[Deck] Pox

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Originally Posted by jebus

Has anyone actually tested going without Pox in the maindeck? I think Aggro zombies mentioned something along those lines before, when he attempted to make a primer several pages back. Has this been discussed? Yes, I know the effect is too big and evil to cut [heck, I was the guy who once said that 4 Pox was best], but perhaps this should be given at least token consideration.

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I am experimenting with Poxes entirely in the sideboard at the moment. For reference:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
10 [TE] Swamp (4)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
3 [MM] Nether Spirit

// Spells
4 [U] Sinkhole
3 [TSP] Phyrexian Totem
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [US] Duress
3 [UD] Powder Keg
3 [PY] Chimeric Idol

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [IA] Pox
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)

This list is by no means polished, but it seems to show the most promise in terms of having good all-around matchups game one. Hell, even Goblins isn't too bad, as long as they don't god-draw and go nuts on you in the early game. This version of the deck is very good at applying pressure post-disruption and has straightforward sideboarding plans as well.

Wouldn't Hymn be better maindeck than Duress, if you had to pick between them? And maybe I'll give the Mox-Crucible tandem a go, seeing as you've been running them for a while now.

And nice to see you drop the Factories for Idols. Turtle power ftw

Bane I was referring to the most recent build you posted, which to my recollection didn't run Crucible, Top etc.

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

You should maybe check to see my latest list posted before making remarks like that. As far as Im concerned Aggrozombies and I put most of the extensive development into the deck. I know he isnt sold on your white splash and niether am I but let me put clearly for you, Vindicate does not help the goblin matchup. It deals with Vial just as fast as Powder Keg but cant be used to hit multiples. Bane of the Living came up with the inclusion of Crucible. I implimented and pushed the change pages ago, go refresh your memory. Page four on this thread, we started testing it last October. I also added top to the developed list. Regardless I just havent found enough success with the deck. You dont have stronger matchups than the Deadguy/Red Death ones but still restrict yourself to things like no Pox unfriendly creature base, ect.

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True vindicate doesn't help versus the goblin matchup, but it shores up many places were mono-black is weakest at. Vindicate can remove artifact and enchantments (the bane of black :smile: ). The splash for white could be good for throwing in 2 or 3 Gerrard's Verdict. You most likely are going to get cards instead of lands from your opponent's hand, but when you do it to yourself you can get 6 life or 3 life plus Nether Spirit into the yard. The biggest reason to splash white though in my opinion is Ghostly Prison. I have been playing Prison in pox for some time, and the results are excellent versus the aggro matchup.

Goblins isnt the problem for black/white pox especially after board with the inclusion of Engineered Plague. The matchup seems to be a near autowin for the deck.

The problem with the deck is with other burn decks or burn/aggro decks like Red Death and mono-red burn. Pox seems to scrub out to them because whenever you pox or small pox you are losing life. Most of the cards in the deck are just dead cards versus those types of decks.

Is anybody going to take Pox.dec to a tourney in the next time??

It seems as if the deck is going down as there are no good results posted.
And this thread doesnt get that much posts anymore.
Well there is a new one (Vaka Pox)...

At the moment I prefer playing Red Death because beating face is so much fun.
Nevertheless Pox is such an archetype concerning disruption that I dont want to see it being buried.

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Originally Posted by feuerizer

At the moment I prefer playing Red Death because beating face is so much fun.
Nevertheless Pox is such an archetype concerning disruption that I dont want to see it being buried.

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This is what we've also come to realize. Red Death is the hymn/sinkhole deck that just packs a better punch. It has better win conditions and the removal doubles as burn.

The archetype needs a new kill condition. Maybe from Future Sight?

