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Jitte + Avenger >>>> Jitte + Sea Drake, everyday of the week. Vigilance is the deciding factor here. I'd gladly pass on 1 point of power for Vigilance. Vigilance breaks the creature deadlock that you'll often find yourself in w/ Fish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
Also, Sea Drake is a big commitment re: his CiP trigger. When have you typically been dropping him? As early as turn 3? Do you wait until you have 4-5 lands out?
@Hanni: WoW will rot your brain (kinda like prons). Just don't do it. Also:
Meddling Mage is dead. At best, it could be a board card against Combo, and the same holds true with Stifle. 16 is too high of a creature count, but cutting the MM's should make your count 12, which would be fine if you ran 'Gator. On that note, with 4 Mother of Runes, there is no reason you shouldn't run at least 2 Negators Serra Avenger should always be a 3-of, if only becase of the interactions with MoR (epic blocker w/ Vigilance) and 'Jitte (7 a turn if you pull two counters).
@Volt: Sea Drake makes me sad. Sea Drake + 4 Daze = epic fail. Being a control deck, super tempo disadvantage is not the best plan. The +1 power is nice, but the lack of Vigilance and the tempo loss makes it a bad idea here. On the topic of 3cc cards, is there a slot for a few Shadowmage Infiltrator?
Fish is a tempo based deck, not pure control. But I get what you're saying, and I was alluding to that earlier re: Sea Drake's CiP commitment.
If you're looking for 3cc beef, I'd run Serendib Efreet, then Phyrexian Negator, before running Sea Drake, and none of those three would replace Avenger's slot. I could see cutting her down to 2 (cuz you typically don't want her/see her until turn 4-6 anyway), and maybe shaving a single Daze off for 2 Seredib Efreet/Negator. Slightly beefier and gives you 3cc spells to fight CounterTop.
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@Volt: I'm not sure if I ever posted on the topic, but I have always believed that CounterTop belonged in Fish since Counterbalance was printed. I also believe that the deck should have become as much like bwu threshold as it could, trading Green beats for more control, better board cards and the ability to run a few less cantrips because it would be entirely yard independent. Phyrexian Negator deserves a home in this deck. Period. There is no reason that it shouldn't be at least a 2-of, if not a 3-of (although having 4 is a bad idea because you can't guard them all effectively). Phyrexian Negator is the only reason I would be fine with cutting the creature base to less than 14 (please note I think the optimal number of creatures in the deck would be 12-13). The paragraph of RAWR RAWR RAWR SEA DRAKE IS BAD IDEA RAWR RAWR RAWR was probably a little bit much. Volt, you have my apologies.
At any rate, the last line O' defense against combo should be CounterTop + free counters + thoughtseize, maybe with Stifles in the board (this would be my pick over Meddling Mage for sure), not rawr rawr Mage on combo piece, because Mage, being a creature, has all the shortcomings that a creature/ permanent has. Combo decks have been playing around Mage forever and they do an ok job at it, even getting rid of Mage during the combo off, giving you two things to take care of (protecting Mage and stopping the combo, or the alternative combo in some cases). I close this paragraph in saying that I really don't like Meddling Mage outside of Agro-Agro-control like Vault O' Hate where it has so much discard backup it isn't even funny. That's all I have to say. Oh yeah, Avenger is good because of Equipment and Moher of Runes (MoR makes it epic creature comtrol). Should the creature base look like this?:
Mother of Runes x4
Phyrexian Negator x3
Serra Avenger x3
Dark confidant x3
That would be 13, with Confidant more as CA than creature, and I would rather have something else in it's place, but the CA is much needed (or at least wanted).
I think this statement warants a double-post simply because it is on a vastly different topic than my first and it would be a shame if it were to be lost in the density of the first post.
This deck is no longer Fish. No longer does it seek to abuse vulnerable disruption sources like Meddling Mage. No longer does it run bad card choices because they answer a certant deck archtype. No longer is Fish a metagame deck. It is a deck that will (eventually) mature into a deck that has compotent, winnable match-ups across the board, a deck that doesn't cry when the metagame changes. This deck is going to be what all bwu control decks wish they could be. This deck is going to be, given enough time and attention, Ubw Threshold (or whatever you want to call threshold now).
