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Nic Fit isn't good in my experience, since they have Deed, better bombs and our mana disruption doesn't work well.
Can't comment on Jund, since it's basically non-existant on MODO.
MUD is so-so. If they get broken hands, you lose, if you can manascrew them before they get anything meaningful going, you win.
I have faced all of the above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Nic Fit is even to slightly unfavorable, vet ex ramps both you and them. It comes down to who can drop a bomb first and whether the other person can deal with it.
Jund is not that great either. DRS, Decay, and Lili are all pretty decent against us.
MUD is probably the closest of these matchups.
If you want to beat Jund and Nic Fit, try playing a NO Package instead of the chokes and a higher creature count, perhaps goyfs as well. Library manipulation isn't as important with a Natural Order plan, but you do weaken your countermagic/discard matchups.
This is why I ask about it out of the board - I've often played UGx midrange-control decks with NO in the board as a trump card against non-blue fair matchups (e.g., Bant vs. Maverick), and it's been a great way to pivot gameplans for not-too-many slots.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
What would you realistically want to run as NO target to make the Jund match-up better? Sigarda? You don't need NO for that, GSZ would also work. Progenitus is kinda iffy if they have Liliana (on the following turn).
Worldspine Wurm would be a good NO target against Jund, I'd think.
Although Sigarda is perhaps the best anti-Jund card there is.
Yeah either Worldspine, or Terrastodon.
So with the SCG Invitational coming to my city this weekend (Richmond) and me being super disappointed to find out my invite expired for the invitational I decided to test for the legacy premier IQ, last night I went back to Sylvan Plug with this list.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/275221#online
I like the leylines in the board and I actually think I will try as a 4 of next time, also I think it might be time to go back to 4 baloths to help beat any deck that plays Lilianas and hymns.
I quickly went back to 4 Leylines after testing 3 copies as Lejay suggested. It just didn't feel right to run only 3 for the match-ups where you really wanted it.
Lejay made some interesting changes in his newest list
Ghost Quarters, cutting Baloths for a more Mox-heavy build with Coursers and Ghost Quarters, plus Wirewood Symbiote to bounce Sages. Cutting Abrupt Decay seems kinda weird, though.
Edit: Just asking: How does Winter Orb interact with Choke?
It was a first draft. I didn't work much on it the week after because I had to lend cards but I certainly liked it. Current version isn't finished which is why I didn't post about it but here is some more current iteration :
// NAME : [T1.5] Sylvan Plug evolution
// CREATOR : LeJay (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT :
1 Ancient Tomb (currently testing city as it gets better with 4 mox and a low curve. The singleton sol land keeps the turn one 2 mana options count at 5 and is also tutorable with knight)
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Savannah
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Choke
4 Sylvan Library
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Wirewood Symbiote / Arena / anything, kind of the freest slot
SB: 1 Turntimber Basilisk
SB: 1 Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 Spike Weaver
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Kalonian Hydra
SB: 1 Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
The initial idea was purposedly to find a way to remove the abrupt decays. I always said they didn't feel at their home in this deck and that it was a necessary evil given the prevalence of delver and UR delver in particular. With a much different metagame without treasure cruise, it was time to work on that to see if it was possible.
The first thing I thought about (other than obvious deluges) was running the full playset of coursers to race non blockable creatures gaining life forever until you can deluge them or kill the opponent. It worked even better than I thought, mainly because by running only 0-1 ancient tomb you save a lot of life. 4 Courser 3 knights also means having a ground blocker one turn earlier very often. I had a baloth / Siege-rhino slot at first but seeing how much it was unnecessary in this version I put the third knight instead. It's not totally out of the equation to run 3 baloths sideboard though, mainly for discard match-ups.
Knight has additionnal synergy with multiple coursers, it's even better now. Maze of ith is weak overall since TNN but in a deck with no spot removal, mox diamonds, and ways to tutor for it it goes up in value.
Ghost quarter are still awesome and it works better with courser than rolling spoil obviously.
Having 4 mox diamonds means you will very often land turn 1 library, and having another very strong turn 1 play other than chalice is another reason why this deck is more stable than other chalice decks.
We were worried about running more mox diamonds because of the card disadvantage. The playset of courser is also there to help with that.
Titania could possibly be the 4th knight, but I like being less weak to Ooze/DRS/any non leyline non rip gravehate and having a late game option on GSZ.
Crucible isn't totally out of the deck. It's just that it's a bit slow in the modern legacy metagame, adds weakness to grave hate, and helps mostly in good match-ups. It could come back in sideboard. It could even be played cutting in chokes as this deck seems now even strong enough without them. I still think it's a losing proposition overall unless your meta is non blue and you have nothing else to play.
Deluge was obvious as soon as you remove decays. It removes the small creatures you can't block with knight of the reliquary.
In the sideboard I had to find some kind of 187 creature to compensate the absence of spot removals and turntimber basilisk is by far the best option I could find. Stingerfling could come back, but it would be in addition to it I think.
Hydra and spike are still best friends but it is possible to play without them I think. They still work great so far but having more maze of ith sb or dawnstrider + something else are options.