After 1 week of testing, i come to the conclusion that Dark Rituals are the worst card in the deck; it is really not so useful turn 1 or 2, and is a horrible useless topdeck mid and late game; then i cut the rituals for a swamp and more distruction, the creatures are now 3-3 (Spirits & Stalkers) to end the game faster.
Here the decklist for reference:

4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
10 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory

3 Tombstalker
3 Nether Spirit

3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Infest
3 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
1 Duress

The 4 fetchlands are here for shuffling purpose and for use again with crucible; this version of deck is tuned to work nice against aggro deck or weenie, that here prevalent among my friends and in general here where i live.
For the side, among the plagues to gg goblin (that is a very favourable matchups also with the maindeck), i'm thinking to use a very different strat vs control & combo, cutting from 2° game the infest & bloods and adding The Rack as another win condition and some other discards spells like Wrench Minds or similar.

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After 1 week of testing, i come to the conclusion that Dark Rituals are the worst card in the deck

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The Rituals are card disadvantage but sometimes needed to keep up the speed with fast decks. At the moment I dont use them either.

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The 4 fetchlands are here for shuffling purpose and for use again with crucible

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So why dont you play Top?
It was a great innovation for the deck as a ´draw engine´. Top allows you to dig through the top three cards and then shuffle the deck via a fetch land to find your disruption spells.


I hope that Tombstalker is THE kill condition the deck was longing for!
The testing shows good results so far.

Time for a big fat necro.

4 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith

4 Small Pox
3 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Torach
3 Engineered Plague

2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
16 Swamps

Thoughtsieze can bring this deck back. Err...I should say make it competitive for the first time in a long time. Its not effected in the slightest by gaddock but has many of the same elements that constitute a good control deck.

How is it not affected by Teeg? Both your win conditions are unplayable under Teeg. However, I do like the list but I'm questioning having 4 Tombstalkers - aren't multiples pretty dead most of the time because you're likely to be paying full cost?

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Originally Posted by WiLdFiRe

How is it not affected by Teeg? Both your win conditions are unplayable under Teeg. However, I do like the list but I'm questioning having 4 Tombstalkers - aren't multiples pretty dead most of the time because you're likely to be paying full cost?

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His win conditions are creature. Teeg affects non-creature spells. Reading the cards for the win!

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Originally Posted by WiLdFiRe

How is it not affected by Teeg? Both your win conditions are unplayable under Teeg. However, I do like the list but I'm questioning having 4 Tombstalkers - aren't multiples pretty dead most of the time because you're likely to be paying full cost?

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cait_sith already answered the first question. As for Tombstalker cost, its actually really easy to get them out cheep. But if you have one out its not always optimal to try and play out another one. the slowest creature in the deck is a 5 turn clock by itself.

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

Time for a big fat necro.

4 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith

4 Small Pox
3 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Torach
3 Engineered Plague

2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
16 Swamps

Thoughtsieze can bring this deck back. Err...I should say make it competitive for the first time in a long time. Its not effected in the slightest by gaddock but has many of the same elements that constitute a good control deck.

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Don't you think 4 Duress + 4 Thoughtseize is too much? Those are dead cards most of the time if you top deck them. Moreover, the life loss from Thoughtseize might be a problem in a pox deck, especially late game.

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Originally Posted by Jeet

Don't you think 4 Duress + 4 Thoughtseize is too much? Those are dead cards most of the time if you top deck them. Moreover, the life loss from Thoughtseize might be a problem in a pox deck, especially late game.

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It is really hard to know without testing it, I'll let you know how it goes.. Also, I've found that Nihilith is boarderline and falls in the "danger of cool things" catagory. I want to test The Rack in this slot instead. Epocrisite might also be an option worth exploring.

My Pox List: Purple Haze Pxo

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
13 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
2 [MM] Nether Spirit

// Spells
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [ON] Smother
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [UD] Encroach
4 [U] Sinkhole
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
2 [5E] Pox
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [7E] Duress
1 [WL] Spinning Darkness
3 [PLC] Extirpate

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AL] Dystopia
SB: 3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 3 [MR] Relic Bane
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [IA] Sunstone

Card choices:

Encroach: with the shear number of non-basics in the top decks the odds of this being preemptive land destruction is very high. Add Smallpox and Sinkhole into the equation and their first few turns can be hell, mana wise.

Crucible of Worlds: It is nice to be able to recover quickly from your own Pox/Smallpox, especially with heavy colored mana requirements. The fact it presents the opportunity for a Waste-lock is a bonus.

