudon
Sorry, I misinterpreted what you meant. That's actually a great idea! :) Cards to potentially add to the sideboard: tendrils, EtW, pyroclasm, hull breach, shattering spree, chainer's edit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
I wouldn't go overboard for a one-of you can't search for.
Death Wish might actually be better here as it allows you to grab Lab Man and is less cumbersome with regards to post-PiF mana. Natural storming ability becomes a bit worse, but that wasn't all that good to begin with (aside from the one-of wish there is also about 0.3 probability of bricking on the draw spell) and from my experience with SI, overall mana is rarely the problem.
I can't come up with any scenario where the red mana requirement from Burning Wish is ever a problem, apart from the one case where you use no LEDs at all, which is extremely unlikely. My argument isn't only that it is marginally better to naturally draw, but also that it makes for an easier transformational sideboard. I would only run ToA and EtW as targets.
The new deck is rather interesting, but is it any better than the original deck we came up with? Tendrils of Agony, Past in Flames, Memory's Journey and Deep Analysis are all dead cards when compared to Narcomoeba, so you have three less dead cards considering Dread Return, Sutured Ghoul and Dragon's Breath, but it appears as tho' getting initial mana sources and imprinting black mana on Chrome Mox is a lot harder and cards like Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe add a lot of extra "cogs" to the deck.
Would you consider this strictly better or is it a "work in progress" kind of thing?
It's definitely a work in progress but I felt as though this avenue should be explored since it's a new discovery. It's also not strictly better due to needing another turn to finish off your opponent. ToA should definitely be replaced with burning wish (finding ToA and EtW only as stated above) and therefore does not count as a dead card. There are only 3 dead cards in the deck (journey, PiF, and DA) compared to at least 7 (4 narc + suture kill) in the previous version we worked on. Though a small issue, the cabal therapy in the suture kill has to self-target 3 cards as opposed to 2 (PiF is self-discarded through LED). Unless you're going with the angel kill, not having to go through the attack step is a huge deal. Due to this, you might even count the 2nd cabal therapy as a dead card since you'd have to name their removal. I've tested a lot in the past day and finally came to this list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Grim Monolith
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tinder Wall
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Wild Cantor
4 Manamorphose
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Memory's Journey
1 Deep Analysis
1 Past in Flames
1 Burning Wish
4 Living Wish
4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Geothermal Crevice
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Desecration Demon
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Chancellor of the Annex
The most glaring omissions are summoner's pact and goblin charbelcher. While very explosive, they are often terrible when you're forced to mulligan and in the face of disruption. It was tough to finally cut pact but I think it had to be done. Tinder wall helps bridge the gap between our initial mana and rogue. The red mana actually helps turn on manamorphose a lot of the time. Manamorphose is a lot better in this iteration than in the past because you can still store the mana in living wish and grim monolith if you fizzle. One thing to keep in mind with chrome mox is that you only need 4 mana instead of 5 if green is imprinted it. You can flashback memory's journey on your upkeep. LED gets a huge boost from this configuration as well. It's more explosive with undercity informer and isn't a dead card with balustrade spy. Living wish also gets better due to the reduced number of dead cards since we have more mana earlier. The cyclers were far too inconsistent and clunky to include. They reminded me of why we removed them in the first place. Drawing into extra rogues, wishes, and combo pieces felt terrible. It also made mulligan decisions harder. I went with chancellor of the annex instead of PoN for the same reasons why I cut summoner's pact.
Edit: Replacing burning wish with death wish for lab man is a great idea.
nudon, I really like the look of that list, but I do have to ask - that's a ton of dudes in the board. Do you really think it's worth playing all those dudes (Thrun, Lodestone Golem, Obliterator AND Desecration Demon), or was that to test out different men?
Thanks alphastryk! Including those creatures was just a matter of laying out the possible options. It's highly likely you only need 2 of the 4. Of the 4 options, I think I'll probably end up with obliterator and golem since they both hit the hardest. Golem should theoretically buy you some time against combo while providing a clock. It also can be cast off any colored mana. Obliterator was the strongest cmc4 creature I could think of.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
IDK, the deck looks like an excercise in mulliganing and goldfishing considering it loses to Surgical Extraction and it can't SB out Lion's Eye Diamond for Pact of Negation i.e. the only disruption that works in this deck is really either discard or Xantid Swarm?
If you need an ace up your sleave for Living Wish, I think Magus of the Moon will straight up steal games for you.