Maybe this helps explain my thoughts on this deck, and maybe this will help accelerate growth in the right direction. Maybe it's spam, who knows? :rolleyes: I'm going to close with saying that the future of this deck, whatever it may turn out to be, is bright.
@Raharu
I completly agree on, well, pretty much everything you have stated. Although I love me some Mage, Duress, and Portent I would rather play the deck with a faster clock. Serendib and Negator deserve attention, I really don't know why they don't bt oh well. Your creature base looks very ideal, although i run only 2 Avengers. I have toyed with Infiltrator and he is okay, it really helps that he has a better chance to dodge CounterTop and Chalice.
I don't really know what is with the reluctence of running 3cc creatures, I'd rather rely on Negator or Seredib than Lynx.
I love the idea of of UWb Thresh. :laugh:
Regarding UWb Thresh... I've been playing a 4c deck running mongoose and goyf over avenger and MoR/Negator/Infiltrator. I think it's incredibly viable w/ the strengths of Fish and W-splash thresh, with the only drawback being a stretched manabase. I agree with you raharu that the current decks being discussed on the forum are not "Fish", and I feel (sadly, at that) that traditional fish w/ MoR, Avenger, MM, etc. is no longer all that viable. I do think that anyone wanting to continue running a more Fish-esque build should be playing Spectral Lynx MD (assuming your meta is in the 50-70% thresh like most). He's mana hungry w/ his regen, but if you drop him on turn 3 and keep that underground sea untapped he's an absolute house.
Ubw thresh
Creatures: 13
Mother of Runes x4 (non-negotiable slot)
Phyrexian Negator x3 (must be here, but the number could be debated)
Dark Confidant x3
Serra Avenger x3 (maybe as a two-of, but it has to stay, and neither as a 1-of or 4-of)
Control: 13
Thoughtseize x4 (non-negotiable slot)
Daze x3 (non-negotiable slot, maybe the number though)
Counterbalance x2 (non-negotiable slot, maybe the number though)
Force of Will x4 (non-negotiable slot)
Removal: 4
Swords to Plowshares x4 (non-negotiable slot)
Cantrips: 10
Sensei’s Divining Top x3 (non-negotiable)
Ponder x4 (non-negotiable)
Brainstorm x3**
Equipment: 2
Sword of Fire and Ice x2***
Lands: 18****
Flooded Strand x3
Polluted Delta x3
Underground Sea x4
Tundra x4
Island x2
Plains x1
Swamp x1
**: Brainstorm was cut to three because they suck horridly in the early game and the deck is really mana hungry, so Ponder’s ability to fix your land drops is more needed, and at any rate, the deck only runs 10 shuffle effects, 4 of which are Ponder. I would really rather have Portent here, but I’m sure someone would die if that was in the original list.
***: Beats the crap out of ‘Jitte for obvious reasons. The deck has little desire to attack into a creature because Mother of Runes pretty much dominates the creature side of the board, so ‘Jitte receiving counters from creature combat is irrelevant. The ability of Sword of Fire and Ice to draw cards is HUGE! It’s like having a beefed-up Shadowmage Infiltrator that burns on contact running around the board versus having a Darkblast/ bad Healing Salve/ bad Giant Growth on legs. The life gain is irrelevant because if you stick a SoFI to Negator/ Avenger, you are going to win the game in 3 turns or less. ’Jitte does nothing the turn it’s equipped, where SoFI has a constant, immediate effect, and the damage to the opponent when maximized is the same (although one generally doesn‘t spend all of a ‘Jitte‘s counters on an attack swing and you probably want to use a sword contact to burn-out an opponent‘s creature). Yes, ’Jitte is slightly better with Serra Avenger, but Negator has better synergy with SoFI, and since Negator is our new “Finisher”, that really doesn’t matter (and SoFI shields Avenger from catching a bolt to the face…). Yes, ’Jitte has it’s own advantages against Goblins/ Zoo/ Agro, but SoFI pretty much makes our creatures unblock able in these matches, and SoFI can burn-out blockers with the best of them. At any rate, with our creature-base, does that really even matter? It should pretty much eat random agro for breakfast or at least have a good game against them. Upon being given a objective analysis, SoFI beats ‘Jitte with a lead-filled snow-shoe all day every day.