Pox: I am using a very low because, while is can be devastatingly powerful, the fact it sucks so deeply into my life, has a triple black cost, and has difficult to control symmetry makes it not a very good card to see in multiples.

Extirpate: It randomly wins games and gives you insight into your opponent's strategy; information that can be used to plan Poxing and sideboarding. You can also turn them against extra Nether Spirits.

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth: Black heavy deck running multiple colorless producing lands makes this card an easy choice.

Mishra's Factory: He is an aggro stopper and can be reused thanks to Crucible of Worlds. A solid wincon.

Nether Spirit: I am sticking with him simply because he is free most of the time. Also, while other wincons vanish forever when you use (Small)Pox, Nether Spirit can actually shield other resources against it.

Smother: Fuck Tarmogoyf is all I have to say on this matter. That, and the fact that lowering their number of creatures forces them to choose less attractive options for Smallpox sacrifice.

Spinning Darkness: Lego tech here. This helps if you have both Spirit's in the graveyard and need one gone, and can just act as free removal/life gain in a pinch. Three more SB just help out against Aggro heavy decks.

SB:

Sunstone: This card randomly stops aggro dead in its tracks and can create a soft lock with Crucible. If nothing else I often can buy time to start smashing removal at them.

Dystopia: Good for those nasty G/W Enchantments like Moat, Moat, Moat, Moat, and Moat. Yea, I fear Moat. It can also deal with stuff like Ghostly Prison ad the like, as well as vacuuming up creatures. It is a slow card, but often you can nuke 2 permanents for 1 life and 1 card, a good deal.

Relic Bane: I kept having issues with artifacts, specifically ones like Crucible of Worlds, Smokestack, and anything else with a troublesome static ability. This way I can at least slash through their life while I am trying to wait them out.

Engineered Plague: Good vs Goblins and Empty the Warrens, plus can beat on Elvis and other such nonsense.

Greetings all. Firstly, my background. I got into magic right before Ice Age came out, then I whittled my collection down to 4 decks (around the time of Onslaught) ... My favorite archetype was what could be called "DrainLife/Pox/Aggro" ...in a casual Type I meta.

... then my 4 decks were stolen. Now, I'm out of grad school (ie, disposable income) and looking to slowly make a comeback into Magic, and to make an entry into "real" Magic. Mox+Lotus are right out (not THAT much income :laugh: ), so I'm going for Legacy.

(I know -- The Pox deck is probably not the strongest deck I could start with, but I *want* to make it work.)

Without further ado, here's the list I'm working:

Land (24):
16 swamps, 4 Bloodstained Mire, 4 Polluted Delta

One's (12):
Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, The Rack

Two's (16):
SmallPox, Hymn to Tourach, Night's Whisper, Sinkhole

Three's (8):
Pox, 3*Phyrexian Totem, 1*Nether Spirit

Sideboard (15):
Leyline of the Void (-3 Sinkhole, -1 Nether Spirit vs. GY)
Chains of Mephistopheles (-Night's Whisper vs. multi-draw)
Infest ((-1pox, -1smallpox, -2phyTotem) vs. swarms)
3* Desolation (-1pox, -1thoughtseize=61 vs. 'draw-go')

Other things I've toyed with for Sideboard:
Bottomless Pit (BB1 ench, discard random during your upkeep)
Innocent Blood
Liability (BB1 ench, Lose a life when a card hits your GY from play)
Oppression (BB1 ench, discard when you play a spell)

Things I've learned since finding this awesome board:

Powder Keg!! That's a great find -- I thought it would be too slow, but the games end up being slowed by Poxing enough that I could easily get Keg to a good fuse count.

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Ok, so I'll go into my choices a little now.

Fetchlands -- These thin the deck out tremendously, giving me 2 lands on one draw. The damage? Whatever. Also, these get pitched-to-pox if I happen to draw lots of swamps.

