Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
I'm still waiting for the design space teased with Chains of Mephistopheles and Notion Thief to be fully tapped into. That beyond the simple can't be countered/protection from blue there are more creative and color specific ways of hating on blue (or other colors really). Cards that weaken the enemies color's strengths, and force them to fight their game. Thalia does a really good job at this. She's a weenie, and punishes anybody else not also playing weenies, and turns the game into one that's advantageous to white.
I feel like red and green have the most untapped potential as they have the largest gaps in design space. And it seems totally natural to have these colors, who know they will outright lose to blue control, develop can't be countered stuff, but also develop weapons to force blue to play a red/green game, where blue can't properly compete.
That's why Notion Thief bothered me so much, a perfect example of a car that punishes blue's mains strength, and they print it in blue.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PirateKing
I'm still waiting for the design space teased with
Chains of Mephistopheles and
Notion Thief to be fully tapped into. That beyond the simple can't be countered/protection from blue there are more creative and color specific ways of hating on blue (or other colors really). Cards that weaken the enemies color's strengths, and force them to fight their game.
Thalia does a really good job at this. She's a weenie, and punishes anybody else not also playing weenies, and turns the game into one that's advantageous to white.
I feel like red and green have the most untapped potential as they have the largest gaps in design space. And it seems totally natural to have these colors, who know they will outright lose to blue control, develop can't be countered stuff, but also develop weapons to force blue to play a red/green game, where blue can't properly compete.
That's why Notion Thief bothered me so much, a perfect example of a car that punishes blue's mains strength, and they print it in blue.
Traditionally, blue always had the better answer to itself or the answers in better colors were best in blue decks. Mental Misstep and REB/Pyroblast come into mind. That's why symmetric effects like Thalia is so important here.
Problem is that green's hatebears suck - see Tajuru Preserver or Melira, Sylvok Outcast (who is more of a combo piece than anything). Red hatebears would have potential if they dished out damage for non-trivial things - like Ash Zealot, except less narrow. Not the current "Opponent bends you over to violate you? Better ping him for 1!" or "When all stars align, bolt them to the face" - crap. It would also give them a nice way to make distinguish red from black. E.g. a Pyrostatic Pillar with a combat-relevant body would be sweet. All colors should have the tools to combat combo decks in their own way - just that certain colors are better at it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
Protection from Colours is whites thing. Protection from other things is Blues. TNN fits into the colour assigned to it, even if it feels like it should not.
Except that "Blue has protection from non-color things" is an argument Maro pulled out of his ass, considering white has six times as many cards in that category. That's like arguing that they could print a blue Duress since Piracy Charm and Vendillion Clique are blue hand disruption. Or printing a blue Bolt because direct damage was always a blue thing, considering cards like Psionic Blast and Tim. Or a blue StP because Pongify is a thing.
TNN should have never been printed in blue and has only been made to cater the blue crowd.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
SCG Dallas was yesterday and first place was playing U/W stoneblade with 3 true name nemesis. There were 8 total true name nemesis's(nemesi?) in the top 8 but considering over half the top 8 was blue aggro control and that the word isn't completely out yet about how good true name nemesis is I think this is alarming. I actually lost to the guy who ended up 1st in swiss who was playing U/W stoneblade. I was playing welder MUD. Once he landed one true name nemesis I couldn't attack, couldn't block and he jitted it next turn. He was also able to beat a turn 4 blightsteel colossus once he dropped the second one. This card should have had a triggered ability, been legendary or cost more. As it stands this card carried him the entire match. Nothing else he did really mattered that much. Because of this fact, I disagree with anyone who says this card isn't format warping. It makes almost every deck outside combo better by running it and a reanimator player was thinking of boarding it as an alternate win condition/blocker. This card needs a banhammer in the back ASAP.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Doesnt Blightsteel just trample over Nemesis?
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
@Blacklotus3636
Hype??? lol
@Dsck
No, he doesn't, protection from everything. Same for dmg of the Colossus;)
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
The ultra unfair decks don't care about this guy. All it does is make the fair vs. fair matchup better for the TNN player.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Except that "Blue has protection from non-color things" is an argument Maro pulled out of his ass, considering white has
six times as many cards in that category. That's like arguing that they could print a blue Duress since
Piracy Charm and Vendillion Clique are blue hand disruption. Or printing a blue Bolt because direct damage was always a blue thing, considering cards like
Psionic Blast and Tim. Or a blue StP because
Pongify is a thing.
TNN should have never been printed in blue and has only been made to cater the blue crowd.
