[ATW] Landstill

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Originally Posted by Agent Funk

@konsultant: Hey do you mind showing us your most updated landstill list?

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This is the build as of this past weekend.

Konsultant Landstill:

MD:

4 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Decree of Justice
2 Eternal Dragon

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

3 Engineered Explosives

23 Land

SB:

3 Extirpate
3 Spellsnare
2 Disenchant
2 Crucible of Wolrds
2 Humility
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Fact or Fiction

I too am running into issues with Tarmogyf. It isn't really the creature that's the problem it's more the decks he is being played in and the fact that for some stupid fucking reason he only costs 2 mana, nice job with that one WOTC.

Deck 1 is the Cephalid Breakfast. I believe this deck is ruining Legacy in the same way that Flash did. It's way to powerful and to easy to get into play. Thankfully it is more disruptable [only if you are playing control, not really sure what the hell goblins are really supposed to do] than Flash was. I am not really running into problems with stopping the combo, my problems are more with dealing with the "distracting" Tarmogoyf's after I had to board out my Wrath's. I am testing out some new theories that seem to be working better. The adding of Humility in the SB was with this problem in mind. Some of the other ideas I have been trying seem to be working in testing, I'll post more on them if they work in some actual tournament play in the near future.

Deck 2 is Threshold [specifically the build that won worlds]. I have never really considered any Grow deck to be a "bad" match up for Landstill but it did knock me out of the top 4 this past weekend 2-0. Since then I have done some extensive testing and the problems I have found are these:

1. Spellsnare is great at stopping Standstill's and Counterspells.
2. 4 Wasteland's and 4 Stifle's are great at screwing up your Mana Base.
3. Tarmogoyf's are not easilly stopped by Mishra's or Decree [like any 2 mana creature with out any real drawbacks should be]
4. It is nearly impossible to play Standstill with Tarmogoyf in play, unlike Werebear or Nimble Mongoose.
5. With all of the things disrupting your ability to play Standstill and your Mana Base if they can overpower you for a few turns and stick a Tarmogoyf in play they will probably win.

I do however firmly agree with Tacosnape that Landstill will not lose to a deck that plays creature's, unless you beat yourself by not drawing land like I did this past weekend. Threshold is the other deck that I am keeping in mind as I am toying with my current list. I have found Innocent Blood to be very usefull against the Grow Deck but not really needed in any of my other match ups. This deck is another one of the reasons I added Humility into my SB. If anyone else is having trouble with the Threshold Deck, After way to much testing I have found that boarding in the Crucibles is the way to win this match. They can negate the early damage done to your Mana Base, whitch is really the only way Threshold is gonna win this match. They also give you the option of repeatedly blocking a Tarmogoyf to buy you the time to find the removal.

I played UW Cunning Landstill to a 5-2-1 record at Germany's Legacy Champs... just missing top8
Here's a report that might be interesting.

For refference, this is the list I played:

Code:

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UW Cunning Landstill by Clemens Wolff, influenced by Geoff Smelski

Mainboard (60 cards)
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland

2 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree of Justice

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

4 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction


Sideboard (15 cards)

1 Fact or Fiction
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Disenchant
3 Extirpate
2 Humility
3 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage

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With the current sideboard, I don't find Cephalid Breakfast to be that of a bad Matchup especially with Plague on Wizard (stops the Cephalid Illusionist and Dark Confidant), Extirpate (I usually go for Tarmogoyf) and Meddling Mage chanting Dread Return...

My current board plan against Cephalid Breakfast is:

-3 Cunning Wish (too slow)
-4 Wrath of God (too slow)
-2 Fact or Fiction (too slow)
-1 Standstill (not so good with Vial around)
+3 Engineered Plague
+3 Extirpate
+4 Meddling Mage

From above list I would only cut the Sideboard Fact or Fiction as the Cunning Wish into FoF is so clunky and isn't really worth the effort and replace it with a removal (Condemn or Ghastly Demise).
I'd also like to incorporate Vedalken Shackles into Landstill as it just seems like a very potent card and excellent solution to Tarmogoyf as well as speeding up your clock/stalling the opponent into not playing creatures/forcing the opponent to overextend into Wrath... in short it just does everything you'd always wanted.

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I am not really running into problems with stopping the combo, my problems are more with dealing with the "distracting" Tarmogoyf's

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Right now, I have Leyline of the Void and Planar Void in my sideboard. Both cards help address the Cephalid combo and Tarmogoyf at the same time. They also prevent flashback cards like Cabal Therapy and Crippling Fatigue. I'm unsure how good Meddling Mage is here, because you often want to set EE at 2 to remove Goyf. Plus, Mage can only stop one card at a time, whereas gy hate can affect multiple cards.

