Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H3llsp4wn
This is just nonsense.
You've got 3 Cunning Wishes, 4 Merchant Scrolls and a shitload of cantrips to find what you need and there is a reason why the "German" list has already proven to be consistent enough to put up results.
I've been testing faeries lately, but before that i played the german list for a year or so.
1. You do put a bf in your sideboard, you can't win consistently by usz without 'labras. I found my win ratio to be something like 1/3 usz - 2/3 brain freeze.
2. Feline's list works because she uses her only md turnabout to untap multiple copies of candelabra in order to have tons of mana (you can see that on scg videos). Without candelabras, you shouldn't drop to less than 3 copies md and 1 side. Turnabout is just the best untapper (imho better than candles) because it does what snap+faeries do, just in one card.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TiMeWaLk
Feline plays 4 Candles and Turnabout is mainly there to untap 2 Candles or more. It is a completely different setup. You'll see that Turnabout is also very important to tap the lands of your opponent, a thing that Cloud cannot do.
If you can use BSZ to kill, it is perfect. However, it is possible to struggle generating such a large amount of mana without candles. I am not saying you cannot do it, but if I have to run a list without Brain Frezze, it's for sure a list with Candles. But you have it anyway :wink:
I tried a goldfish all the way through the combo with the 3rd Turnabout. I find myself needed it because the Candel-less version leans more heavily on High Tides and Turnabouts for a lethal USZ, so I took out the Swan Song for it. Thanks for the advice.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cave
I've been testing faeries lately, but before that i played the german list for a year or so.
1. You do put a bf in your sideboard, you can't win consistently by usz without 'labras. I found my win ratio to be something like 1/3 usz - 2/3 brain freeze.
I agree that while it is advisable to have Brain Freeze in the sideboard for candel-less builds, the win ratio between Blue Sun's Zenith and Brain Freeze isn't as bad as you suggest that it is. I have been consistently able to win using Blue Sun's Zenith (about 75%-80% of the time) vs. a variety of decks such as RUG Delver, 12-post, and Pox. Sometimes I will use Brain Freeze to play it safe vs. decks with counters if I know as a fact that they don't have shuffle effects and I don't have much other cards in my hand, but that was about it.
In candelabra builds, it would be advisable to have Brain Freeze in the sideboard anyway.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
In candelabra builds, it would be advisable to have Brain Freeze in the sideboard anyway.
I have been playing without for quite some time now, and I never lost because I lacked Brain Freeze. My version is a bit special since I play Capsize in the Brain Freeze slot.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TiMeWaLk
I have been playing without for quite some time now, and I never lost because I lacked Brain Freeze. My version is a bit special since I play Capsize in the Brain Freeze slot.
What do you have in your sideboard?
I have:
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Capsize
1x Wipe Away
1x Echoing Truth
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Turnabout
1x Meditate
1x Intuition
1x Flusterstorm
1x Pact of Negation
1x Rebuild
1x Surgical Extraction
There were a few very random times where I had to rely on brain freeze to win but that was about it.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
This is what I played recently:
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
12 Island
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Capsize
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Snap
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Intuition
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Mystic Remora
SB: 1 Swan Song
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TiMeWaLk
If I am not mistaken, the German list you are referring to is playing 1 Brain Freeze in the side board. If you meant something different, you can just explain it.
Since you were directly addressing elijah and he had a BF in his SB, I was under the impression you commented his lack of BF in the mainboard, which is completely fine.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
His list was without Brain Freeze when I commented. He edited it after.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
203995014
I agree that while it is advisable to have Brain Freeze in the sideboard for candel-less builds, the win ratio between Blue Sun's Zenith and Brain Freeze isn't as bad as you suggest that it is. I have been consistently able to win using Blue Sun's Zenith (about 75%-80% of the time) vs. a variety of decks such as RUG Delver, 12-post, and Pox. Sometimes I will use Brain Freeze to play it safe vs. decks with counters if I know as a fact that they don't have shuffle effects and I don't have much other cards in my hand, but that was about it.
In candelabra builds, it would be advisable to have Brain Freeze in the sideboard anyway.
I don't know, I attended 2 minor events and a big tournament with the deck so far (german list). I highly dislike winning by blue sun's zenith and I do it only if I'm forced to do so because of high chance of having emrakuls in the opponent's deck. I find much much easier to storm it up. In order to kill with blue sun's zenith one might want to free topdeck multiple high tides post-spiral, which is one of the best scenarios I could imagine already.
Meh, I guess it's really a matter of how you perceive and play the deck; we are obviously different in that.
For example, I want to be ready-to-go turn 4 no matter what happens because nowadays I feel legacy is so full of weird plays and bombcards who can turn around the game and give more fuel to the opponent: say, ginger dudes or ginger girls cascading into ancestral vision, fueling more disruption; random confidants which give more edge the more they stay in play, etc.