Symbot and arena are other choices that capitalize their strenght on the absence of spot removals. Arena hasn't been tested yet and symbiot just never went into action yet.
I don't like putting four leylines, as I faced grave decks numerous times with this configuration and have yet to lose to one of them. It's very possible I was lucky though.
I also really like that 3 knight and main deck karakas helps immensely against the one deck my previous build was weak to : sneak show.
Since the beginning I couldn't push the land count over 25, but it's possible more is right.
To summarize it's good and there is still work, so I advise everybody to playtest it.
Nice to see, that the deck is still played by some players (and also lejay himself!). Overall some adjustments after the tc-ban seems totally fine. The format still has more than enough blue based decks and with Miracle + Omnitell the "Green-Stompy-Shell" retains two favored top decks in the current meta.
Elves and D&T are both back at "DtB" and iam unsure if the cut off Decay is the right direction (because Choke offers no help here too).
My personal adjustments to lejays current testbuild would be:
-1 Savannah
+1 Scrubland (colorfix)
-1 Courser of Kruphix (nice one with lands, library etc - but still only a attacker with 2 power...)
+1 Siege Rhino (still like this one and after the TC-Ban we see more TNN and Tasigur! If you don't like the rhino i would vote for Garruk Relentless as a "removal" and "Wolfblossom" which will be great against Miracle and potentially tutor which also works around Grafdigger's Cage)
-1 Choke (useless against non blue and in the majority)
+1 Crucible of Worlds (hey 4 Moxes + more Wastelands after the UR era)
-1 Ghost Quarter (maybe one more at Side, Crucible still improves Matchups with 4 Wastelands + 1 Ghost Quarter)
+1 Tower of the Magistrate (D&T and the cut off Decay - so one more out against Equipment Game 1)
-1 Dryad Arbor (one is fine with Zenith, but with Toxic Deluge and the "non haste" issue with Arbor, it don't see big improvements in the majority)
+1 Horizon Canopy (colorfix + drawengine with Crucible, work also with Titania/Knight)
-1 Sylvan Library (i never liked more than 3 and made small adjustments - see above - to justify the cut off)
+1 Scavenging Ooze (still a good creature in deck with enough mana and zenith-toolbox, improves some matchups and can be another beater - especially after a nice Toxic-Blowout!)
I will definitively made some online games with the list and compare it with my old Gbw Build (without mox, but with 4 tombs + decays). The Question is, will a higher Mox+Landcount outweigh the lack of decay and other stuff? Without aggressiv TC-driven UR Delver decks the selfdamage from Tomb seems manageable.
I've talked a bit with Lejay about it yesterday, so my thoughts about it:
- I don't like the absence of AD. It was a stroke of genius to add to the initially monogreen Stompy shell, since it can answer quite a few problematic cards. Being able to remove stuff against a blue counterwall was always a strenght of the deck in my opinion. And Delver is far from gone, it's just a different iteration now. AD also trivializes opposing Lilianas.
- I hated running 4 Moxen in my playtesting. Too many dead draws and I miss the accel of Ancient Tomb which makes the Mox version worse against Spell Pierce and Daze.
- Courser as only source of lifegain is slow, I missed the Baloths.
- As awesome as KotR is, I'm not a fan of relying so heavily on KotR as threat due to the white count required. That's why I like Baloth, since it adds a green threat that doesn't rely on the GY.
As for the sideboard:
- Weaver is fine, Hydra is the thing I question the most. Sigarda is probably the most likely candidate as non-GY-dependent threat. Only downside is the double white when you naturally draw it.
- Turntimber Basilisk? Wouldn't be easier to run actual spot removal instead of weird GSZ targets?
- Arena in a more KotR-centered build is an interesting idea, might be cool
Edit: To address MD.Ghost: From my playtesting, D&T is positive, especially after boarding if you bring in a third Deluge + 2 Massacre + Tower. They can handle only so many sweepers, since we aren't Miracles to durdle around and allow them to recover. Sweepers are key, but AD is certainly nice to have.
For those who run 4 Leylines in their board, I'm still interested in testing of the Leyline + Helm of Obedience kill since Helm can also be a suprise middle finger against decks bringing RiP in against us.
Turntimber is awesome, but howabout Glissa, the Traitor. She fends of opposing Tarmos quite nicely and there is a small synergy with rebuying fallen chalices/moxen/trinispheres.
