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Instead of Visions run Remand.
Instead of Daze run Counterspell.
Also, think about running Annul considering that most of the spells that can hurt you are either artifact or enchantment. EngPlague, Humilidy, Trinasphere, Iscochron Sept, Chalice for 2, Deed.
Um......yeah.
First, we're not replacing any cantrips with counterspells. This deck has a light counter suite, and it needs the cantrips to find the slivers and other answers it needs. We're not cutting Visions or Daze.
Annul is a possibility, though, but only in the board. Not maindeck. Wehave maindeck answers to a lot of artifacts in the form of EE. It takes care of Trinisphere, Chalice (although not for 0), Plague, Scepter (not that anyone runs that) and Deed (not that they wouldn't just pop it in response). Countering them would be fun, but not as a maindeck option.
As for the 3 vs. 4 Daze argument, I was simply thinking that 3 Daze is enough to see it early game, and little enough to not see it late game. I could totally see it being a 4-of. As for Call, Volt's rugged persistence has led me to believe that it might still be good, even as a 1-of. If he likes it that much, there's gotta be something to it, right?
And CoV is great against a lot of things. That's why I think we should board it against the things that it's great against. Just not in the main.
THIS IS WHY I'M ANGRY ALL THE TIME ON THIS THREAD.:mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Team-Hero
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick676
Lol. Quick, somebody say something soothing!
Mav, I have Ice Cream! Cold, creamy, delicious Ice Cream! Now calm down....that's right, come get the ice cream......now take a nap...good boy.
:tongue:
NEVER!!!!!:mad:
Now bring forth a human sacrifice to appease my anger...or a cookie, whichever's easier.
I'm off to buy a cookie then...or a virgin. Whichever I can find first :tongue:.
However Annul could be worth considering in the SB. My 2 cents.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
I have no objection to annul, but I think that needle usually takes up it's spot in the SB and does its job better anyways.
Ive found a counterspell combination that Im really happy with, and its all thanks to Hanni.:confused:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
Theres just something about that combination that is magical, I cant explain it in rational terms. It just feels like I always have the right counter at the right time.:cool:
I was running that same exact combination for a while. It's a fairly typical configuration for UGW Gro decks. I find Counterspell to be a little clunky in this deck. Gro can play out a Nimble Mongoose and a Werebear, and then just sit back, keeping mana open for countering and cantriping. We generally can't do that. We have to spend the first several turns playing out slivers and cantriping when we can. Counterspell is usually dead weight during those turns, and frequently just ends up getting pitched to a FoW. That said, they can come in pretty handy in the late game.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx
Ok, there are some rational reasons for 2x counterspell maindeck. 1) Its another hard counter 2)Its easy to sideout for more specific hate 3)It makes game 1 of the combo matchup better and 4)Its never completely dead game 1 because its counterspell and most decks out there play spells:wink: It is a bit clunky but its never short on power. I think its safe to take up 2 spots MD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
I'm not going to put up much of a fight, because I could go either way on this one. Counterspell is never bad, but it is certainly less good in this deck than it is in Gro. I think in an aggro-heavy environment, you're better off without them. In a control/combo-heavy environment, they're certainly justifiable as a maindeck choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx
I'm inclined to agree with Volt on this one. Counterspell helps shore up our game 1 against Combo and Control, and Stifle/EE or whatever else you would cut for it help against Aggro. It really depends on what you expect to play against game 1 most times.
In my opinion, 2 counterspells would be a nice addition to the main deck. I'm concerned about board sweep that comes out of nowhere and just cleans out your 4 slivers and beats you down before you can recover.
If you think about it, the only hard counter in the deck without counterspell is FoW. Now, FoW+Daze is cool and all, but when your opponents start playing around daze, your only hard counter is FoW. Throwing in a couple more hard counters would be nice to stop those WoG that really screw you.
The only answer this deck possesses against board sweep is hard counters. FoW alone won't reliably get you through matches against control. Specifically, I feel this deck has a bad matchup against Truffle Shuffle. Their discard followed by board sweep can really ruin CounterSliver's day. I realize all decks have their bad matchups (except for Thunderbluff of course), but why not improve the match a bit by adding a couple counterspells?
Counterspell is rarely a dead card in your hand. It is an answer against everything you really need to worry about. When is drawing a counterspell ever bad? The deck's overall strategy is to get in some early game disruption via countermagic along with some card quality cantrips followed by the massive attack slivers before they can truly recover the advantage. Counterspell isn't extremely terrible early game, and makes up for its early game flaws in this deck by giving it a stronger finish.
Trust me, it's terrible sitting there with your 4 untargetable, first striking 2/3's and 3/4's and on the brink of victory when your opponent busts out WoG or even double pyroclasm and you sit there wishing that chain of vapor was a counterspell. (i speak from experience lol)
If your meta has alot of control decks, such as truffle shuffle, then maindeck counterspells would be a better idea then needle or explosives. But if your meta is dominated by aggro then counterspell is just too clunky and unnecessary.
I think a couple hard counters wouldn't be that bad. They certainly couldn't hurt. Maybe 2 MD and 2 in the board? That way we have some hard counters main and we can bring in more if we come up against combo/control game 1. We could side out the EEs against combo, and perhaps the Stifles against control?
EDIT: Mav has a point that the slot is really metagame dependant, but I think that this is what's been keeping us from the Open so long. We need to settle on an optimal list, regardless of meta.
So I thought I'd throw out this deck list. It's pretty much Pinder's list, but I took out 3 Pithing Needles, added a Stifle, and added 2 Counterspells. This should solve the whole EE is better vs aggro whereas Counterspell is better vs control/combo issue. Personally, I really just see Pithing Needle as a sideboard card. I thought I'd also throw out a sideboard and discuss our sideboard options to get this thread into the open forum.
// 17 Lands
//Creatures (16)
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
//Draw (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
//Countermagic (12)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Stifle
//Removal (7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
SB:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chill
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Worship
4 Meddling Mage
In terms of sideboard:
Pithing Needle - Hoses a myriad of stuff. Salvager game, cycling, deeds, and so on. I don't think i need to do much explaining here.
Chill - A lot of people still play the random burn decks. I thought this would be nice against random burn and an added bonus against goblins. I didn't want to rely on only worship, because I'm a bit worried about the new Krosan Grip card.
Chain of Vapor - This card has been discussed enough in this thread. It's agreed that it is helpful in many, many situations, but terrible in many, many others. Therefore, I thought I'd toss it into the board.
Worship - Worship + Crystalline will win a LOT of games.
Meddling Mage - the card that beats combo. 2/2 for 2 that names High tide and cunning wish vs. solidarity. The card that names Tendrils and Echoing truth vs. iggy pop. and so on and so on.
Feel free to enlighten me to some obvious tech I may be missing as I wrote this a bit hastily so we can get this wrapped up and into the open forums.
Why is it that we need to agree on an exact list? Alot of decks have metagame dependent slots, It was one of the things I loved about landstill.
Also I've been looking at the list and I think running needle main is a mistake. It is a very strong card, but with it out we don't want to explosives for 1 or 2, so explosives for 3 becomes our only option. It seems that one needs to go and I think explosives is a much more versitile card. This is one thing I like about stifle MD as a 4 of, It isn't hit by explosives and it stops most of needle's targets albeit less effeciently.
EDIT: Looks like me and durahan are on the same page about needle.