****: More lands would be nice… Something like 19, maybe 20, but prolly 19.
Noticeable Exclusions:
Uwzema’s Jitte: see above
Meddling Mage: Yep, it’s a bad card choice. This deck couldn’t be (good as) Meddling Mage.dec if it’s life depended on it (there are soooooo many other good synergies with MM that aren‘t in the deck and would hamper this deck‘s effectiveness). If you really want to continue including this card in this deck you may as well still build for Hulk Flash.
Duress: If you read the Ugb threshold thread, you’ll know why this should have never been in the deck. I am absolutely ecstatic that Wizards printed Thoughtseize. Duress is good in the right deck, but it has always seemed somewhat sub par in this one.
Spectral Lynx: This was only included because everyone was crying about Tarmogofy. Now that we’ve pull our heads out of our asses and realized that a bigger/ equivalent creature rested comfortably within our casting cost range and our colors (Phyrexian Negator), Lynx has no home here. Lynx should have never replaced Mother of Runes.
The sideboard might look something like this (but duh, it depends upon the metagame in which you play)
Sideboard: 15
Stifle x4
Vindicate x4
Blue Elemental Blast/ Hydroblast x4 (fucking Blood Moon/ Magus of the Moon… 8 of them? That's simply malicious)
Tormod’s Crypt x3 (better than Leyline against a good portion of decks)
Raharu I love the list, looks pretty much the same as mine. :tongue:
I personally play with 2 Avengers, 3 Counterbalance, and Jittes instead of SoFI (although i do need to test it). 19 lands sound good too. I completly agree on Lynx, although Lynx is just cool. It should have never replaced MoR.
All behold Fishy Thresh.
[QUOTE=centurion8;193419]Regarding UWb Thresh... I've been playing a 4c deck running mongoose and goyf over avenger and MoR/Negator/Infiltrator. I think it's incredibly viable w/ the strengths of Fish and W-splash thresh, with the only drawback being a stretched manabase.QUOTE]
aYb agro-control? I've always liked the deck, but with Mystic Enforcers. I feel that while that deck is more explosive, bwu thresh (it's a misnomer, but you can't call it Gro and you can't call it NQGbw) has more control and likes to control the pace (/tempo) of the game, winning on the clock best suited for it at the time (fast vs. MUC, maybe other thresh builds and slow as hell for agro and Goblins)
About that sideboard earlier... Wow, that's bad. I think the most apropriate procedure would be listing good options for the SB. Here we go:
Propaganda: A solid choice against random agro, Zoo, Goblins (less narrow that Engineered Plague), and maybe even thresh.
Extirpate: Graveyard hate. Much better than Crypt in most cases but at the time I was thinking about Crypt or Leyline/ Planar Void.
Blue Elemental Blast: Fucking Blood Moon/ Magus of the Moon. Also removal for Goblins (faster than Vindicate)
Vindicate: Universal answer.
Engineered Explosives: Whatever one uses EE for nowadays (GTFO Mongeese, GTFO)
Stifle: rawr rawr rawr combo combocombo. Yep, that's where it's at. Hits Pernicious Deed and Nyirval' Disk too (please forgive the spelling).
Pithing Needle: The aforementioned Deed and Disk, a permenent solution to Goblin Charbelcher, AEther Vial, Fledgling Dragon (or you could board out CounterTop vs. thresh and board in Needle... Prolly a bad idea, but it's just an idea).
Chalice of the Void: NinjaTech for the mirror? Out comes Cantrips, in goes some Chalice and Vindicate?
That should be a start. Anything else would be apreciated.