I find the german list very consistent in winning turn 4; so far i've been cutting the MD pact and a turnabout for two faeries, and the three preordains for three tops (just to play something similar to the Italian list 2-3 posts above) and I'm not really satisfied with it. I don't find it very consistent, tops are good against discard but somewhat limit your ability to dig through the deck.
And I really feel lacking MD pact and MD intuition are big limits in this build.
Just for being complete, here's what i've been testing post-milan
12 Island
6 Fetchlands
4 High Tide
3 Turnabout
2 Cloud of Faeries
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Gigadrowse
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
2 Mystic Remora
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Bombed out at SCGMKE, 5-4. The previous at the MTGdeals open I also only went 3-3. Hoping this less impressive run is over, because SCGSeattle is in 5 days! Hoping for some home town advantage for High Tide SCG attempt #10 on Oct-20th
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
@feline
Good luck! :wink:
@Cave
In the logic of going off turn 4, Meditate is useless. They are incredible post Spiral, that's for sure. It is interesting to see that you comment on the format being "fast", so you want to go off turn 4 (which I agree with), but do not shave the Meditates.
About the 3 Tops instead of 3 Preordain, I am not surprised that you do not like this setup. I played something similar (with Cloud of Faeries and 4 Tops) and it was horrible, mainly because preordains are so much better at finding your land drops (and cost less mana overall).
Pre-spiral, Top and Meditate are similar, in the sense that they protect you from discard spells (BS with Top to hide HT and Spiral is monstruous) and let you see more cards. I guess that, what I am trying to say, is that Tops should replace the Meditates (maybe not completely if you are attached to them). I can elaborate more on that if needed since I actually played with and without candles and also without other untapers than turnabout.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TiMeWaLk
@Cave
In the logic of going off turn 4, Meditate is useless. They are incredible post Spiral, that's for sure. It is interesting to see that you comment on the format being "fast", so you want to go off turn 4 (which I agree with), but do not shave the Meditates.
I don't know about the format being fast; all I know is that the format is resilient. Many times in tournament or in playtest against friends I have wondered why on earth is possible that the guy on the opposite side of the table has fast clock on the table, never missed a land drop, countered plenty of your stuff, and still has 5-7 cards in hand.
On meditates, the German list is designed to go off turn 4 no matter what, and still packs 3+1 of them. I *could* (and will) try without them but me but I don't know, I think I'll feel I have no businness to work with. I've recently lost a tournament match in milan and a playtest match with friends because I was forced to go off without a spiral: so I started comboing, dug 20-25 cards and found no stuff to storm with. Unreal situations where you ponder into three lands, shuffle, draw 1 land, meditate into three more island and a force of will are not uncommon for me.
But yeah, your suggestion is interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TiMeWaLk
About the 3 Tops instead of 3 Preordain, I am not surprised that you do not like this setup. I played something similar (with Cloud of Faeries and 4 Tops) and it was horrible, mainly because preordains are so much better at finding your land drops (and cost less mana overall).
Yep, i'm really missing the preordains.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TiMeWaLk
Pre-spiral, Top and Meditate are similar, in the sense that they protect you from discard spells (BS with Top to hide HT and Spiral is monstruous) and let you see more cards. I guess that, what I am trying to say, is that Tops should replace the Meditates (maybe not completely if you are attached to them). I can elaborate more on that if needed since I actually played with and without candles and also without other untapers than turnabout.
I think i'm taking your list -2 candles + 2 Faes and I'm testing it. Perhaps also gonna drop a preordain for an Intuition. I'll see how it works without meditates since i'm already testing new stuff (Faeries, which I hate btw).
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
@Cave,
About taking my list and doing those changes... I am flattered but I am not sure that you are going to get the same feeling. One of the strength of this list is to be able to combo with 1 cunning wish into Capsize, after 2 Tides (and 4 islands), and win if you have Candle + Top on the board. It is not really conventional, I admit. You can also notice the absence of Brain Freeze since the list is designed to win 1 side board slot and kill no matter what with BSZ. Since you said you like BF a lot, I am not sure you are going to be satisfied. Without Candles you may find Tops a bit expansive post-Spiral. Of course, feel free to try it (but I would try with my list unchanged first to feel the difference).
The thing I am the less satisfied with my list is that Candles are not blue... I am even going to 1 Candle in certain side boarded games (but I still keep one for the capsize kill). On the positive side, Tops are awesome here. I imagine, each time I have a top, if I would have been happier with a Meditate. The answer pre-Spiral is just never.
I like your idea of shaving 1 preordain for 1 intuition :wink: esthoril tried to convince me about this too...
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
I mean i'm taking your maindeck. For sure i'm still winning by freeze.