Quote:

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Deck 2 is Threshold

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I think that your deck has too many slow spells i.e. Wrath, Decree, Wish, Fact. Your answers need to be more mana efficient when you're up against a deck like Threshold packing Dazes, Stifles, Wastelands, etc.

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Originally Posted by jamest

Right now, I have Leyline of the Void and Planar Void in my sideboard. Both cards help address the Cephalid combo and Tarmogoyf at the same time. They also prevent flashback cards like Cabal Therapy and Crippling Fatigue. I'm unsure how good Meddling Mage is here, because you often want to set EE at 2 to remove Goyf. Plus, Mage can only stop one card at a time, whereas gy hate can affect multiple cards.


I think that your deck has too many slow spells i.e. Wrath, Decree, Wish, Fact. Your answers to need to be more mana efficient when you're up against a deck like Threshold packing Dazes, Stifles, Wastelands, etc.

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I agree with not playing Meddling Mage. The only deck I ever used him against was Reset. Against anything else there are usually better options. My Main Deck is more set up to beat Goblins or Random Decks than it is for these 2 Decks specifically. The Main Deck is capable of taking the win but it boards in several cards to help ensure the game 2 and 3 wins if needed.

I also agree with the speeding the deck up to beat threshold, in fact that is exactly why there are Spellsnares in the SB. My board transition is minus 2 Fact or Fiction and 3 Cunning Wish and in go the 3 Spellsnares and 2 Crucible's.

I have been arguing with Landstill player's for years about Decree of Justice and whether it's to slow. I don't know exactly what other player's stratagie's are but Decree is exactly why I play removal, It is what I am stalling the game to reach that eventual Decree for the win. The Eternal Dragon's are my alternative to Decree when they have to be but if you ask anyone that ever watches me play I don't attack with Mishra's they are there as blocker's for the most part. Really the only time Mishra's go aggro is when Standstill is in play and I have Counter's in hand with plenty of open Mana to spare.

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Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund

I played UW Cunning Landstill to a 5-2-1 record at Germany's Legacy Champs... just missing top8

UW Cunning Landstill by Clemens Wolff, influenced by Geoff Smelski

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Congrat's on your success with the list, Have you made any adjustmant's to it since the Tournament?

@geoff: I actually like your list alot. Seems streamlined enough to beat decks like breakfast, ichrorid, threshold, and probably still have a solid game against goblins after boarding. I want to go to the mana leak open 3 and if i do which there might be a good chance I will probably play with your exact list. Ive always been a big fan of your landstill builds Geoff and Ive played landstill and other control decks since I started legacy back in 2004.

Thanks for the list Geoff.

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Originally Posted by konsultant

Have you made any adjustmant's to it since the Tournament?

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From my report:

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Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund

- Fact or Fiction is way to slow to warrant a slot in the Wishboard

[...]

Without further testing I’ll make this change to the Sideboard:

-1 Fact or Fiction
+1 Ghastly Demise

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I chose to play Ghastly Demise or Condemn over something like Slaughter Pact because with only 3-4 black sources paying the Upkeep cost against decks like Goblins will be a real pain.
I'm not sure on which removal is best right now as Comdemn can kill an Attacking Mystic Enforcer but can't hit utility creatures.

Also I've never really liked to draw a Wasteland without having the Crucible... I think the mana base consistence issues really arn't worth the occasional possibility to color scew your opponent and/or to remove a single manland as those are nearly always acompanied by a way to reccur them... So I'd either cut down a Wasteland or try to incorporate Crucible of Worlds.
I'm currently testing a Hallowed Fountain in the 3rd Wasteland slot as it's really not that much worse than a Tundra because you can always fetch it at End of Turn if you've nothing better to do.

Something one might want to look into is Marius Hausman's last list which he piloted to a 5-3 finish in the Legacy Champs:

Code:

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UW Cunning Landstill by Marius Hausman

Mainboard (60 cards)
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland

2 Eternal Dragon
2 Decree of Justice

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

3 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish

2 Stifle
2 Crucible of Worlds


Sideboard (15 cards)

1 Fact or Fiction
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Extirpate
2 Humility
3 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage

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Another interesting list is this. It's the second place list of the German Legacy Champs which eventually lost to a weird RecSur build in the finals despite having access to Humilities before sideboarding... The look of the list is pretty nice but I really don't like the Enlightened Tutor in there as it's just plain carddisadvantage.

The UR list from gencon (placed around 20th) really caught my eye. Most notably, 3 md phyrexian furnaces. It seemed really janky at first, but i have been playing around with the deck, and have really liked them. I am interested as to what other people think of it. With 2 crucible, 3 disk, 2 EE, and 3 furnaces (plus needles and crypts from the board) you could justify running 1 x academy ruins.

UR lists in general have been doing pretty well for me. The burn really gives you some amazing reach, and flexability. That is just a first impression though, maybe im missing something?