Dark Ritual -- I've read with great interest the debates about keeping/pitching Rituals. Call me too scared or too old-school, but I like the boost they give - it's explosive, especially if I draw 2 or something insane like that :D ... Top-decking a ritual? Not a problem when there's 1 swamp & 1 Totem on the board!

Nights Whisper -- I'm not enamored of Sensei's Divining Top for this deck. On the recommendations in this thread though, I'll test it. But Night's Whisper? I think it's the bee's knees for this deck that already abuses life as a resource. Plus it rounds out the 2-mana slot.

Thoughtseize -- strictly better than duress except vs. a non-creature deck. I don't think I need to discuss it.

The Rack -- If The Rack cost :2: we wouldn't be having any discussion, but since it costs :1: ... I am NEVER sad to see it, or 2 or 3 or 4! Keeping cards in your hand to play around it does NOT hurt my feelings -- you'll want to play something, sometime! Sideboarding Chains'o'Meph to hose card-vantage just about triples the power of the Rack. It's my clock-kill-condition.

ONE Spirit + 3 Totems -- It's the mana, baby. With two swamps out, I can ritual into a Totem, then tap out for a small pox/night's whisper/etc. :cool: I don't want to EVER see more than 1 spirit in the deck, and I certainly don't want to rely on StP or Tombstalker to remove an extra. One is enough -- if it were bigger or had some evasion, I might long for more consistency, but... no.

SIDEBOARD: 4 Leyline of the Void is unstoppable vs. GY recursion, but useless otherwise. Chains of Mephistopholes hoses cardvantage in a way that is hard to appreciate until it lands :) Infest sweeps weenies, even x/2's, something that engineered plague doesn't, unless you have 2 out.

The last stack is what I had difficulty deciding on. I think that Desolation is the one. Recurring landD in a deck already made for saccing its own land? Yes, please. Once any of my kill conditions are out, gooooood night.

Now, what I left out:

Innocent Blood -- Meh. It's a solution looking for a problem, imo. Better solutions, wider solutions exist.

Chimeric Idol -- It didn't make the cut. Free 3/3, I know, I know. Didn't *make* mana, though, and such a small body/no trample...

Crucible/Factory/Urborg/Wasteland -- Something about relying on this didn't sit right with me. Cutting them out seems to be the answer. Cutting Crucible makes me trim the mana costs, because I'm not getting the land back. Cutting Wasteland saves a land drop and keeps the mana black. I miss a LandD effect -- sort of. Without Crucible, Wasteland is too symmetric, AND not-black-mana. Factory is meh, and without relying on it, cutting Crucible, I don't have to worry about needing Urborg. Which also makes me mostly immune to enemy Wastelands! :)

Now the other cards that I considered for Sideboard (Bottomless Pit, Liability, & Oppression) didn't seem to be as "universal" as the Desolation (everybody taps lands, right?), or were too symmetrical. Cutting down on needing *any* mana made Desolation my last sideboard choice.

...

All this thought process, though, was before I realized how well Powder Keg waits. I would probably go down to 3 Chains, 3 Infest in the side & -1 Night's Whisper to Side 3 Powder Kegs. Squeezing in Powder Kegs maindeck? I see people are doing it, but I'll play around with this basic set.

Thoughts, anyone, especially on my non-standard selections?

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

Thoughts, anyone, especially on my non-standard selections?

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How about pitching 4 lands for 4 Chrome Mox? Pox and Smallpox don't hit Artifacts and you get a tempo boost early on from resolving one with a CM in play.

Pitching a Dark Ritual to setup a 2cc spell turn one and a 3cc spell turn two is a nice tradeoff to actually using the ritual.

The Chrome Moxes can also get you around some early counter situations that would be critically lost otherwise.

The main reason I rejected Chrome Mox is that I'd rather not *pitch* good spells, I'd rather *cast* them.

The way you present the argument is very nearly convincing... but in a deck that's already very cannibalistic, I ph34r putting a useful black spell into the GY without getting its effect. It also puts me into topdeck mode really fast. In your scenario, Dark Ritual is the *best* spell to Imprint, surely, but the idea is to win quickly, before they can recover from Pox-ruption. Three mana for one card + 1 :b:-source helps that; in my opinion, 2 mana for 2 cards that *then* gives +1 :b:-source doesn't. In short, it's steady, yes, but not *explosive* enough. Also, top decking one without a black card to Imprint would SUCK.

