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Carnophage, Sarcomancy, Negator, Sinkhole, Hymn to Tourach, Dark Ritual, Pump Knights, Dystopia, Planar Void, Diabolic Edict, Snuff out, Vendetta and Wasteland are all not allowed in Extended (Extended is Invasion onwards and 7th onwards), and after Extended rotates, Duress, Rotting Giant, Nantuko Shade, Cabal Therapy, Wretched Anurid, and Engineered Plague will rotate out.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup
Ouch...Quote:
Originally Posted by KillemallCFH
I would like to see an updated match-up analysis against all the relevant decks in the meta if anyone has it. Also, looking around different forums and boards Suicide Black gets either mild respect or none. How competitive can you make this archetype? I know piloting skill is a huge part, but does anyone think this deck itself is a serious contender? Also, what tier is it generally considered to be.
I think most people don't give it credit is because of Red Death. It plays the strongest cards in sui with reach, which IMO makes it much more viable than just sui.
It depends on how well the deck is built. If you can get the numbers and choices right then the deck can be Tier 1.5 or better (maybe not tier 1 but something like tier 1.25).
I have been putting alot of testing into this deck and i will give a matchup analysis later today or tommorow.
I'd like to add my own voice to technogeek's experience here. His analysis of what to board in, the reasoning, and the general result is spot on.
Techno, if you have any experience with regard to the Landstill matchup, I'd like to know that also. I have very little in my meta. I imagine the maindeck is best suited to fight landstill, but I really have not clue how hard the MU is (especially given how many variations of landstill are running around).
It would also be sweet to see the win percentages you're getting off most of those games. I know hardly anyone keeps record of that kind of stuff unless they're actively trying to; but even an estimate would be nice.
Im as of right now 9-3 for goblins, 6-5 for thresh, 3-0 for fast combo, 1-2 for solidarity, and 2-15 against ichorid(its freakin hard to win this). Landstill i havent recorded but i think im close to even. ill edit the first post in a little bit for the landstill matchup.
Fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by KillemallCFH
Techno, what's your current maindeck list? I can't find it.
For what it's worth, I completely agree with Planar Void in this deck's sideboard, in quantities of four. It's incredibly hot. Shuts down several combo decks, keeps Tarmogoyf in check, hurts Survival, hurts Threshold, hurts some Landstill variants. Beautiful card.
Yixlid Jailer isn't bad either with all the freaking Loam-packing decks and Dread Return floating around.
How necesarry is removal?
This is bound to bring up some controversial discussion.
I honestly don't know how much removal is needed in sui-black builds. If against combo or control, the removal is too often just a dead card. Of course, many of these MU's are overwhelmingly in sui-black's favor, so it's not as if that really matters.
What about against aggro-control and aggro? Sometimes removal is invaluable. Alot of the time I feel like that slots devoted to removal would be better suited as a threat. If you're on the beatdown does it matter if you have removal in hand, generally not. But there are times when a single spot removal spell sways one from the defensive side, to suddenly beating down the opponent. Maybe it's even more important than it once was due to a particularly troublesome green monster.
Quite honestly, as some have noted; I've been cutting the majority of removal in my sui-black builds. In my Stark-black build w/ the 1cc zombies, I run Jitte... it's a must. In my other build, I maindeck Plague Spitter which deals with most weenies, and if that isn't enough usually the boarded in Engineered Plague will be. I've felt the removal was weak and I don't have enough room to devote enough slots to rely on its use in a game.
So back to my question to everyone. I don't want to know what removal you're running (Snuff Out, Smother, Edicts... not interested). Instead, how many slots are you devoting maindeck to spot removal? And how important are these slots? Are they weaker cards in the deck; or are they a must keep portion? Oh... and your reasoning of course?
// Sympathy for the Devil, the answer to Goyf...
