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Looks liek a decent list, but 4 needles is seriously way overkill. I'd drop 2, and add a crypt. When you have trinket mage, they function as needles 3, 4, and 5 if you're running 2 MD after sideboarding. I'd even put one in the MD. I tried without it, but went back to putting it in because if you miss a chalice dropped at 1, it answers a lot of problems.
Hey, guys...glad to see the deck is doing well. I have also gone up to eight equipment, by adding one Sword of Light and Shadow and cutting the two Blasts remaining in my build. The other slot let be bring Pithing Needle back into the maindeck...with an increasing amount of randomness I have changed my mind on it (yeah, I know Blasts help against randomness, but they hurt me against aggro. They never did enough to speed up my clock - burn to the head is good if its free, but I'd rather play more threats that were also useful when my opponent is at five or more life and could still kill them a turn later if not). I don't draw Light and Shadow too often, but it has been pretty nuts when I have, though defenetly inferior to SoF&I for obvious reasons. It's defenetly more passive than its counterpart, but its still a Sword. Additionally, FOF is back in...Morte's argument for playing good cards convinced me to try it out again and it's been working very well. Without the Thirsts and Blasts, and with pro-Reds in the board only for the Looters I'm testing in the main (never tested them with FOF, only Thirst, so I might change my mind), my deck is slower but far more consistant. Oh, I still run Shoreline too.
Congrats Yamaelle.
@jamest : thanks for the list, always curious to see some more. How useful is Quicksilver dragon? I know you only run one, but as a morph, it has no evasion, and is the ability ever relevant? I know some people (at least on mws) run it, but I never felt the need for a bigger creature like this.
I am surprised you cut the 4th mox, it is still a damn good card in opening hand. For the 20 lands, wow, that’s a lot! I believe you don’t get any mana deaths anymore, do you?
As for the SB, I know it is a meta choice, but as mikekelley said 4 Pithing Needles is really overkill. Furthermore with 4 Trinket mages. Powder kegs sound a nice idea, but against which decks would you SB it? I would really try to fit in the Orbs (3?), because the control MUs are the tough ones. If you have only a few spots left, maybe running 3 Misdirections would be the more useful. Though with all your lands, you wouldn’t have problems to play the Control Magic…
It’s true the W Thresh MU looks a lot less overfriendly than the R splash. I thank god no W Thresh player ever played me Serenity in a tournament. Is it a common SB card in those decks? Mystic Enforcer is a nice Control Magic target. :smile:
What would you think Goblin would metagame against Faerie stompy? I think they are also quite tight (as everyone is, when you come to think about it). Most have 4 REBs/Pyroblasts in SB (Solidarity answer). I assume they would use them against us, even if with chalices it is often useless. Same for Needle, I believe most play a couple, (handled by Chalices/Explosives). My biggest fear is Pyrokenesis, and really a lot of Gob players in France have it. If they ever feel the need to really metagame FS, the Guildpact replicate Spell for R destroying an artifact would be the most harmful I guess. The thing is I think they already have quite a few slots they use against us, and won’t devote before a long time half or 2/3 of their SB against us.
I shortly played 3 SOLS in SB, when I cut the Grasps (before replacing by the Control Magics). It is really nice in a few MUs. Is it though better than Jitte? On the other hand it is not legendary… but good luck to tutor it – at least legally!
I really don’t like Shoreline Ranger. I think Phantom summed it up a few pages back; yes,it always does something, but always “badly” as overcosted 3/4 flying or overcosted land.
Checking with a few friends and a French Legacy magic website, we figured the following Top 8 for the Worlds side event:
1) Agro/Confinement/Loam 2) Faerie stompy 3)Gob MonoR 4)43 Lands 5)Burn (!) 6)Faerie stompy 7) (still ?) 8) Burn (!!)
It might still not be 100% accurate, but I agree it already looks quite weird. If ever someone gets the official one, I‘d like to check it.