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Originally Posted by honz

The UR list from gencon (placed around 20th) really caught my eye. Most notably, 3 md phyrexian furnaces. It seemed really janky at first, but i have been playing around with the deck, and have really liked them. I am interested as to what other people think of it. With 2 crucible, 3 disk, 2 EE, and 3 furnaces (plus needles and crypts from the board) you could justify running 1 x academy ruins.

UR lists in general have been doing pretty well for me. The burn really gives you some amazing reach, and flexability. That is just a first impression though, maybe im missing something?

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I always said that UR Landstill is good, but there has to be a american T8ing with it somewhere first beforce the deck receives attention or what? :wink:

And Academy Ruins = MY tech (see Doug Linn's article about Legacy in Europe where he introduced my UR List from Karlsruhe. But I threw them in spontaneously, actually they are not THAT good).

The only thing I don't really like about the GenCon List are the 2 Lavamancers . Running creatures in Landstill was never good (except Eternal Dragon which can also be recurred or Quagnoth which can't be handled by removal and is not affected by P.Deed).

And I'm also not a friend of Counterspell and Fact of Fiction, that's old-fashioned. But the old-school Stifles seemed to be very effective.
Stifle is also good against combo. Here's "my" latest list of UR LS.
But I will think about returning back to Stifles instead of Repeal (Repeal's also good against Counterbalance and has got some nice synergies with Wasteland and Standstill obv.).

// Lands
3 [UL] Faerie Conclave
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [A] Island (1)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
4 [B] Volcanic Island

// Spells
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
3 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
3 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [A] Nevinyrral's Disk
4 [A] Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty

I run Thirst for Knowledge over fact or Fiction because I think it's more flexible. In the past i often used Fact or Fiction just as a tutor for the final burnspell.
And in many matchups Disk were not good or dead, so you could turn it into CA.

Disrupting Shoal allows you to play Standstill more aggressiveley and you can tap yourself out to attack without losing the possibility to counter soem nasty stuff.

Also watch the CB-tech in the SB :cool:

I was actually refering to this list which placed 21st, and i agree that lavamancers are terrible.

2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Phyrexian Furnace
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Smash
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blue Elemental Blast



The furnaces being the crazy tech that caught my interest. This runs 10 MD artifacts, with 5 SB which i think should be enough to make ruins worth it. The lack of a strong draw engine could be a problem though, but you might be able to fit in 2 FoF / Thirst (-1 disk, -1 stifle).

I have actually played with a similiar list to adan's, and found the tops very lacking without counterbalance. Also, i never liked disruptive shoal, i would probly take mana leak / counterbalance over it. I don't like repeal either, its only real use is against a sutured ghoul / belcher.

UR seems to have a worse thresh MU, but better gobbos / ETW combo MU. I guess it is just a meta choice...

To be honest, Whenever I pilot landstill nowadays, I simply pilot Bel's landstill from a long time ago. I beleive it is still the best lanstill varient (although maybe slightly outdated).

lands//26
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Faerie Conclave
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tundra
4x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland
1x Island
1x Plains

spells//
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Standstill
3x Nevinyrral's Disk
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Fire/Ice
3x Fact or Fiction
2x Stifle
2x Teferi's Response
2x Crucible of Worlds
1x disenchant


Sideboard//

1x Nevinyrral's Disk
1x Lightning Bolt
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Fire/Ice
1x Stifle
1x Teferi's Response
3x Disenchant
2x Misdirection
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroclasm
1x Blue Elemental Blast

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

To be honest, Whenever I pilot landstill nowadays, I simply pilot Bel's landstill from a long time ago. I beleive it is still the best lanstill varient (although maybe slightly outdated).

lands//26
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Faerie Conclave
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tundra
4x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland
1x Island
1x Plains

spells//
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Standstill
3x Nevinyrral's Disk
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Fire/Ice
3x Fact or Fiction
2x Stifle
2x Teferi's Response
2x Crucible of Worlds
1x disenchant


Sideboard//

1x Nevinyrral's Disk
1x Lightning Bolt
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Fire/Ice
1x Stifle
1x Teferi's Response
3x Disenchant
2x Misdirection
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroclasm
1x Blue Elemental Blast

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I clearly remember when i used to playtest against Bel way back in the day thats the same exact list he used. I agree I think uwr landstill is clearly better then 4c landstill IMO as well as probably the best landstill list out in the meta. IMO bel is probably the best of the best with piloting landstill decks. Not to mention UR landstill is still a strong choice in the current meta as well.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

To be honest, Whenever I pilot landstill nowadays, I simply pilot Bel's landstill from a long time ago. I beleive it is still the best lanstill varient (although maybe slightly outdated).

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And what are your arguments for running such a build? 1 random Disenchant?
Nevinyrral's Disk when you are 3colored ( EE > Disk?!)? And, WTF, TEFERI'S RESPONSE?!
You got2b kidding. We are in 2007. Run Stifle Nr. 3 and 4.

