[OLD] UGw Threshold

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

My experience? Playing around Wasteland sucks. For one thing, often you need double Blue, for either Counterspell or two cantrips at once;

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Yeah, you want two blue sources. That's why there are sixteen of them in the deck. Sixteen is enough to function.

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and that Forest was awful, as I said, in an opening hand, akin to a forced mulligan.

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Unless you have a good use for green mana or are playing against a deck with Wasteland.

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My experience is also that playing around Wasteland like this makes Rishadan Port kick your ass. Most of the deck costs 1. I'd rather have two trops and get one Wasted, than have a Forest and an Island and have either one get Ported.

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You're still talking about it as a land slot, which is incorrect. With sixteen blue sources, I am comfortable with the deck's ability to find two of them. Again, I'm not sure where you're experience comes from, but my experience in testing and in tournaments for the past couple years says that Rishadan Port will target green sources. They can almost never cut you off of blue, so they target the next most important. In this situation, any extra green source helps you get through it.

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That and with a basic island + basic forest you still can't cast StP.

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StP is far weaker than a creature, there are half as many of them, and you can even cast it in response to Wasteland.

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If the forest was another Trop in that scenario, they still couldn't cut you off of either Blue or Green with a Wasteland. Heck, if it was a Savannah at least they couldn't cut you off of any color.

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I was responding to the suggestion that Forest should be replaced by Island. But yes, you are correct that sometimes you can just as easily run on nonbasics. That's why fetchlands are great and why there is only one Forest.

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Originally Posted by Mad Zur

Yeah, you want two blue sources. That's why there are sixteen of them in the deck. Sixteen is enough to function.

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Then another functional spell would be better.

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Unless you have a good use for green mana or are playing against a deck with Wasteland.

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No, it sucked regardless. Man cannot live off of Pithing Needles and unthreshed Mongeese alone.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Then another functional spell would be better.

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Unless you are worried about Wasteland, such as when you are playing against the most popular deck in the format.

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No, it sucked regardless. Man cannot live off of Pithing Needles and unthreshed Mongeese alone.

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Oh, you mean if Forest is the only land. Sure, I'll mulligan 1.579% of the time for a card that lets me win through mana denial. By the way, another functional spell, as you suggest, would also require a mulligan in this situation.

Ok, here's a scenario that very well might come up:

You have two lands, one being a tundra, and are playing against goblins. On their turn they drop a wasteland and pop it to destroy land. If your second land is a trop, they will target that and cut you off of green mana. If your second land is a forest they will target the tundra and cut you off of both white and blue. Because we're only running 17 land, this can come up quite often (where you don't have immediate access to another land) and in this scenario trop is infinitely better because you will still be left with cantrip mana.

If your lands were island and forest the wasteland is worthless, but you are stuck with subpar land drops that severely limit your play options (as mentioned, you can't play 2 cantrips or a counterspell). Based solely on these examples, replacing the forest with a trop or fetch sounds better.

I understand that this comes up very infrequently, but I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario outside of a full wasteland-lock where that forest is any better for you (in the long-run). This is why I think I'll replace it with another blue fetch in my build. However, I have also found that 16 blue sources is enough, so that 17th land might remain monastery for me (which, while never casting anything on its own, will benefit me in the long run more than a forest will).

I've played this deck against multiple wastelands and even waste-lock with the forest in play and without the forest in play. I think the benefit of having one green source unwastelandable is negligible because if they have a waste-lock they're either not under pressure and you will lose, or they're under pressure from your creatures already in play and you'll win. Maybe my mindset on this is scewed, I don't know. But I think I'm dropping the forest from my list.

My only consideration now is, as I stated before, are people running BtoB or blood moon?

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Originally Posted by Solpugid

If your lands were island and forest the wasteland is worthless, but you are stuck with subpar land drops that severely limit your play options (as mentioned, you can't play 2 cantrips or a counterspell). Based solely on these examples, replacing the forest with a trop or fetch sounds better.