I agree, I feel like this card should have been white or just not printed. I also feel like Blue has enough love so I would have liked to see it elsewhere. But if I was king lots of things would change. The one I would start with would be to start testing cards in a legacy environment before they see print.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blacklotus3636
been legendary
My one gripe with Commander. The cards that feel legendary can no longer be printed as such due to them being broken ass Commanders.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
Protection from Colours is whites thing. Protection from other things is Blues. TNN fits into the colour assigned to it, even if it feels like it should not.
With protection Wizards has always played fast and lose with their own rules anyway. Take Piledriver for exam.
Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.
I would buy that as an argument for True-Name Nemesis's ability only worked in multiplayer. The problem is that functionally speaking, in a 2-player game, True-Name Nemesis has protection from everything (actually, it's even better than that, but let's go with "protection from everything" for simplicity). Protection from everything is an ability that is certainly not Blue. Though it isn't White either, "protection from everything" is really something that requires the combined might of all 5 colors, as shown in Progenitus.
That's the issue. Functionally speaking, this isn't protection from something other than a color. In a 2-player game, it's functionally protection from everything... but even better!
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Yes, blightsteel does trample over. Here's what happens:
Him: land go
Me: land go
Him: land brainstorm
Me: Metalworker go
Him: true name go
Me: kuldotha forgemaster go
Him: play and equip jitte swing. I go to 17 go
Me: I play trinisphere and pass
Him: swing with jitted true name remove 2 counters. I go to 12. He reequips to the other untapped true name and passes. I blightsteel end step.
Me: swing with blue steel he takes 8 poison. 3 counters on jitte.
Him: swing for 12 next turn
@pdingo
Play against it for a while and you may come around. 3 of the top 8 decks packed true name. This will only climb over time. Within 3 months this card will be in 1 quarter to 1 half of every top 8.
@arsenal
I actually agree with you but it means true name nemesis decks vs. combo will be the format. Thats the definition of format warping. Feel free to disagree but a card that has protection from everything and can be targeted by you for 3 thats a non-legendary 3/1 is definitely one of if not the best creature in the format. I think every blue deck will eventually be forced to play it.
I know its hard for a lot of people to believe right now but give it a few months and we'll let the numbers of true name nemesis in top 8 speak for themselves.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
As a side note, could someone please change the topic title to True-Name Nemesis?
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dsck
Doesnt Blightsteel just trample over Nemesis?
I'm pretty sure you can assign any damage above the 1 toughness to the defending player. If he had an active jitte, subtract 4 from the damage.
Blacklotus3636, would you have been happier if he would've used the 3 mana to cast show and tell, and then proceed to draw 14 cards? It's a 3/1. I'm sorry your deck can't get rid of it, but that doesn't mean it deserves to be banned.
I'm sorry, do zealous persecution, toxic deluge, golgari charm, and engineered plague not all completely answer this guy?
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
I'm sorry, do zealous persecution, toxic deluge, golgari charm, and engineered plague not all completely answer this guy?
Less so in a Merfolk deck with lords aplenty, but playing Reanimator, my game plan is still going to be primarily Griselbrand to race and win, maybe Elesh Norn to wipe out their TNN, or maybe Iona to cut them off it completely.
I expect Golgari Charm to see the most play, based simply on colors already being run, with Zealous Persecution as a close second. Decks that already run Massacre will continue to run it, especially if UW stoneblade is the TNN deck.
It'd be nice if simple board wipes got played again, though I know that's a dream.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
I'm pretty sure you can assign any damage above the 1 toughness to the defending player. If he had an active jitte, subtract 4 from the damage.
Blacklotus3636, would you have been happier if he would've used the 3 mana to cast show and tell, and then proceed to draw 14 cards? It's a 3/1. I'm sorry your deck can't get rid of it, but that doesn't mean it deserves to be banned.
I'm sorry, do zealous persecution, toxic deluge, golgari charm, and engineered plague not all completely answer this guy?
Its not just 'my deck' that has a problem. I play many decks and unless you're combo you usually can't stop it because there are only a handful of cards in the format that kill it. All the cards you mentioned are also board cards at best. I really wish people would try to play against this card instead of just talking about how its not that strong. You don't ban a card because a cry baby says he can't deal with a card which is what you are accusing me of. You ban a card when it becomes the card you either play with or against in a format. Its only been legal for 10 days in 2 tournaments with 300 people and already in 3 of the 8 in top 8 and 2 of the top 8 in another. That should alarm anyone.
Griselbrand is definitely up there on the power curve. He's better than emrakul which is pretty scary considering what emrakul does. However, griselbrand is not top 8ing in large numbers even though he is widely played. This is the critical point to me. As I said, give it a few months or about 10 tournaments. If he's in 1 quarter to 1 half of the top 8's on average then you have compelling evidence for a ban. I'm going a step farther and saying it will happen but it needs time.
Re: [SCD] True-Name Nemesis
Whether or not TNN is op, people should stop calling for the banhammer before the meta has rebalanced.