It's simply UR Landstill with a worse manabase for 4 white cards (3 StoP and 1 random Disenchant).

So, supporting Plains also sucks.

There's absolutley no reason why that UWR Landstill should be superior to other Landstill variants, especially the UR one.

UR has got one advantage over the other Landstill Types: You can play aggressiveley, utilizing your removal as burn to the head, tapping yourself out without losing the possibility to counter (Force and Shoal).

Swords to Plowshares SUCK when you also run Burnspells as a secundary kill-condition beside manlands.

The swords is a must, beleive it or not... you need a way to deal with Tarmogoyf, as well as other random threats like jotan grunt and pro-red critters.

Disk is slow, but so is landstill... I run it out of preference and laziness (I haven't changed the list in years). What are they going to target with removal/stifles/wastelands... your lands, Teferi's response has been CA... cantrip twice and counter something... how lovely.

The maindeck disenchant gets rid of problem cards like needle, solitary confinement, and survival.

The one and 2 ofs are threre in the sideboard to shore up missing hate that isn't already present in the maindeck... That's why it looks like that.

The plains is necessary, being able to swords/disenchant something that's shutting down something is vital... you can't always burn your problems away (although you might in RL... I know I am a pyro).

Shoal isn't that great of an arguement, seeing as it can be used in every landstill varient... what you should really find is a card that only UR landstill can utilize/abuse that makes it better than argue it is better due to that respect.

Take what you will, I don't have to convince you guys... Me and Kev will know the truth.


This deck is a juggernaut, whether or not you are willing to see it.

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Originally Posted by Adan

And what are your arguments for running such a build? 1 random Disenchant?
Nevinyrral's Disk when you are 3colored ( EE > Disk?!)? And, WTF, TEFERI'S RESPONSE?!
You got2b kidding. We are in 2007. Run Stifle Nr. 3 and 4.

It's simply UR Landstill with a worse manabase for 4 white cards (3 StoP and 1 random Disenchant).

So, supporting Plains also sucks.

There's absolutley no reason why that UWR Landstill should be superior to other Landstill variants, especially the UR one.

UR has got one advantage over the other Landstill Types: You can play aggressiveley, utilizing your removal as burn to the head, tapping yourself out without losing the possibility to counter (Force and Shoal).

Swords to Plowshares SUCK when you also run Burnspells as a secundary kill-condition beside manlands.

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The deck already runs 2 stifles and one in the board. Also since threshold decks run stifle and wastelands to combat landstill then I don't think terferi's response is a bad idea not saying its the most solid card choice to put in that card slot though.

I disagree I don't think swords to plowshares suck with burnspells. Mainly because the more removal spells you can run especially in landstill the better considering playing a standstill as soon as you can is critical.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

This deck is a juggernaut, whether or not you are willing to see it.

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I never saw a UWR variant having any succes in any T8.

I also have 1 long year of experience with UR. I think I know how the deck works,how to play against Threshold and how some cardchoices are.

It almost began with this:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.ph...light=1#place1

continued to develop to this:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.ph...light=5#place5

That was almost the begin of UR Landstill in Germany.

I played it here:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.ph...light=5#place5

here:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.ph...light=4#place4

And I got better:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.ph...light=2#place2

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.ph...light=1#place1

Then, after some time, I chose to play it again in Karlsruhe (this is the list Hi-Val mentioned in his artivle where I played Academy uins for stupidness):

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.ph...light=4#place4

Believe me, Swords to Plowshares DO suck in Ur Landstill since it it completley contra-productive against the concept of UR Landstill.

Please explain why that list does not run Brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by Nihil

Please explain why that list does not run Brainstorm.

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LOL, I also didn't noticed that!!!

So umm...QFT!

It is a dinosaur of a list... brainstorm isn't as powerful in this deck, seeing as it only plays 4 fetches to abuse brainstorm. You will rarely need to dig for lands, seeing as the deck has 26... you also have power draw in the forms of standstill, FoF, and Teferi's response (to a degree). Simply put, you don't need brainstorm in order to function properly.

That statement is kinda confusing to me as well, seeing as I fit brainstorm in to very other blue deck as a four of first (right after FoW).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

It is a dinosaur of a list... brainstorm isn't as powerful in this deck, seeing as it only plays 4 fetches to abuse brainstorm. You will rarely need to dig for lands, seeing as the deck has 26... you also have power draw in the forms of standstill, FoF, and Teferi's response (to a degree). Simply put, you don't need brainstorm in order to function properly.

That statement is kinda confusing to me as well, seeing as I fit brainstorm in to very other blue deck as a four of first (right after FoW).

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It says fucking draw 3. Play it.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

It says fucking draw 3. Play it.

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Who plays Wasteland anymore? Exactly, play more Fetchlands for the sake of Brainstorm.