Okay, I have to argue here... Last time I checked Brainstorm is arguably one of the best commons ever printed. Being able to play my card draw/land fixer EOT, or in response to an opponents spell to dig for a counter/removal. I mean, it's an instant that nets you a card, and allows you to get rid of crap in your hand. Sure, Ponder allows you to shuffle, but BS allows you to knowingly put a card on top for counterbalance. You can play what you like, but this seems like a really awful set-up IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
Also, where is the "thresh" title coming from? It plays nothing w/ threshold...
Yes, all true, but the deck kinda feels mana hungry, and I like to dig for lands without stacking crap on top. Really one could/ should switch the Ponder/ Brainstorm numbers since both dig for three and net you a card before the end of the turn, and while I find Brainstorm w/o a shuffle a little less than stellar, the instant speed is quite nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by centurion8
NQGr, UG (land destruction) thresh, Ugw (control thresh) thresh and Ugb (not sure of it's role, prolly massive CA, a better board and more/ different control) thresh don't play alike either. Really this deck is less agro and more control than white with the ability to explode or regress into either. Phyrexian Negator and Mother of Runes play a large role in this, allowing you to either swing through the lines or hold off pretty much anything.Quote:
Also, where is the "thresh" title coming from? It plays nothing w/ threshold...
The draw of this deck (still needs a suiting name, since Ubw thresh is a misnomer) is the best removal (Swords to Plowshares), the best board options (Extirpate, Engineered Plague, Stifle, Leyline/ Planar Void if Extirpate won't do it, Propaganda, Vindicate, ect. ect.), the best proactive control (Thoughtseize is epic), all while retaining a no less efficent creature-base (although individually green thresh has better creatures indivadually, as a whole the base is the same in capability, difficulty to remove and power).
No, of course we don't have Tarmogoyf, Mystic Enforcer, or Nimble Mongoose, but we do have paralells or answers to them and a tighter control game.
Not like we have a weak combo matchup anyway, but Grimoire Thief from Morningtide looks to be mildly saucy versus Storm-based combo decks... Possible addition to UWB Fish?
In place of what? How would this really help? Why would I play that over Meddling Mage (and why would I play Meddling Mage over Stifle?)? It's not a bad sugestion, it's simply a bit weaker than what we already have access to.
I was thinking Thief + Mage, not Thief instead of Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
Thief forces your opponent to rethink how they stack the top of their deck. This is increasingly important in the Brainstorm, Ponder, and CounterTop meta that is taking shape. By threatening Thoughtseize + Thief, you force your opponent into the tough decision; do I let the Fish player grab something good w/ his Thoughtseize or do I Brainstorm in response to hide something good on the top of my library, but possibly allow it get RFG and subsequently get a second copy countered?
Thief also can act as Stifle 5-8 if you were able to snatch their Storm kill card. This is not realistic as most Storm decks only play 1-2 copies of their chosen kill card, so grabbing 1 copy of it w/ Thief seems highly unlikely. But your opponent doesn't know if you've grabbed a copy or not, so I'd be willing to bet that they'd bounce/kill Thief before going off just in case. And that doesn't even count the fact that they still have to bounce/kill Mage too.
Again, not saying he's an auto-include, but I think he could be looked at a bit closer possibly as a sideboard card.
But still, what would you cut? If you want Meddling Mage as well, what do you think is going to happen to the creature base? You get something like 4 Mage, 4 Thief, 3 Confidant, 2 something else. Not too appealing, if you ask me.
I think he meant to ask why is this thing called "Thresh" if it doesn't run any cards with Threshold, alot decks run FoW, daze and countertop and they are not named thresh why should this? IMO the deck should be named something cool like Eva Green or Death & Taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
It's called Hanni Fish basicly. :cool:
Let's just add Ghastly Demise, there threshold. The deck thats been posted lately, Raharu's and mine, just doesn't play like Hanni's build so it does need a good name. And really the deck does play like Thresh, excpet more controlling and IMO more versitile thanks to Mother of Runes.
I could see Grimoire Thief being added to Hanni Fish, the one that still plays Portent/MM/Cabal Therapy. I think it would be pretty good in there actually.