[Deck] UWR Delver

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Originally Posted by The Spanish Tunnel King

I understand both this deck (or at least my version of it) and Canadian Thresh very well - as my recent successes with it can demonstrate. Thats exactly why I leave the stoneforge at home... The tempo build is harder to play, which might be a turn off for some people, but well worth the investment in time. Its amazing how much value you can squeeze out of cards :). One thing that might be worth noting is that I firmly believe the tempo build is better in the mirror, which is more and more prevalent these days...

But yeah, it might be worth starting a new thread, as people here tend to talk across each other. But I guess its not practical... Its a shame because it would be nice getting some quality input if I tried to hone my deck some more....

Anywho, peace

The Spanish Tunnel King

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I agree getting more quality imput is important. But I think that reacting to each other still is important, I don't think a tempo build is worse then the current build but I think RUG has most of the time a better tempo plan. You probably understand that the results you got are not really an argument for your list being better then a list that WON A GP (which is probably a better result then you got).

For me the harder the deck gets the more I want to play it. I really like it to play decks that are hard to play.

Anywho, peace

I like having X3 TNN and the 20 lands. I cut one plow and moved to the sideboard. I figured that TNN is a great blocker and very good against agro so it makes up for only have three plow main deck.

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Originally Posted by skinnytalls

I like having X3 TNN and the 20 lands. I cut one plow and moved to the sideboard. I figured that TNN is a great blocker and very good against agro so it makes up for only have three plow main deck.

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Hmm this is actually a great idea, I'll try it out :)

Any thoughts on side-boarding strategies vs. BUG Delver and Shardless BUG? It seems like we have a lot of relevant cards for these match ups, how should I prioritize them?

Starting from Owen's GP list, I was thinking of something like this:

SHARDLESS BUG
Out (9)
Force of Will x4
Daze x4
Umezawa's Jitte

In (9)
Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast x3
Rest in Peace x2
Grim Lavamancer x2
Swords of Feast and Famine
True-Name Nemesis

Leaving only Spellpierce and REB/Pyroblast for counter magic as these will hit most of the scary spells that Shardless BUG can cast - Lilliana, Ancestral Visions, Hymn and Jace. I am unsure about bringing in Lavamancer, but I figure if I can untap with it I will be able to keep my opponent's board clear with help from Swords to Plowshares to deal with Goyf.


BUG DELVER
Out(6)
Force of Will x4
Daze x1
Umezawa's Jitte

In
RIP x2
Sword of Feast and Famine
True-Name Nemesis
Meddling Mage x2

Meddling Mage usually naming Abrupt Decay. RIP is also good in this matchup, as well as SoF&F. I have considered siding in REB/Pyroblast to help against delvers and also counter annoying spells like stifle, but don't think its quite good enough.

A Couple pages back there was discussion of geist vs tnn. I'm wondering what your thoughts and opinions of geist vs. Clique is for the side. Obviously the question is aimed at siding out tnn for one or the other, keeping the unfair and control matchups in mind.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

A Couple pages back there was discussion of geist vs tnn. I'm wondering what your thoughts and opinions of geist vs. Clique is for the side. Obviously the question is aimed at siding out tnn for one or the other, keeping the unfair and control matchups in mind.

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Would definitely go with clique between the two. slower clock, but I feel the information and disruption that clique provide are more prominent.

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Originally Posted by SansSerif

Any thoughts on side-boarding strategies vs. BUG Delver and Shardless BUG? It seems like we have a lot of relevant cards for these match ups, how should I prioritize them?

Starting from Owen's GP list, I was thinking of something like this:

SHARDLESS BUG
Out (9)
Force of Will x4
Daze x4
Umezawa's Jitte

In (9)
Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast x3
Rest in Peace x2
Grim Lavamancer x2
Swords of Feast and Famine
True-Name Nemesis

Leaving only Spellpierce and REB/Pyroblast for counter magic as these will hit most of the scary spells that Shardless BUG can cast - Lilliana, Ancestral Visions, Hymn and Jace. I am unsure about bringing in Lavamancer, but I figure if I can untap with it I will be able to keep my opponent's board clear with help from Swords to Plowshares to deal with Goyf.


BUG DELVER
Out(6)
Force of Will x4
Daze x1
Jitte x1

In
RIP x2
Sword of Feast and Famine x1
True-Name Nemesis x1
Meddling Mage x2

Meddling Mage usually naming Abrupt Decay. RIP is also good in this matchup, as well as SoF&F. I have considered siding in REB/Pyroblast to help against delvers and also counter annoying spells like stifle, but don't think its quite good enough.