Re: [SCD] True-Name Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Humphrey
Whether or not TNN is op, people should stop calling for the banhammer before the meta has rebalanced.
BUT OMG, It's not like we have people here calling for bans all the time. I mean they're usually right though, the format never corrects itself. 10 copies of TNN in top 8 = instapermaban obviously. /sarcasm
Seriously guys, if you care calling for a ban after one good event go play Standard.
Re: [SCD] True-Name Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dontbiteitholmes
Seriously guys, if you care calling for a ban after one good event go play Modern.
ftfy
Re: [SCD] True-Name Nemesis
As far as color pie discussion, just to recap the past few years ...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shawn
Alarm bells were going off in my head when the best creatures from INN were blue, cheaply costed, and some had hexproof: Delver, Snapcaster, Geist of Saint Traft, Invisible Stalker. Hexproof is such a horrible mechanic.
*Zac Hill: "I'll be real with you. We messed up with Snapcaster Mage."
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...ily%2Fld%2F191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bruticus
This would totally fit in red, why does it have to be blue? There are other colors in this game, right?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
SCM should have been red. Delver should have been black. ... R&D needs to be printing consistent blue hosers every set, starting with Choke and Scald, then moving to Boil and Tsunami.
*Mark Rosewater:
"If I had made Snapcaster Mage from scratch, I would have made it a red card. Why is it blue? For one, I didn’t make it, it was designed by Tiago Chan, winner of the last Magic Invitational. Tiago made it blue and we tried to keep the card to his vision. I do wish I has asked him about changing it to red to see if the idea interested him."
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...er-mage-red-or
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
A flying Nacatl that can be pitched to FoW and doesn't require a 3 color investment? It's leaps and bounds better than Nacatl, which until recently was the strongest one drop in the history of Magic. In blue. There are more Delvers in winning lists than there are Snapcasters since Innistrad's release. Delver is at least as responsible for Blue's recent surge as Snapcaster is.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amon Amarth
Anyways, fuck Blue flying Wild Nacatls. Where is my RR for my 4/4 haste, trample guy? Maybe they'll print him later.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
It's completely out of the color pie to give Blue a hyper aggressive creature that now allows Blue tempo decks to out-aggro Aggro decks.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
PirateKing
That's why Notion Thief bothered me so much, a perfect example of a car that punishes blue's mains strength, and they print it in blue.
*
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Except that "Blue has protection from non-color things" is an argument Maro pulled out of his ass, considering white has
six times as many cards in that category. That's like arguing that they could print a blue Duress since
Piracy Charm and Vendillion Clique are blue hand disruption. Or printing a blue Bolt because direct damage was always a blue thing, considering cards like
Psionic Blast and Tim. Or a blue StP because
Pongify is a thing. TNN should have never been printed in blue and has only been made to cater the blue crowd.
Re: [SCD] True-Name Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon Amarth
Anyways, fuck Blue flying Wild Nacatls. Where is my RR for my 4/4 haste, trample guy? Maybe they'll print him later.
If blue can have aggro creatures, why not give red some better stack manipulation?
How about a color-shifted Misdirection? It certainly fits in red's slice of the color pie. Or an alterantive-cost Fork that also hits triggered abilities to give red options against storm combo? Heck, a red Commandeer could be interesting.
Re: [SCD] True-Name Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dontbiteitholmes
Seriously guys, if you care calling for a ban after one good event go play Standard.
Huh?
Standard bans are extremely rare and people generally don't ever ask for them. I don't get this.
Not to mention the fact that when cards are banned in Standard, it's after they've been shown to be abusive over a reasonable period of time. Sure, there was the Urza's block, but that's... the Urza's block.
Re: [SCD] True-Name Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dontbiteitholmes
BUT OMG, It's not like we have people here calling for bans all the time. I mean they're usually right though, the format never corrects itself. 10 copies of TNN in top 8 = instapermaban obviously. /sarcasm
Seriously guys, if you care calling for a ban after one good event go play Standard.
I don't appreciate the attitude but the substance is on the mark. I admit as most fair minded people would that there is insufficient evidence at this point to propose a banning. However, I have to say that waiting to make a decision on whether a card is busted after 2-3months is kind of like being captain hindsight. Sure skullclamp looks busted after you see it take half of the top8's for 3 months straight but making the call before hand is more difficult and fun. History suggests that almost all cards proposed for banning don't get banned because the format changes to handle them. It just depends on whether those changes lead to format warping. In this way both sides are really saying the same thing just in different degrees.
I think the one thing we can all agree on though is that this card is definitely one of the best creatures in the format. I was curious what everyone thought about true name nemesis vs. geist and clique for spots. I was talking to someone about it being different tools for different jobs but I was curious if anyone thinks true name nemesis will replace those guys wholesale.