I've played against Goblins sideboarding Shattering Spree, 4 Disenchants, 4 Swords and some REBs. Such heavy sideboarding just makes their main strategy suck though. They need most of their Goblins to keep their deck rolling. At most I could see them bringing 6 cards from the SB, so no matter what they have, it isn't going to be very painful. The builds that bring 8+ though are rather vulnerable to Misdirection. I've protected my Chalice at 1 from Shattering Spree with Misdirection, for example. And StP suddenly becomes a perfect answer to their turn 1 Lackey if they try to StP your blocker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaelle
They can't really metagame against us more than they do already, few blasts and Shattering Sprees, or perhaps StPs is the worst-case scenario and quite frankly, it isn't that bad. The thing I'd fear the most are the Rg lists playing 4 MD Tin Street Hooligans; that card is fearsome against us and maindeckable to boot, and they have SB Krosan Grips. Truly metagamed build would probably be Rg build with 4 MD Tin Streets, one Tinkerer, and SB REBs and few Grips. Pyrokinesis, while decent, isn't all that frightening compared to e.g. REB as REB can counter pro-red dudes and kill Jitted creatures regardless of the counters.
49 Cents: Thanks for that. A very interesting Top 8 to be sure, no combo :/
Some reasons why the UU of control magic shouldn't matter:
You will reach 2UU before you reach 3U, and here's why:
You need at least 3 lands to reach 3U:
island
tomb
tomb
island
island
island
mox (or another island)
city
city
island
island
city
tomb
etc...
Unless we are going to have something like island island island island to get to four mana (which is the converted cost of both Control Magic and Binding Grasp) we are going to have 5, from two tombs and an island or mox. If you play it like this, you are taking mana burn, because you're tapping city-tomb-island for five mana when you only need 3U to play grasp.
Control Magic, on the other hand, can be played off
Island
Island
Tomb
Island
Mox
City
Tomb
Mox
Island
etc...
You need two blue sources, but like I said, the only way to get 3U for grasp without taking mana burn is with island, mox, and tomb or city. And at that point, you already have the UU for Control Magic.
So to sum it up:
You can only play binding grasp with either a mox, island, double land
OR
two double lands and an island, which will give you mana burn
HOWEVER,
If you have island-mox-double land,
you can play a Control Magic without issue, and not take mana burn.
Hope that made sense.
And to that end, cards with cost 1UU are going to suck ass in FS, but cards with 2UU will be okay because we can handle paying for that much better than we can something with 1UU.
But I'd still prefer cards that are just 2U, for obvious reasons, and I am not (as of now) considering running any other cards other than control magic that have a 2UU casting cost, and even that is up for debate as of right now. I haven't tested it, so time will tell. I just want to point out that the UU is not as bad as we think.
Since when does this deck care about mana burn? I take mana burn all the time playing it, and that's pre sideboarding. This deck was build to support one blue mana in its spells casting cost. If it can reliably support UU, then there are a whole slew of cards that need to be evaluated. The fact is, in its current build, we cannot be guaranteed UU with any regularity. If anyone wants to crunch the numbers and prove me wrong, go nuts.
Also, it really doesn't matter which one we cast. In my many matches with the deck, I've found that here's what happens about 90% of the time I cast Binding Grasp:
1) The counter or Disenchant the Grasp.
2) They kill the creature I Grasped.
3) I block with the creature quicly to trade with something else.
4) They lose thanks to the massive swing of me taking their Enforcer, Angel, Sea Drake (now in Serendib crushing 4/4 size!) etc without anything else of consequence really happening. Hell, this is why we run the card.
Note that in none of those scenarios does Control Magic play any better than Grasp (actually, grasp is far superior in #3 thanks to Werebears taking out Werebears and living). The only times Control is better is if you steal something crappy out of desperation, or steal something and they follow it up with an army. Then, the upkeep might really hurt you (the only matchup I can ever remember this happening in was vs. Affinity).
So basically, I think that Grasps upkeep is about as much of a con as Control Magics UU. When in doubt, I'll take a good spell I can always cast over a very good spell I can't.
That's not true, and here is an example, a real situation I lived with this deck:Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
Let's supose that you are on a clock against a madness deck, and you reach the fourth mana and steal a wild mongrel to opponent, you pass turn.
Opponent makes something and pass turn too...
We reach the decisive moment, the upkeep, then we have 2 options:
1.- If we pay it: Maybe we don't draw land and can't play nothing to recover
2.- If we don't pay it: We lose grasp, the creature we stealed and, why not say it, we have lost and entire turn to recover us a little and a card. (that's 3x1 XD)
Ok, here you have to realize than until we draw a land, in each turn we have the same situation, and we are on a clock.