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the two meddling mage is an interesting idea. everything else is definitely correct.

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Originally Posted by SansSerif

Any thoughts on side-boarding strategies vs. BUG Delver and Shardless BUG? It seems like we have a lot of relevant cards for these match ups, how should I prioritize them?

Starting from Owen's GP list, I was thinking of something like this:

SHARDLESS BUG
Out (9)
Force of Will x4
Daze x4
Umezawa's Jitte

In (9)
Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast x3
Rest in Peace x2
Grim Lavamancer x2
Swords of Feast and Famine
True-Name Nemesis

Leaving only Spellpierce and REB/Pyroblast for counter magic as these will hit most of the scary spells that Shardless BUG can cast - Lilliana, Ancestral Visions, Hymn and Jace. I am unsure about bringing in Lavamancer, but I figure if I can untap with it I will be able to keep my opponent's board clear with help from Swords to Plowshares to deal with Goyf.


BUG DELVER
Out(6)
Force of Will x4
Daze x1
Jitte x1

In
RIP x2
Sword of Feast and Famine x1
True-Name Nemesis x1
Meddling Mage x2

Meddling Mage usually naming Abrupt Decay. RIP is also good in this matchup, as well as SoF&F. I have considered siding in REB/Pyroblast to help against delvers and also counter annoying spells like stifle, but don't think its quite good enough.

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Against shardless Bug and Bug delver jitte is really good, against the delver variants you don't need SOFAF and against the shardless decks your really happy to have 3 equipments in your deck. I would SB like this:

Shardless bug:

On the play:
out (8):

4 Fow
2 daze
2 spell pierce

in (8):
1 sword of feats and famine
2 RIP
2 grim lavamancer
2 red elemental blast / pyroblast
1 true-name nemesis

on the draw :

out (9):

4 Fow
4 daze
1 spell pierce

in (9):

1 sword of feats and famine
2 RIP
2 grim lavamancer
3 red elemental blast / pyroblast
1 true-name nemesis

against BUG delver:

on the play:

out (4) :
4 FOW

in (4):
2 rest in peace
1 true - name nemesis
1 meddling mage

on the draw:

out (6):
4 FOW
2 daze

in (6):
2 rest in peace
1 true-name nemesis
3 red elemental blast/pyroblast (more answers for delvers and brainstorms those are the important ones)

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Originally Posted by Jitse

Against shardless Bug and Bug delver jitte is really good, against the delver variants you don't need SOFAF and against the shardless decks your really happy to have 3 equipments in your deck.

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You are probably right, Jitte does seem much better against BUG Delver than SoFAF.

Against Shardless BUG, do you like 3 equipment because of Abrupt Decay? While I understand the impulse, as a Shardless BUG player I am always happy when my opponent takes the time to fetch up Jitte. They end up investing 6 mana (2 to play Stoneforge, 2 to bring Jitte into play, and 2 to equipment) which I can nullify for 2 mana.

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Originally Posted by Jitse

against BUG delver:

on the play:

out (4) :
4 FOW

in (4):
2 rest in peace
1 true - name nemesis
1 meddling mage

on the draw:

out (6):
4 FOW
2 daze

in (6):
2 rest in peace
1 true-name nemesis
3 red elemental blast/pyroblast (more answers for delvers and brainstorms those are the important ones)

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I like this plan a lot. Keep in Spellpierce, and on the draw bring in REB/Pyroblast in place of daze.

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Originally Posted by SansSerif

Against Shardless BUG, do you like 3 equipment because of Abrupt Decay? While I understand the impulse, as a Shardless BUG player I am always happy when my opponent takes the time to fetch up Jitte. They end up investing 6 mana (2 to play Stoneforge, 2 to bring Jitte into play, and 2 to equipment) which I can nullify for 2 mana.

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Shardless bug has only 4 abrupt decays in the deck and the order of searching with stoneforge is often:
Batterskull --> SoFaF --> Jitte . And it's so important against this deck to have you stoneforge's being alive. Also getting an equipment online is really good in this matchup, If I play a turn 2 stoneforge searching jitte it's probably correct for you to decay the stoneforge to prevent me from putting a batterskull into play (and with a stoneforge in play it's quite easy to reput the batterskull into play if you decay the token). Baleful strix is pretty scary and jitte does a good job against that.

Stuff shardless Bug wants to abrupt decay in order of importancy (I think):
SoFaF -> Stoneforge mystic -> Jitte -> grim lavamancer -> delver of secrets -> germ token

These are a total of 13 cards vs 4 abrupt decay's. They can't always decay your jitte.