// Mana 25
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
6 Swamp
// Creatures 15
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Jotun Grunt
// Spells 20
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate/3 Vindicate, 1 Swamp
// Sideboard 15
4 Dystopia
4 Engineered Plague
3 Yilix Jailer
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Swamp/Vindicate
Red Death, with a slightly higher curve. Jotun Grunts are simply amazing against Tarmogoyf, and the deck still plays the same way, somewhat. Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate are both solid cards to answer Goyf, as well has more disruption to strain the opponent's mana base. Only difference in this deck is that Vindicate either kills a land and buys you Tempo, or it's an answer. IMO, much better than Chain Lightning and worth the cost of 3 mana.
@Taco: Here is my current maindeck list. As of right now im looking for a spot to put the third jitte in. I dont want to take a creature out because that would bring my creature count down to a shaky level. i was thinking a creature removal but i havent decided which.
17 swamps
3 wasteland
4 Dark confidant
4 Hippie
4 Carnophage
3 Sarcomancy
3 Gator
4 hymn
3 Duress
3 Snuff out
3 smother
3 sinkhole
2 Jitte
4 dark ritual
So to answer galroths question i have currently 8 spots for creature removal. Ever since goyf was printed i believe that spot removal has become more and more important. In a meta full of thresh and goyf variants sui blacks removal makes it as viable or even more so then red death because our removal isnt dead if we cant get a certain color. I would say in power level they are the same as hymns and land destruction. Hymn takes 2 random cards and on average 1 card that they need and sinkhole/waste takes their lands which makes a attack on their tempo. Creature removal operates the same way taking one imperative card away and disrupting a turn of the opponents developement.
Hope that answers your question.
I have 4 devoted slots for removal (Edict) and Jitte as well. Not to mention the abilty to (hopefully) remove duplicate Goyfs via Cabal Therapy. If Thresh were to end up being so huge as to dominate every tournament I would probably SB in additional removal in form of Smother.
See, this is where you get into the fundamental flaw in the strategy of Suicide Black, and why Threshold is always going to be a better deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
Threshold gets to use Force of Will, Daze, Spell Snare, and all its disruption suite to also help control creatures.
Sui Black doesn't. We get Hymn to do that, and maybe Therapy or Unmask if we run it. Duress doesn't cut it. Ostracize might, especially with Cephalid Breakfast and Tarmogoyf decks on the rise, but there's too many decks even Ostracize blows against. But the fact is, we have to get our disruption in immediately, because we can't stop anything an opponent topdecks.
I don't think Removal should, in theory, be necessary beyond a certain extent. I think the right path to go with Suicide Black is with an incredibly fast opening that parlays into something. Stark Black could hit your hand with Unmask while simultaneously setting up a turn two Jitte/Swing. Red Death, before Tarmogoyf, could have so many Negators and other fatties staring down your throat that you couldn't recover in time. Paint it Black, pre-Flash, ran Hatred instead of removal, backed up by Dark Ritual/Chrome Mox and 14 discard spells to make sure you couldn't respond effectively.
I think the correct removal spell, without any splash, is Jitte. Everything else is too narrow as far as I'm concerned. We also get additional removal in the board, in the forms of Engineered Plague and Dystopia.
Our best bet to dealing with Tarmogoyf is to either knock him out of hand, take him on with a giant Nantuko Shade, or sideboard like crazy against him. Or, if you want to run a splash, pack a quad of Spectral Lynx and Swords to Plowshares.
I completely agree with your stance on Jitte, but 4 more removal spells in a pinch seems perfectly justified in my opinion.
My whole deck consists of creatures and disruption. Adding more creatures seems redundant and the only disruption left are the likes of Unmask, Funeral Charm, and Stupor which would be viewed as uneccesary and underpowered. Unless you're adding more disruption or more creatures, what else could you add other than Bob (I don't even class him in with creatures) and LD? Then you're going back to MBC and the dynamic changes completely.
I'd like to have a little security just in case a fatty drops on the other saide of the table or I'm playing another agrro deck. Disruption won't catch them all.