Also, none of the Pox decks above that others are developing use it. (not that I completely net-decked this -- I net-carded :tongue: )

Oh, EDIT: Suppress? Ritual into Suppress will sure slow down someone's first turn, and give me good Rack matchup the rest of the time!

I have a lot of testing to do (number-of-games-wise) -- I want to try floating a few of the sideboard cards in there (esp. Powder Keg), as well as testing out Sensei's D-Top... I'll report (in a few days), but I'll also keep an eye on the thread :wink:

wow. nice to see this thread back after months of nothing.

mujadaddy:
that's a LOT of self damage. sure, playing black means you get to use life as a resource, but there's got to be a limit somewhere. 20% of your deck pings you for 1, another 20% pings you for 2 or more. that does add up, and leaves you little room for error (something you don't have much of in the first place with this deck).

don't go for Chrome Mox. you can't afford to just ditch cards like that with this deck. Rituals are much better, or Mox Di's if you have the CoW's to abuse them. besides, the cc's are small enought that the boost isn't really worth it.

I'm also iffy about your win conditions. Nether Spirit is okay (I also found that one is enough), but The Rack is so-so for me, and I've given up on Totem a long time ago (I'd prefer to use the 2B activation cost elsewhere, and a 3cc artifact won't really help your mana)... You should try:
- Chimeric Idol
- Tombstalker
- Nihilith
- Epochrasite
the first two are already proven guys, but the latter two I'm not so sure. Both are intriguing options, though.

And PLEASE fit in SDT's. They make the deck so much better.

off the top of my head, I'd go with:

23 Swamps / Fetches / Wastes (if you want them)
4 Dark Ritual

3 SDT

3 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize/Duress

3 Tombstalker
4 Idol/Nihilith/Epochrasite/The Rack

4 other stuff (extra discard, extra wincons, Powder Keg, E Plague, Innocent Blood, metagame stuff, etc etc)

I am still testing. I will reply further when I've exhausted my testing, but I'll touch a few issues:

Self-damage -- Yes. It's a lot. But the small/Pox suite is symmetric damage, the Night's whispers & Thoughtseize are capital-C-Champions, and the Fetches are nearly champions, too. Getting 2 more cards for myself, and picking out an important one, are worth 2 life, imo. Tight margin for error? Thoughtseize loosens that margin by viewing the opposition's strategy. Also, playing a Pox deck makes one VERY aware of errors in play, which keeps me focused.

I'd prefer to use the 2B activation cost elsewhere -- I would too, frankly -- that's why it's only a 3-of. And I don't have to activate it if I don't want. I get to pick & choose when it sweeps in. Like I've said, I'm still testing variables.

a 3cc artifact won't really help your mana -- on the contrary, having it in the deck does help the mana in midgame, because of Rituals (on the rare occasion I don't have something cooler to do with a Ritual) & poxes (if I need to, I pitch the Totem to the poxes; if I've already cast the Totem, I've got :b: that sticks around).

Chimeric Idol is the one that I'm rotating out in my testing for Totem. 3, however, isn't as sexy as 5-trample (I need to test v. Gobs more, b/c I can deal with 'normal' aggro speeds, but I haven't tested vs. Hordes much. However, I don't see Idol over Totem as being the solution, because it's still just a groundling and it doesn't trample if I need it to).

Tombstalker? People looooove the tombstalker, but to me it's just another chump that I have to sac vs. my own poxing. Nihilith is the same, and is less easy to get onto the board -- I tend to win by the time 7 cards hit the opponent's GY (not to mention, he's useless if I side in Void-Line). Epochrasite seems too slow to me as well -- he's wayyyy on the back burner as far as test scenarios go.

re: SDT -- you didn't even fit it into your sample list! :laugh: BUT I am going to try some. Powder Kegs, too.

Off to test.... I'm still eyeing the thread though... See ya soon.