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Being cut off of the third color and Counterspell is much better than being cut off of green. Playing creatures is really important. If you only have two lands against Goblins and they have a Wasteland, you're better off if they're Island + Forest than any other combination. You're scenario illustrates that it if you are forced to rely on nonbasics, it is often correct to fetch additional nonbasics to play around Wasteland. However, in situations where you are not already relying on nonbasics, or in situations where you have more than two lands, Forest is extremely helpful.

I've won a few games against Goblins, solely because they couldn't touch my Forest. They sat there with around 3 Wastelands, and 2 Ports while my Needle was on Ports. I had a couple Geese' and a Bear in play, as well as 3 Islands, a Forest, and the gamestate was at midgame. He was topdecking mana denial and couldnt throw it at me. He did open with a Vial, then went on to play Matron turns 3 and 4, and then a Ringleader. Let's just say they never resolved, and I was bashing him down. I won that game because of Needle, and because my Forest couldnt be touched by Wasteland. My opponent would've had the laste game on his side if I didnt fetch a basic forest.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

I've experimented with a load of different land configs and have found the basic Forest to be awesome. I think the stability it provides, overall, compensates for the extremely rare position of having it be the only land in your opening seven.

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I think this is a good time to reiterate that one land (non-basic) hands are questionable regardless. If your keeping a hand with one Tropical Island as your only mana source think hard about why you're keeping it. If you keep that hand knowingly against goblins you have no right to win that game. Although, I admit there are exceptions, just not many.

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

I think this is a good time to reiterate that one land (non-basic) hands are questionable regardless. If your keeping a hand with one Tropical Island as your only mana source think hard about why you're keeping it. If you keep that hand knowingly against goblins you have no right to win that game. Although, I admit there are exceptions, just not many.

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It's true. You almost, always want that first turn Island, as it is very vital against Goblins. Even playing a 1st turn Forest has it's benefits against Goblins.

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

It's true. You almost, always want that first turn Island, as it is very vital against Goblins. Even playing a 1st turn Forest has it's benefits against Goblins.

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Third'd. Whenever I fan out my opening hand the first thing I look for is a blue fetchland or an Island. This is also why I run those two Polluted Deltas that few people have adopted. Because that first turn basic Island is one of the most critical parts of the early game.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

Third'd. Whenever I fan out my opening hand the first thing I look for is a blue fetchland or an Island. This is also why I run those two Polluted Deltas that few people have adopted. Because that first turn basic Island is one of the most critical parts of the early game.

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It really is. I got around to testing your build, and I originally had 3 Heaths and 5 Blue fetches in there. I cut the 3rd Heath because of weak it was against Goblins, and the fact you really dont want that Basic Forest until midgame really. You'll probably cantrip/draw into it around then.
Those Blue fetches are even better against Goblins Post-Board enabling you to play spells like BEB and Stifles against them. Basically, anydeck that can take full advantage and capatalize on you right after an LD spell means that deck is powerful. Red Death and Goblins come to mind. If you let them walk all over you with just a "Wasteland," at least you have Basic Lands as an out. Even moreso against Goblins.

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

It really is. I got around to testing your build, and I originally had 3 Heaths and 5 Blue fetches in there. I cut the 3rd Heath because of weak it was against Goblins, and the fact you really dont want that Basic Forest until midgame really. You'll probably cantrip/draw into it around then.
Those Blue fetches are even better against Goblins Post-Board enabling you to play spells like BEB and Stifles against them. Basically, anydeck that can take full advantage and capatalize on you right after an LD spell means that deck is powerful. Red Death and Goblins come to mind. If you let them walk all over you with just a "Wasteland," at least you have Basic Lands as an out. Even moreso against Goblins.

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how did you find room for the 5th blue fetch?

4 Tundra
3 Trop
1 Forest
2 Island

That leaves 7 lots for fetches if you want to run 17 lands. Now if your running 18 I can see where you are coming from.

On a side note..has anyone tested Rain of Swords? It seems like jank I know, but why not. I only wish there was a better board sweeper than Crusade, WW hurts like nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

how did you find room for the 5th blue fetch?

4 Tundra
3 Trop
1 Forest
2 Island

That leaves 7 lots for fetches if you want to run 17 lands. Now if your running 18 I can see where you are coming from.