Well its all about the meta game realy. If thresh is unpopular in the meta and hate is lacking then thresh would be stronger then sui black. But on the other hand, if thresh has presence in your meta game then i believe that sui black would be a stronger choice. Sui blacks strengths lie in its amazing openings and a powerful sideboard. Sui black has dystopia and planar void against threshold which makes the matchup between them lopsided. Yes thresh has counters but Sui black is filled to the top with must counter cards. If they use there counters to stop your hate then they wont have any left for your threats and disruption.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
removal helps gator a lot. As big as he is, if they keep on blocking, you won't be in a good situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
As for the threshold comment, unless black get some better cards, other than funeral charm, you are always going to have a few games where you lose to topdeck. Funeral charm is a good card, but its effects are not good enough to be Maindecked. In fact, its not even sideboarded. The card is situational, but good in many situations. It kills 1 toughness people, it pump for 2, and it makes your creature unblockable to people playing swamps.
As for the comment about tier, Red Death is tier 1.5 and sui is 2. Suicide's problem is definately reach, because top decked creatures can ruin your day. Even as solid as red death is, I find that many times it depends on if I draw answers or burn. That is shown more clearly with sui. Piloting sui isn't hard and isn't easy, but I think playing sui has to do with luck a little more than playing thresh, as thresh is amazingly consistent, except some occasional mana screw by opposing LD.
I don't want to clog up the thread with OT decklists, but bear with me. I'm just making an example and I want to be specific.
Maybe someone could explain something to me? Why can't we just make the tiniest splash just to include a single card and expand the SB without becoming Deadguy, Green/Red Death? What harm would come and how could the deck be any worse if white was splashed JUST to play STP?
Here's another for instance, using green...
8 1cc Zombies
4 Shades
4 Negator
4 Goyf
4 Hymn
4 Duress
3 Removal
3 Rancor
3 Jitte
4 Ritual
4 Bayou
8 Fetch
7 Swamp
that's basically my deck with the -2 Giants, -2 Wretch, +4 Goyf and -3 Therapy for +3 Rancor. I replaced 8 cards here, but both single G. I only got rid of the Therapy b/c of the disynergy with Goyf, but either way in or out I don't see how it would break the deck?
Gator and Goyf and discard go well together. Opponent blocks, sac the Sarcomancy. Free permanent and now you have an enchantment in the yard and Goyf gets bigger. Need to lose another, sac the Rancor and you get it right back. This to me doesn't seem any less viable. It would be no slower. You can still Ritual out whatever you could turn 1, then drop a Goyf turn 2 and swing with a Trampling Goyf turn 3. Rancored Goyf welding a Jitte in his (does he have hands?) vines and things should interesting.
Besides all that you expand the SB to include things like Krosan Grip or others.
I'm sure I'm missing something and not nearly as experienced in the game (especially todays game), so forgive for sounding stupid.
I have considered splashing white for just grunt and stp alone many times. I havent realy thought about it for green but it would seem to make sense. Sui blacks creatures are large enough especially if you add goyf so i dont know if i would run rancor. Also what enchantments pose a threat to this deck that would make you include grip. The only ones that i can think of are taken care of by dystopia.
I was just making an example of giving the deck some reach. Krosan Grip was the first thing that came to mind.
I only brought up Rancor because a 7/6 trampling Goyf is just plain scary. There's no chump blocking against similar aggro matchups, it's just game. It has good synergy with Gator as well.
I'm the first person to admit being attached to Sui and it being mono colored, but if the deck is just going to fall flat then we need to adapt. If more reach or the all powerful Goyf can do that, then so be it.
I've also been thinking of Bgr deck. I wanna call it Black Christmas...
black christmas was already thought of by Hanni, it is Brg and everything... he just doesn't run the sui creatures.Quote:
I was just making an example of giving the deck some reach. Krosan Grip was the first thing that came to mind.
I only brought up Rancor because a 7/6 trampling Goyf is just plain scary. There's no chump blocking against similar aggro matchups, it's just game. It has good synergy with Gator as well.
I'm the first person to admit being attached to Sui and it being mono colored, but if the deck is just going to fall flat then we need to adapt. If more reach or the all powerful Goyf can do that, then so be it.
I've also been thinking of Bgr deck. I wanna call it Black Christmas...