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Originally Posted by Jitse

Stuff shardless Bug wants to abrupt decay in order of importancy (I think):

SoFaF -> Stoneforge mystic -> Jitte -> grim lavamancer -> delver of secrets -> germ token



These are a total of 13 cards vs 4 abrupt decay's. They can't always decay your jitte.

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if there are people in your meta playing any BUG variant, just run some diverts in the sideboard. It's good against jund, too.

"Hymn me? Nonono, Hymn you."

Hello everybody! I'm a recovering sneak & show player who is now trying to get good at playing this deck :) Today I went to my local weekly legacy only to find it not happening because the store needed the playingroom for storing stuff now before Christmas. So instead of a tournament I ended up playing a massive 4 hour session with this deck vs a really good players RUG delver list. What I noticed was that the stifle/wasteland from RUG really is what the match comes down to: every time he successfully managed to deny me 2 or more land I never got to come back. I might have walked into this trap more times than needed due to being sort of new with the deck but I wanted to ask you guys: how do you view the match-up vs RUG?

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Originally Posted by Pennywise the clown

Hello everybody! I'm a recovering sneak & show player who is now trying to get good at playing this deck :) Today I went to my local weekly legacy only to find it not happening because the store needed the playingroom for storing stuff now before Christmas. So instead of a tournament I ended up playing a massive 4 hour session with this deck vs a really good players RUG delver list. What I noticed was that the stifle/wasteland from RUG really is what the match comes down to: every time he successfully managed to deny me 2 or more land I never got to come back. I might have walked into this trap more times than needed due to being sort of new with the deck but I wanted to ask you guys: how do you view the match-up vs RUG?

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In the tempo/tempo mirror, the RUG player is going to have the advantage due to the Stifles. If you run Stifles of your own, it would help even the match-up, but RUG can run off of less land (their only 2cc is Goyf), while our mana curve is much higher (SFM, TNN). However, you've got some bombs in post-board games (Grim, RiP).

You've got to play smart - if you are on the draw, either hold your fetches or crack them on your opponent's upkeep. You also want to keep heavier land hands and Ponder/Brainstorm for land more frequently. In match one, if you can land a Batterskull, it's almost always GG.

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

In the tempo/tempo mirror, the RUG player is going to have the advantage due to the Stifles. If you run Stifles of your own, it would help even the match-up, but RUG can run off of less land (their only 2cc is Goyf), while our mana curve is much higher (SFM, TNN). However, you've got some bombs in post-board games (Grim, RiP).

You've got to play smart - if you are on the draw, either hold your fetches or crack them on your opponent's upkeep. You also want to keep heavier land hands and Ponder/Brainstorm for land more frequently. In match one, if you can land a Batterskull, it's almost always GG.

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I think the RUG Delver matchup should be in our favor. As already stated, they are the better tempo deck due to Stifles, but we have more bombs and things they can't handle (Batterskull, TNN). We can also handle their threads better: Bolt for Delver, StoP for Goyf, which only leaves Nimble Mongoose as a real threat. As long as you can keep their creatures off the table, the game will inevitably get to a state where we have the edge.
Postboard, if we get a RiP to stick and they don't play Krosan Grip, its almost over. I don't agree on Grim Lavamancer though, it doesn't do much except killing a Delver. Also, they cannot bring Submerge in against us, which is their best removal spell postboard.

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Originally Posted by TkDodo

I think the RUG Delver matchup should be in our favor. As already stated, they are the better tempo deck due to Stifles, but we have more bombs and things they can't handle (Batterskull, TNN). We can also handle their threads better: Bolt for Delver, StoP for Goyf, which only leaves Nimble Mongoose as a real threat. As long as you can keep their creatures off the table, the game will inevitably get to a state where we have the edge.
Postboard, if we get a RiP to stick and they don't play Krosan Grip, its almost over. I don't agree on Grim Lavamancer though, it doesn't do much except killing a Delver. Also, they cannot bring Submerge in against us, which is their best removal spell postboard.

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RUG Delver has a lot of good cards after G1 2 Ancient Grudge againt Jitte and BS, 2-3 REB against Delver, TNN, BS, Ponder, Countermagic, Pierce or Flusterstorm against Bolt, Swords, Countermagic or RIP (only Pierce). And even if they don't draw one of those cards they have 4 Stifle available for the RIP trigger, SFM/BS Trigger.
I think if both players draw normal and are quiet experienced with theyre decks the RUG Deck is still in favor because it's just the better tempo deck (lower manacurve and stifle's).
If TNN or BS succesfully resove against RUG it's truly bad for them but it's very difficult to do so!