Oh and you don't have to be flattered (or, should you? whatever, I don't know :laugh:) it's just that I've been pretty unsatisfied with my pet deck high tide lately and I'm opening myself as many possibilities as I can; your build seems reasonable so...it's just another thing I might try and see if it brings more advantages than weak points.
I just feel there *is* something I can do for the deck to perform better, but I don't know what and i'm trying to figure out.
Intuition is just too good. I don't know how people can play without it.
edit incoming.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Yes, intuition is very good and I have one in my side board. However, I was not sure about having one in the main board because it feels clunky post side board from time to time. There are games when you have it in hand and you just don't know if you should cast it at the end of turn on Spiral or not (opening yourself to Surgical Extraction). Maybe this issue is rare enough to forget it.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TiMeWaLk
In the logic of going off turn 4, Meditate is useless. They are incredible post Spiral, that's for sure. It is interesting to see that you comment on the format being "fast", so you want to go off turn 4 (which I agree with), but do not shave the Meditates.
I have actually found myself Wishing or Scrolling into a Meditate a couple of times right before I knew I was about to die. If you absolutely need to go off NOW without all of your combo pieces, I've found it's your best bet. It's much riskier with only 3 lands in play but it IS doable, and if it's my only out to not losing, I'll take it. Meditate is clunky in your opening hand, but I've found it's powerful enough that even if I don't have a Brainstorm, I'm still fine keeping the hand unless it's absolute garbage or I'm playing against a deck with Thoughtseizes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TiMeWaLk
About the 3 Tops instead of 3 Preordain, I am not surprised that you do not like this setup. I played something similar (with Cloud of Faeries and 4 Tops) and it was horrible, mainly because preordains are so much better at finding your land drops (and cost less mana overall).
I'm not running them, but I can see their merits. When I was playing Counterbalance in Game 1 against Sneak and Show, I played against an opponent who deemed the Top so important he Forced my turn 1 play, which slows them down. I get this is probably more of an outlier than anything, but it does occur.
Preordains do filter, similar to the Top, but you're probably using the draw spells in conjunction with the Top to get rid of the cards you don't want to see because you can't run more fetchlands at the risk of getting Stifled more often. They allow you to see the extra card which could be better than ripping a blind card, you can do it at instant speed, and whenever you need to draw a card post Spiral, you've got it on the board for those emergencies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TiMeWaLk
Yes, intuition is very good and I have one in my side board. However, I was not sure about having one in the main board because it feels clunky post side board from time to time. There are games when you have it in hand and you just don't know if you should cast it at the end of turn on Spiral or not (opening yourself to Surgical Extraction). Maybe this issue is rare enough to forget it.
The thing I specifically didn't like about Intuition is that it's a GIGANTIC liability in games 2 and 3 (unless you're playing against people able to Game 1 Wish for Extraction, go figure). Game 1 you can just EoT win the game, but I took the card out of my sideboard because you set yourself up to get blown out by Extirpate and Extraction, and you need another counter to fend off the Extraction, which really stretches your resources having to pick up at least 2 and probably more than that because they're siding in Red Elemental Blasts, Pyroblasts, and Mindbreak Traps, not counting the Delver decks that might have something. I have pushed through the damage by cantripping into Turnabouts and other stuff before while they wait to Blast your Spiral while still snagging a smattering of counterspells, where sometimes you just need your Scrolls and Wishes for actual big combo pieces. It's really rough and really tight, but doable, but I would prefer not to expose myself to such a huge unnecessary vulnerability in trade for such a powerful game 1 play.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Also, has anybody tried testing out Visions of Beyond? Card seems conditionally good but 1 mana can be the difference between winning and losing in the deck. I don't think it's something you maindeck, though.
@feline, have you played against any Painted Stone decks? Because I'd like to know how often they try blowing up land since it's just a blowout against the deck.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
elijah
Also, has anybody tried testing out Visions of Beyond? Card seems conditionally good but 1 mana can be the difference between winning and losing in the deck. I don't think it's something you maindeck, though.
@feline, have you played against any Painted Stone decks? Because I'd like to know how often they try blowing up land since it's just a blowout against the deck.
Card seems bad considering you're likely casting Time Spiral before you have 20 cards in your graveyard. There are times where you might draw 3 for 1, but they are few and far between.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TiMeWaLk
My version is a bit special since I play Capsize in the Brain Freeze slot.
Huh, Capsize is special? I would never play Candles without Capsize in the board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
elijah
Also, has anybody tried testing out Visions of Beyond?
Doesn't really mix well with Spiral. Plus, when I have 20 cards in my graveyard I've pretty much already won.
I probably wouldn't even play it with Frantic Search (and yes, I've testet that :laugh:)...
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Derklord
Huh, Capsize is special? I would never play Candles without Capsize in the board.
Capsize is really win-more. It's cute, but not necessary.