That day I payed the upkeep, and just later, he naturalized my Grasp! Congrats, you win! XD
Since you didn't actually say what happened after you grabbed the Mongrel, I'm going to assume that it fell under this category:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
Yes, but in wich situation you need to steal opponents creatures? when they are better than yours... or him have more than you...
I'm not test yet control magic, but grasp upkeep its annoying. Its than simply that if you have only 4 mana, you will be paying the upkeep eternally and doing nothing more until you draw lands.
Dragon is just here to give the deck another threat.Quote:
How useful is Quicksilver dragon?
I sacrifice a little acceleration on turn 1 for more consistent land drops and fewer hands with multiple Moxes.Quote:
I am surprised you cut the 4th mox, it is still a damn good card in opening hand.
I run 4 Needles with 4 Mages because there are some key matchups where multiple Needles are needed and fast.Quote:
As for the SB, I know it is a meta choice, but as mikekelley said 4 Pithing Needles is really overkill. Furthermore with 4 Trinket mages.
I think maindeck Needle is fine. It's really a personal preference that I don't run it. And I could easily change my mind on that.Quote:
I'd even put one (Needle) in the MD. I tried without it, but went back to putting it in because if you miss a chalice dropped at 1, it answers a lot of problems.
Usually aggro control like Threshold and Fish.Quote:
Powder kegs sound a nice idea, but against which decks would you SB it?
I don't think Serenity is common, but in my opinion, it should be. It's certainly in my build.Quote:
I thank god no W Thresh player ever played me Serenity in a tournament. Is it a common SB card in those decks?
Since FS takes a while to fill its graveyard, your stolen Werebears will usually be 1/2 creatures with 1U upkeep. Less impressive.Quote:
(actually, grasp is far superior in #3 thanks to Werebears taking out Werebears and living).
Except I don't consider the spell, that double Ports me, to be good.Quote:
When in doubt, I'll take a good spell I can always cast over a very good spell I can't.
Yes he did, "That day I payed the upkeep, and just later, he naturalized my Grasp! Congrats, you win!"Quote:
Since you didn't actually say what happened after you grabbed the Mongrel ...
1) I noticed the absence of shuffle effects in the deck. Did anyone try reducing the number of Islands to insert some fetchlands ? If so, what are your conclusions ?
2) Did anyone try Academy Ruins as a one-of ? Recurring CotV, EE, equipment, etc. seems interesting. Of course, the lack of shuffle effects and draw in the deck make the probability of drawing Ruins pretty low.
3) Assuming you expected a meta with a lot of Goblins, what combination of pro-red faeries would you run maindeck ?
4) I'm not yet convinced to let go of Psionic Blasts in the maindeck (or SB), they sometimes help me a lot to finish off my opponent in a control match-up (e.g. Landstill, Scepter-Chant). Thoughts ?
Hi aTn.
1) You do have Trinket Mages as Shuffle effects. The fetchlands were tried by some, but it only gives a proven marginal thinning difference, and you are more often in manadeaths than manafull situations. Furthermore between Serendibs, Tombs, Forces of Will … (+psy blasts for you!), you hurt yourself quite enough to need some extra fetch damage. And why would you care for some shuffling effects?
2) Academy ruins are tempting to run. As you mention, there would be enough good targets. But it gives only colorless mana, and are non basic. You have no way to fetch for one in the deck, nor get it back from the graveyard. As a conclusion, it helps a lot in a few MUs (recurring Crypts vs Thresh), but you don’t have enough room both MD and SB to run it. Maybe if you had some nice artifacts creature, it would be worth changing the lists to include them.
3) I am also playing in a meta filled with Goblins. I used to play 3 Weatherseed MD, + 1 Weatherseed +1 Sea Sprite in SB. I recently tried cutting the control Magics in my SB, and added 2 more Sea Sprites. The MU often is reduced to who starts, and how fast you get a proRed. I believe after SB, you need at least 6 proRed.
4) I personally removed the blasts months ago (more or less for +1 Island, a 4th Trinket Mage, a 4th Jitte), and I really like it this way. I would say the removal we have is rather our speed to use our equipments. Force of Will seldom counts as removal. But the Control Magics can count. The deck hurts enough already. There are really very few times I regretted not playing them. And I never regretted drawing another Mages or Jitte.