Greetings

Thanks for the answers! :smile:

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

In the tempo/tempo mirror, the RUG player is going to have the advantage due to the Stifles. If you run Stifles of your own, it would help even the match-up, but RUG can run off of less land (their only 2cc is Goyf), while our mana curve is much higher (SFM, TNN). However, you've got some bombs in post-board games (Grim, RiP).

You've got to play smart - if you are on the draw, either hold your fetches or crack them on your opponent's upkeep. You also want to keep heavier land hands and Ponder/Brainstorm for land more frequently. In match one, if you can land a Batterskull, it's almost always GG.

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I had stifle in my build but decided to try it without them yesterday. Sometimes having stifle instead of spell pierce would have helped. Maybe something as simple as 1-2 basic lands could help the matchup but I'm not to positive about doing that.

I played RUG three times when I managed to Top 8 SCG LA. I went 3-0 against it (my rounds 8 & 9 were RUG players so they weren't slouches with the deck). Game 1 was rough for me (lost 2/3 of my Game 1s) because my list only had 2 Swords to Plowshares maindeck, so Tarmogoyf was very good against me. Game 2/3 is much better because Rest in Peace is so good against them.

The number one priority in the matchup I discovered is focus on developing your manabase in the early game. You have a stronger end game, but a much more mana/turn intensive late game, so you really need to get to that point in the game where you can afford to spend a turn casting Stoneforge/flash in Batterskull. Batterskull and Jitte will gain you the life back, so just don't fall into Bolt range. For example, I would rather just cast a couple cantrips the first couple turns and wait to cast Stoneforge on turns 4-5 rather than running Stoneforge out, only for it to hit Daze/Bolt, then get Wastelanded out of the game.

I suspect Game 1 is probably a little bit better nowadays due to True-Name Nemesis MD now (I ran him SB), since that can just fog a Goyf all day while being gas with equipment.

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Originally Posted by Pennywise the clown

Hello everybody! I'm a recovering sneak & show player who is now trying to get good at playing this deck :) Today I went to my local weekly legacy only to find it not happening because the store needed the playingroom for storing stuff now before Christmas. So instead of a tournament I ended up playing a massive 4 hour session with this deck vs a really good players RUG delver list. What I noticed was that the stifle/wasteland from RUG really is what the match comes down to: every time he successfully managed to deny me 2 or more land I never got to come back. I might have walked into this trap more times than needed due to being sort of new with the deck but I wanted to ask you guys: how do you view the match-up vs RUG?

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I do think it's actually a very good matchup as long as you see yourself as the control deck and not as the tempo deck you usually are. start the game with cantripping and leaving fetches untapped instead of cracking them, while playing some Bolts and STPs on there dudes. Play around pierce and daze as much as you can, and hold back your TNN's on blocking purpose. Your TNN's are def not to play them on turn 3 and smash with them your TNN's are here to play them on turn 6 and make your opponent just unable to attack on the ground 1 TNN basically brickwalls a tarmogoyf and a nimble mongoose. This makes the game go long which makes your equipments win the game. You also have the land advantage since you play 2 more. Also remember when you have an hand with for example a wasteland a tundra and a volcanic and you don't want to cast a Turn 1 cantrip, it's very reasonable to play wasteland out first without wasting your opponent just to prevent your opponent from wasting you (if he would waste your wasteland you could waste another land in response and that's no good for your opponent). Another intresting situation is you having a bolt and daze in hand, tundra and volcanic untapped and your opponent wastes you, you can bolt his dude and daze your bolt bouncing the land your opponent wastes (probably tundra) and paying for the daze. After board the matchup also gets a lot better I would sb like this:

- 4 FOW
- 4 spell pierce (on the draw)
- 4 daze (on the play)

+ 2 red elemnental blast
+ 1 pyroblast
+ 2 grim lavamancer
+ 2 rest in peace
+ 1 TNN

daze is more powerful as pierce but it's really hard to play around your opponent dazes when your playing daze yourself.
After board it's so nice how:
2 grim, 1 jitte, 3 red/pyroblast and 4 bolt deal with delver
3 TNN, 2 RIP and 1 Batterskull deal with mongoose
3 TNN, 2 RIP and 4 STP deal with tarmogoyf

Can we consolidate the new core build now that we have TNN? Something like:

4 Delver
3-4 SFM
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
0-1 Other equipment (this might not even belong here, I've seen maybe one build with SoFI)
2-3 TNN
0-2 grim lavamancer
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Ponder
6-8 removal spells (bolt or STP)
3-4 FoW
4 daze
4 spell pierce OR stifle OR some mix of the two
19-21 lands


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