I see what you are trying to do. But I don't think you saw the deck is already pushing it a lot on colorless lands, seems very bad to remove a green source since you play 4 coursers and want to be able to GSZ for dryad turn 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
Pushing the synergy with courser+library is what allows the cut of decays. If you want to run rhino please cut something else, but honestly I don't think it is needed. It would be nice for TNN but I don't think this version is weak to it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
I am still on the same credo that if you choose to play this deck it's because your metagame is very blue. The standard list should have four, but that doesn't prevent people to adapt if they have no other choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
It's either 2 or 3 ghost quarter, the card is too good. It's even close to being better than wasteland in the deck. Tower is a sideboard card, and while I wouldn't be against having it main deck to gain a sideboard slot, it would be one colorless too many.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
With 4 mox diamonds dryad in hand will almost never be a liability, and I always want to be able to GSZ for it. It also works great with Titania and people get caught off guard when they think you only run one and that it is in the yard (attack with pyromancer, liliana etc...).Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
Ooze would certainly be a better main deck card now with less sol lands, but turn 1 library is too good and happens quite often if you run 4 mox 4 lib.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
If you just have a blue counterwall to beat you more likely need to resolve a threat or prison piece before they are online and having answers in hand will be horrible. I understand you talk about delver + three counters situations, but the other situation also happens a lot, and I'd say more often than the latter now. I'd rather run decays or mazes or anything else sideboard right now. But it certainly is an option to remove sol lands + baloths while keeping decays. I couldn't find the slots and wasn't convinced enough though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Not only you are more likely to turn 1 library, skipping the taxing effects, but you also filter more with a courser in play with fetches, knight, GSZ and even ghost quarter. You also have a smaller curve. I argued myself right from the start against running too many mox diamonds, but all these changes make running the playset worthwhile. I used to sideboard out the two mox diams in previous builds against the slower grinder decks. Now I only sb out one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Like I said not running tombs saves you a lot of life and courser blocks one turn earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Without spot removal I need something that dominates the board. Baloth doesn't do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I would if they were tutorable or if I had easy room for them. They are also not that much needed at first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
It was a consideration. I don't believe much in the rebuy synergy. You can't force people to block it so it doesn't do much more than what knight of the reliquary does. And Knight does a lot more. Glissa is also vulnerable to all removals. Turntimber is too, but the basilisk just gives the opponent one turn. And if he doesn't attack he might lose two creatures to a fetch or whatever double landfall configuration. It's still a possibility because knight is weak to DRS + tarmogoyf situations and the karakas issue isn't one with 6 strip mines.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
The new list is very intriguing Lejay, I would be concerned with the bug matchup especially with out baloths to make them fear using lilliana and when everything now dies to abrupt decay in the maindeck (outside of Titiana). However you have not yet lead me astray so I am thinking of running this at the Richmond SCG premier IQ and seeing if I can break top 8. I finished just outside of the DC premier IQ's top 8.
I would also be worried about bug. If it is the dominant deck where you'll play and can play something that beats it switch deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibalt
I haven't tested the deck since my last post and probably won't much in the month coming because I'll test several new formats for me. So don't wait for me to deliver a final list and don't be afraid to try out things i proposed or didn't.
Why not just bring the old version with Baloths and AD which both shine in said match-up?
If his meta is very blue an dominated by BUG Delver it may be the best choice.
I played this list last week at my local shop, went 3-0 then ID'd the last round. Beat Esper Deathblade, GRUB Delver, and Burning ANT.
//Creatures
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
//Instants
2 Abrupt Decay
//Sorceries
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Toxic Deluge
//Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
1 Crucible of Worlds
//Enchantments
3 Choke
3 Sylvan Library
//Lands
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Forest
//Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Massacre
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Choke
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Obviously some card choices are suboptimal because I threw it together at the last minute and didn't have everything I wanted. I'm picking up more coursers to try the heavy courser route and moving baloths to the board for the liliana matchup (if I keep them at all), and I'm gonna find room for that fourth library, but my real question was about Tabernacle.
I boarded it in constantly. I played a few games for fun against Maverick and ended up with him on 0 lands but two enormous Knights and it took me a solid 10 turns to find a way to answer them and get through for the win. I repeatedly wanted a way to punish my opponents for resolving spells before I decimated their mana. Is it possible Tabernacle is maindeckable in this deck?
The other question I had was whether the maindeck sage was really that important. I drew it constantly and never really needed it. I did manage to kill a batterskull with it once but the batterskull wasn't posing a huge problem for my Knights anyway. I like maindeck Sage in Elves because you need to answer game 1 counterbalances and moats and jittes, but what do we have to answer game 1 that is worth running another dead card? I played it as a 3 mana 2/1 because I needed to attack or block more often than I played it to kill something.
Editing another question in here: Does Maze of Ith have any place in the Knight heavy build?
I'm testing something a bit different, trying to maximize Mox boost with more cc2. I think that black is really need only against Nemesis, while decay is a good catch-all but doesn't give any advantage. With the rise (Again) of BUg deck, i really want P.Fire in the deck, so this is what i'm trying:
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wasteland
4 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Choke
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Savannah
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Mox Diamond
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Dust Bowl
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Windswept Heath
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 4 Crop Rotation
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
(it's from cockatrice, sorry for the mess). If Thalia will work well with the deck i think she could be a great addition.
this seems like a punishing maverick deck. Thalia doesn't really work well with punishing fire, green sun or loam. Against decks you would need thalia you wouldn't need the others necessarily but it just seems clunky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Memories of the Time
it would be nice if you had results to post with the list too, at least some cockatrice testing.
Also, the lists here have started running an increasing number of KOTR which would really benefit from the inclusion of 1 dark depths and 1 thespians stage. If you find yourself with an untapped KOTR you can simply search EOT then again on your turn to establish the combo. This works really nicely since you already have chalice on 1 to protect against stp, and repeal.