What has changed to stop the winning?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
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What has changed to stop the winning?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
The win/loss-rate is
good with that deck, it is really better than Canadian :-)
How was todays tourney?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
I've made a deviation in 'the plan' that I'm going to test out. I run 3 goyfs, it seem to work well in the Toronto Meta.
Main:
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic island
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
7 Fetches
Side:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyrobast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Rakdos Charm
notes: i've been wanting to add spell pierce and the 3rd spell snare to the deck. after seeing Owen Turtenwald win GPDC and seeing zero copies of stifle in his deck, it gave me the idea that those could be the slots that i use. After seeing GP and what a pain it was to deal with True-Name, I wanted to go to 3 redblast effects and 2 golgari charm. I added the rakdos charm as another way to interact with artifacts. True Name is good, but its equipment that sends it over the edge. It has the side benefit of being a 2nd piece of graveyard hate. I doubt the deal damage for every creature you have will be relevant, but it might be good vs elves, death and taxes, lingering souls, a bunch of tokens. Its probably more cute that good and likely better as another grudge. I like having a 3rd abrupt in the side, because there are matches where i just want more. The addition of True Name in the board can play a strong defensive role, almost justifying its spot in removal for its ability to deny your opponent from attacking.
Your list would be perfect if it would not lack Stifle. You know we have a tricky manabase that does not always work out. That is why we need Stifle to protect ourselves from opposing Wastelands :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormod
Perhaps you noticed that I did not post a lot the last few days. The reason was that I watched the meta game shifts and wanted to change the deck to be good in the future meta. Even at my local tournament on Saturday that is slow to meta game changes, nearly every one played True-Name Nemesis. I was beaten brutally by Nemesis. In the first 3 rounds out of seven I ran into 6 (!!!) cast copies of TNN - some were countered, some were removed but it is bad to be hit by the second copy as many people run 3-4 Nemesis - at least after boarding. I dropped after 3 rounds as it was no fun and went home and brainstormed/tested for the rest of the weekend how bUrg can handle that situation. The GP DC and the strong showings of TNN will make the hype to continue.
My testings show that 3 Rebs and 2 Golgari Charms reliably fight TNN. That is why we need drastic sideboard changes. Ashiok was cute but I wanted to streamline things and have just a solid, flexible sideboard without experiments.
With TNN our Goyfs and Mongeese - the latter more than the former - became weaker. Delver and Shaman are now our most important creatures due to the evasion they provide. We need to protect them better. As Snare does not handle Nemesis and does not proect our creatures *and* is weak to the popular Sneak and Show decks, we need Spell Pierce to return to your main decks.
As we need our Forces and Dazes to answer Nemesis more spot removal is needed for other creatures hitting the ground.
Ladies and Gentlemen let me introduce you to "New bUrg":
Deck: Sasan's new bUrg.dec
Maindeck: 60
Creatures:12
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
Spells:30
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Piere
1 Izzet Charm
1 Dismember
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
Lands:18
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:15
3 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
1 Fire Covenant
2 Golgari Charm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Tropical Island
Why do we run only 3 Mongeese? The meta has shifted towards True-Name Nemesis as the most played "hard-to-kill" creature. As Nemesis can block and kill Mongoose our little hero has become weaker. With only 7 fetchlands and no Probes Mongoose does not reach Thresh that fast. As the number of Decay decks has declined, it is not hurting ourselves to run only 3 Mongeese. Playing 3 Mongeese can give us the opportunity to run 12 creatures - 13 always felt clunky as we had to cut important spells.
Spell Snare *was* a good meta call. Spell Snare is a hard counter that can interact with all key spells of all decks to beat (Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Counterbalance, Burning Wish, Punishing Fire, Chalice of the Void on one, Rest in Peace, Stoneforge Msytic). Spell Pierce is more flexible and can protect our creatures from removal - Delver and Shaman became more important in the True-Name Nemesis meta as we must overcome the wall Nemesis provides. Spell Pierce also hits many key spells and is useable versus Sneak Attack whereas Snare is a blank. That is why I would now recommend running 3 Spell Pierces in your main deck. 1 Spell Pierce is disguised as an Izzet Charm.
Izzet Charm is a fantastic card that is very flexible. It is a removal spell and a soft counter in one card. Plus it can let us reach Thresh more aggressively.
With Decays and Izzet Charm costing 2 mana each, we need another, faster removal at instant speed that can kill nearly every creature in the format. As we do not run Spell Snares and have only 2 Goyfs we want to handle opposing Goyfs. The removal spell of choice is Dismember. It is castable with nearly no drawback thanks to the lifegain ability of Shaman. Dismember can answer a Batterskull token, can handle Griselbrand with the help of one of your other removal spells etc. - it is the best creature spot removal in a tempo deck right now.