Surgical extraction and leyline of the void are definitely a concern. Living wish offers some help but it's likely not enough. I don't trust discard other than the singleton cabal therapy (pitching balustrade spy of course). Xantid swarm is interesting but I think 4x chancellor of the annex might be stronger. It'll be similar to the configuration we ran before with LEDs. Magus of the moon is a sick tech against the current meta. Thanks for the suggestion. Here are some minor changes I've made:Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Main Deck
-1 burning wish
-1 grim monolith
+1 cunning wish
+1 gitaxian probe
Sideboard
-1 gemstone mine
-1 tendrils
-1 etw
-1 demon
-1 thrun
+1 city of brass
+1 noxious revival
+1 laboratory maniac
+1 magus of the moon
+1 chancellor of the annex
I don't think burning and death wish are consistent enough to run as win-cons. However, I was able to make the deck completely ignore leyline of sanctity. After generating 7 mana off LEDs, use all but the blue (leftover from DA flashback) and black for PiF. Flashback all the dark rituals with the single black to go up to 10 total mana. Spend 3 to cast cunning wish for noxious revival. Revival then puts LED on top of the library for 2 life. For another 2 life, probe draws LED for triple green mana. Use 1 green mana to flashback revival, targeting LED. Flashback manamorphose to make blue mana and draw LED. Crack LED again and flashback living wish for lab man. Flashback manamorphose #2 to win. If they StP/bolt/decay lab man in response, flashback manamorphose #3.
MD: -1 cunning wish, -1 probe, +1 noxious revival, +1 grim monolith
SB: -1 noxious revival, +1 karakas
Slight oversight by me. There's no need to wish for revival. The good thing about this is revival isn't a dead card since it lets you recover faster from discard/counters.
There is no way it's worth it to increase the amount of dead cards you play to be able to beat Leyline of Sanctity. And why don't you try to build the deck such that it can transform into a Belcher variant post-board? If you actually have to fight through graveyard hate in every post-board game, then why would the deck be better than Belcher?
Good thing you figured out that Revival would be better in the main, because the previous line doesn't work. With Past in Flames you can only flash back cards that are in the graveyard at the time you cast PiF.Quote:
Originally Posted by nudon
I haven't had time to test this, but I find it hard to believe that not playing cantrips can be correct. How realistic is winning if you're forced to pass the turn unless you somehow have 4 (Spy) + 2 (Manamorphose) + 1 (Memory's Journey) = 7 mana.
I don't agree with your assessment of noxious revival being a dead card. It takes the same slot as burning/death wish and allows you to recover from discard. You get the benefit of beating leyline of sanctity for free. I have tested belcher in the main deck and haven't had success worth posting yet. As for the sb transformation, I think it's more important to get the md correct first. This deck has the potential of being better than belcher because EtW doesn't always get there. You only have to pass the turn once with memory's journey. With EtW, you pass the turn twice and sometimes even three times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Thanks for the clarification on PiF. Actually, 7 mana in general will win you the game as long as you have blue (off petal/manamorphose/LED). You can flashback DA right away and proceed to combo out. This line of play comes up more often than one would expect. Probe/wraith might be correct but is very clunky with chancellor of the tangle. I will re-explore this path alongside the tinder wall package instead of mox opal (terribly inconsistent). Summoner's pact is probably the most controversial card right now but way better if you're trying win all in 1 turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmutant
Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I've tried to incorporate all of your insights and have arrived at the list below:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
1 Memory's Journey
1 Deep Analysis
1 Past in Flames
1 Death Wish
3 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Undercity Informer
4 Balustrade Spy
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Land Grant
1 Taiga
This list is probably my most consistent iteration yet while still maintaining explosiveness. The decision tree with regards to cycling probe/wraith/manamorphose is the key to winning. There will be times where you want to cycle (digging for more mana to partially go off) and other times where you want to hold onto probe/wraith so you can kill all at once (i.e. summoner's pact in hand). Cycling is also generally advised with LED in hand since you'll be able to generate blue mana and kill all at once anyway. The decision of when to fire off with 4 mana and manamorphose in hand will depend on the game state. You will most likely want 1 green and 1 black mana off manamorphose but VERY IMPORTANT to know when to generate a blue (instead of a black/green), double black, or double green. Furthermore, 4 mana is often enough to partially go off as well with a [green] chrome mox in play.
Notable omissions:
Chancellor of the tangle - awkward with cycling effects
Cabal ritual - requires 2 mana investment and filtering later on; tinder wall is better
Grim monolith - worse than cabal ritual without chancellor
Living wish - destroys the sb and too mana intensive; might as well go for belcher
Empty the warrens - nonbo with summoner's pact
Pact of negation - nonbo with LED
Chancellor of the annex - awkward with cycling effects
The sideboard is actually a work in progress. The idea is that we're a heavy underdog against FoW decks. Therefore, the spoils of the vault acts as #5-8 copies of xantid swarm as well as #5-8 copies of belcher. The transformation involves 13 cards from the sb (everything but ToA and lab-man). You then would remove all 8 rogues, 4 dead combo pieces, and a wraith. Wraith isn't great since the life loss matters a lot with spoils of the vault. I'll re-iterate that the sb plan is conceptual and has a lot of room for improvement.