On a side note..has anyone tested Rain of Swords? It seems like jank I know, but why not. I only wish there was a better board sweeper than Crusade, WW hurts like nothing else.

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I would think -1 Tundra +1 blue fetch.

My current land config:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

My current anti-Goblin tech is Dueling Grounds, though I haven't played any games vs. Gobbos with it. And now that I've dropped the T Crusades (due to the WW problem you mention), I might reconsider the Plains slot.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

I would think -1 Tundra +1 blue fetch.

My current land config:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

My current anti-Goblin tech is Dueling Grounds, though I haven't played any games vs. Gobbos with it. And now that I've dropped the T Crusades (due to the WW problem you mention), I might reconsider the Plains slot.

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We tested Dueling Grounds briefly. Now that Krosan Grip is around that plan seems suspect. Plus you have to leave in the Enforcers to be effective.

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

We tested Dueling Grounds briefly. Now that Krosan Grip is around that plan seems suspect. Plus you have to leave in the Enforcers to be effective.

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I know we've been over this before, but I really don't think you should be siding your Enforcers out in any event, Dueling Grounds or otherwise. Enforcer is an unlikely champ (and trump) in this match, as counter-intuitive as it would seem.

Also, the fear of Krosan Grip is not a good reason to not run DG, for one, they're only going to board it in if they know you're running enchantments (which few Thresh lists do) and really, I don't think it's a big deal. How many Gob lists are splashing Green in the first place (maybe 20-25%) and how many of them are running Krosan Grip?

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

how did you find room for the 5th blue fetch?

4 Tundra
3 Trop
1 Forest
2 Island

That leaves 7 lots for fetches if you want to run 17 lands. Now if your running 18 I can see where you are coming from.

On a side note..has anyone tested Rain of Swords? It seems like jank I know, but why not. I only wish there was a better board sweeper than Crusade, WW hurts like nothing else.

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My mana base is this right now...

3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath

and what you just mentioned.

I had seven fetches, just 2 Heaths.

I havent tested Rain of Swords... but I have tested Chill recently. It's amazing. You stop an active Vial, you basically won the game. Your opponent plays Chalice and has no Lackey or Vial in play, again, you've won. It's amazing with such a high cantrip count.

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

I havent tested Rain of Swords...

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Rain of Blades is what I think y'all are meaning to say.

I kinda like Bardo's Dueling Grounds tech, actually.

I dunno... Chill is kinda awesome. It's not a big strain on your manabase, and it makes shutting things down easier. Just Needle the damn Vial, and your fine. Helmut even used Chill. Esp if you run Mental Note, you can actually walk all over your opponent's with ease, since your going to capatilize your opponent's over just one stupid Chill.:laugh:

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Originally Posted by Volt

Rain of Blades is what I think y'all are meaning to say.

I kinda like Bardo's Dueling Grounds tech, actually.

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yep, thats what I meant. Anyway test Dueling Grounds and let me know what you think. As for keeping in Enforcers...I agree with you to some degree, but I can't confirm how good it is myself because I have been taking them out for as long as I can remember. There is no question in my mind though about leaving them in if I bring in DG.

Do NOT board out enforcers. I've been leaving them in against everything except combo and they have been great.

Enforcer isn't bad against Goblins, but in my opinion, everything else in the deck is better (assuming no Mage). Cutting draw is something you can only do to a limited extent, because you'll need to find your sideboard cards and possibly recover from Crypt. You can only trim counters so much, as well, since they have a good amount of must-counters already and are probably boarding into more. If I board six cards against Goblins, I generally take out both Enforcers, one Counterspell, and three draw spells (although I still don't know which three).

Enforcer will win games sometimes, but it will also get stuck in your hand or shuffled away because you can't play it, where another draw spell would have found you a creature you can play or the mana you need, or a counter would have bought you some more time to find those things. Facing mana denial, I'd rather have cards that find me more lands to play through it than cards that cost four. Against early pressure, I'd like to be able to answer Lackeys and Vials and get my draw engine going; Enforcer doesn't help with either.

Werebear does almost everything that Enforcer does in that matchup, so I'd rather have spells that can get me Werebear because they can also help out in a lot of situations where Enforcer is poor.