With 8 pieces of removal - including 2 that can hit artifacts and enchantments - there is no way a permanent will stay long on the opponent's battlefield.
3 Pierces handle the non-creature/non-artifact spells - planeswalkers and enchantments. That is a huge counter/removal suite besides the Forces/Dazes. With this configuration Spell Snare is not needed anymore.
Tropical Island in the sideboard: And now we come to a innovation. I must admit it: bUrg can have some moments where the mana base does not work out - especially versus opponents playing Wastelands AND Stifles/Ports. In the past I suggested you to play Loam to stabilize in those matchups. But Loam needs to man. That is why a real land is better. Tropical Island can cast our cantrip and threats and is therefore chosen. Feel free to run other lands in that spot for example Underground Sea or even a basic island. But do not run a fetch land as we need a Stifle-proof option here. The Tropical Island is boarded in versus tempo mirrors. Those matchups come down to the question who has more lands in play. Tropical Island is also boarded in versus matchups where I board out our protection suite - aka Stifle. It is awkard to know that Stifle does not have value in a matchup (GW Maverick, Merfolk) but needs to stay in to protect your mana base from opposing wastelands. So ladies and gentlemen, play a land in your sideboard. You will never ever regret it.
Hope you enjoy the new list and keep crushing your opponents.
I updated the primer and the boarding guide to reflect the changes I made in the most current build.
The BUG lists in DC ran 3 sideboard golgari charm and 2 main board tombstalker to deal with true name nemisis. You could easily do the same thing.
Thanks for your input but Tombstalker is not castable for our deck :) With access to REBs we perhaps just need 2 Charms as REBS are great for our combo matchup. BUG does not have REBS due to obvious reasons.
I'm willing to give it a go. The meta is shifting to become more midrange with True-Nemesis. Though its not the same deck, Ben Friedman and Owen Turtenwald had great finishes with UWR Delver and opted for more spell pierces over stifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
I agree fully on the 3 redblast, 2 charms plan right now, 1 pc engineer plague might be the best tech, so that's worth considering. In my Stoneblade, I have started to run an old tech of 1 pc Llawan Cephalid Princess in the sb.
If TNN is a big concern, then perhaps 1 or main deck discard is worthy tech to explore. They could replace spell snare if you feel that snare is no longer good.
Snare only handles Goyfs and Stoneforges now as the decks to beat concentrate on the cc3 cost now. That is why my most recent list is a good reaction to the meta shift. I think you can debate whether you want the third Goyf over the Dismember or not but otherwise the new bUrg list is really really strong :-)
I don't agree with getting ride of Snares, even with True-Name nemesis. I've been running Snare and Pierce together. Dropping snare is assuming batterskull and rest in peace aren't problems just beause Nemesis is a thing. As well, I feel it is important to run 4 deathrite shaman now more than ever to circumvent Nemesis's infinite blocking ability. Deathrite is already a lightning rod, but he also helps incredibly in the tempo mirror (you won't have to waste a slot on an extra land.) I don't think 2 Tarmogoyfs are necessary. I've been playing BURG goyfless for quite some time, and it has been functioning incredibly well. I also feel having 7 fetchlands makes the deck less consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
Here is my list for now:
Maindeck: 60
Creatures:12
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
Spells:30
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
2 Fire Covenant
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancient grudge
1 Life from the Loam
I'm contemplating dropping a goose for my own nemesis, but I haven't had an opportunity to test it yet. I've also been alternating between badlands and Taiga for the reasons stated earlier in the thread. I was running a troll aescetic for a while, but dropped him in favor of another golgari charm. As well, running 4 deathrites warrants the need for utilizing them as threats.
I'm with King Slayer on this one really don't agree on dropping Spell Snare, maybe dropping to 2, copies maybe but its so good. Maybe my meta is not as sensitive. Regarding the 3 drop slot, meaning TNN, we have really good answers in our board.
I think 2 Nemesis belong in the 75 along with 2 discard spells
You can run 2 Snares instead of Dismember and Izzet. I think 3 is too much, especially if you cut Dazes to 3 like Kingslayer ;-).
Running Goyf-less is really a problem in the tempo mirror. But you save the slot of running an extra land in the SB. I will think about it ;-).