The original version played Serendib Djinn (I wanted to play it in some deck so I built this deck originally, to be precise), and it ran fetches. As it stands, they make you more vulnerable to Stifles, Needles, etc. and lower the amount of coloured mana you draw (against many LD-strategies, being able to draw into more is crucial, as well as in the cases, you keep colourless hands).Quote:
Originally Posted by aTn
The problem is, they provide colourless mana, so you'd have to add more lands and still not help coloured mana sitiuation one bit to play them. Rather not.Quote:
Originally Posted by aTn
I like Sea Sprite against Lackey, but I like Weatherseed more and more now that as I've played with it, as it allows me to go race without equipment if I draw a creature-heavy hand. Chrome Mox-hands usually have a 2-mana land for a turn 1 3-drop anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by aTn
They finish control-decks and speed up your goldfish against combo, while killing key creatures against aggro (I've won games by Psionic Blasting Mother of Runes before she goes online).Quote:
Originally Posted by aTn
As I'm relatively new to the deck, when I read the lists on this thread, I tend to find which SB cards are useful in a specific match-up but I'm having trouble figuring out what is usually sided-out. For example, it is clear that in Yamaelle's list the Misdirections are sided-in versus BW-Confidant, but what cards are sided-out for them ? I'd probably side-out the 2 TfK and 1 Needle, but I might be wrong; for other match-ups I'd need the opinion of an experienced user to figure out the best choice. Anyhow, thanks in advance for your help and season's greetings :)
Yea, well, it depends. I usually side out Sword of Fire and Ice against Pikula as they play heavy mana denial, so getting them online is hard, not to mention secondary as you can generally win with beats only. I usually take out a pro-red critter too as they're just pro-red critters, nothing fabulous. Then Needle obviously, unless they play something you'd really need it for (generally, you can handle Shades, Scrolls, Jittes and Wastes without though). I also bring in few Binding Grasps since they're a creature-light deck, so denying them their critters is a nice plan, but what I take out varies a bit. Usually more pro-red dudes though. I don't like to take draw out since it offsets their discard-spells. A Chalice is a usual suspect too, as you can usually find them when you need them, you'd often rather have creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by aTn
I usually swipe out 2 cloud of faeries for 2 misdirection, and possibly 1 SoFI or Psiblast for another misdirection. Misdirecting sinkholes and vindicates is just cruel.
Thanks for your opinion, it helped me better understand the Deadguy Match-up. Eldariel, what does your most recent decklist look like ?
Here's what I'm playing with on MWS right now, probably not polished, but what I found in the deckfile:Quote:
Originally Posted by aTn
Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
8 [7E] Island (3)
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
Creatures
4 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
4 [AN] Serendib Efreet
4 [P2] Sea Drake
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [SC] Shoreline Ranger
2 [TSP] Looter il-Kor
2 [UL] Weatherseed Faeries
// Spells
4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [U] Psionic Blast
2 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
Sideboard
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [U] Psionic Blast
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [MM] Misdirection
3 [IA] Binding Grasp
3 [A] Winter Orb
The sideboard had a few extra slots so I threw a Jitte and a Blast there, I don't really advocate keeping Jittes sided. Looters have been pretty nice for me, I've actually killed Soltari Priests with 'em too in addition to shuffling through my deck and having evasive evasive beats. It works, but I would probably get the 3rd Jitte back in before going to a tournament.
I am still in debate over the looter il kor spot. The draw, then discard, can really suck (if you only have one card in hand, or have no cards in hand, you can't attack because you'll just fill up your 'yard, and he can't block, but it's nice to have equipment on it)
I was looking at this card:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardd...p?product=8803
Saprazzan Heir
1U
Creature
Whenever Saprazzan Heir becomes blocked, you may draw 3 cards.
1/1
Put some equipment on that zinger and every turn your opponent is looking down the barrel of a browbeat.
I don't know, just an idea. I might test it as a 2-of in looter/thirsts' spot. Looter draws and filters, but not fast enough. I don't like thirst there because it eats up all of your mana early game and doesn't deal any damage, and lastly if you have no artifacts, it's a lousy spell.