Running our own TNN has too much anti-synergy with Charms. We must see if we can handle TNN reliably. If no, we must play our own ones. You know, if you cannot beat them, just join them ;-)
With 4 Shaman you will automatically shrink your Mongeese if you happen to play versus aggro decks like Goblins as they are light on spells. You will need to eat the cards of your own grave.
But KingSlayer brought an idea up..I will test that. Hold on :-)
I hardly ever deploy more than one deathrite at a time. They usually get killed pretty quickly anyway, or I shuffle them away as I would a land.Also, their disynergy with goose very rarely arises, even with four. However, as Dark Confidant once said, "Greatness at any cost."Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
Thanks to your feedback. I have updated the list.
Deck: Sasan's new bUrg.dec
Maindeck: 60
Creatures:12
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
1 True-Name Nemesis
Spells:30
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:15
3 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
1 Fire Covenant
2 Golgari Charm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique
I always felt that 4 Shamans is worth a try and have always had lists with 4 Shamans. But I never followed that route as our Mongeese become weaker with 4 Shamans. This and our only 2 black sources were the reasons. But with Nemesis our Mongeese already became weaker - I already stated that 3 is the right number now. Shaman became more imporant due to the ping abillity. With that in mind we can now run 4 Shamans. We must therefore run a fetchland more to support more black sources. That is totally fine as it helps our 3 Mongeese to reach Thresh faster and makes up a bit for the anti-synergy with Shamans. Now with 4 Shamans we can now afford some more UU spells.
That leads to the comeback of Counterspell. Yes we had that card in our very first bUrg built but felt it was too clunky. Now we can come back to that tech. Counterspells counters Nemesis. That is huuuge. Counterspell is the perfect card that can handle everything Snare and Pierce handle. That is why we can now run a split of 2 Snares, 1 Pierce and 1 Counterspell. So we have 3 Snare effects and 2 Pierce effects. That is flexible as hell and gives us more main deck answers to Nemesis.
With the possibilty to run ab it more UU spells now Nemesis becomes a real thing for our deck. With the Shaman ramp and our more stable mana base we can now play with our own one-off Nemesis that acts as Mongoose 4 - so the shroud count is the same versus Decay decks.
We now have 9 creatures with evasion from Nemesis plus more main deck answers to the nasty Merfolk. Our deck does not become that much slower without the 2 Goyfs as the ping ability of Shaman plus Mongoose/Nemesis makes 5 damage a turn. Goyf was needed as a two-off as a late game bomg to bring through the last 4-5 points of damage. As Nemesis can chump block Goyf forever that strategy is not so viable anymore. With + 1 Shaman + 1 Nemesis - 2 Goyf we can certainly make our last points of damage far more reliably in the current meta game.
With 4 Shamans we now can get rid of the Tropical Island in the sideboard and play Clique. Turn 1 Shaman into turn 2 Clique is great versus combo. Clique has flying and can grab a Nemesis of the opponent's hand.
Now the pieces chain perfectly together.
Note on the anti-synergy between our own Charms and our one-off Nemesis: That is not a problem. If we are ahead in the damage race with our Nemesis we do not cast the Charm. If we are behind we can cast it.
As we have still a really flat mana curve and much much evasion and anwers for Nemesis I think that we will have a good matchup versus Nemesis decks and are better positioned in the new meta than RUG Delver.
Thanks for Tormod and TheKingSlayer for helping me update my list. The primer and sideboard guide is now up to date with the above list.
Didn't you hit on me a few weeks before when I suggested 4 DRS to make TNN maindeckable?!? ;D
You were right. Simple as that :)
The half-finale match of the GP DC where 2 Nemesis fought 1 Nemesis opened my eyes.
I think if were going to play TNN we should play more than 1. Its a good card no doubt, but the 1 off seems loose. I think the counter spell is better as another pierce or TNN. We have force of will and daze to deal with True name, and we could pitch truename to FoW in a pinch.
the other idea is to run 2 goose and 2 true name. This would make threshold less important to the deck which sometimes it struggles with and give use the option to run a jitte in the side with 10-11 creatures being able to carry equipment and 8 cantrips to smooth it out.
Due to some issues IRL, had to let go of the deck. :frown: Most of the pieces actually. Sucks but the Seas and DRS were easiest to let go. Will continue to playtest online though. More power! Will be building this again once I have the cash. :laugh:
Jitte is by far too mana intense to have a spot in a deck build on Wasteland, Stifle and Daze.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormod
This deck could easily run 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 2-3 TNN on the back of Gitaxian Probe to thin the deck out (Virtual more creatures and lands in the deck) and gain Perfect information about when to make the 1UU Investment wisely, etc.
Just an idea