Taco, there's Lightbringer. It's a really dedicated card, but recurrable and solves the recursion issue once and for all.
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Taco, there's Lightbringer. It's a really dedicated card, but recurrable and solves the recursion issue once and for all.
I will admit I completely had to look that up. Never seen the card in my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by hi-val
The problem with him is that recursion is hard with all the yard hate Black Aggro packs, and he still can't kill a stupid Stromgald Crusader.
It seems like Masticore is your best bet. Though he does work a lot better in conjunction with Rofellos (and Quirion Ranger), he still controls the board like a champ. Taking out X/1 and X/2 critters is very manageable.
Back when Deadguy Ale was popular, I used to run Grb Survival with a full set of Mogg Fanatics as spot removal. I've had similar difficulties against them as they can attack Survival's frail manabase and just beat with creatures for the win. Quirion Ranger really helps but I wouldn't consider cutting anything for her.
It's been a really long time since I've posted in here. But, in the light that I might just be onto something here in terms of fixing bad matchups, and the fact that I just completely steamrolled a local tournament, means I think I'm doing something right.
What I'm talking about is a second look at blue in Survival. Once the NQS lists were introduced, I was quite intruiged by blue being back in the deck. A Survival engine with a great control strategy behind it? Seems amazing. I tinkered with those lists for a while, and enjoyed them at first, but upon second glance realized how bad those decks actually are. The first and foremost reason is that the deck is trying too much at once. Are you playing Survival, or are you playing Threshold? The deck was cluttered at 2cc beyond hell to the point where a Chalice @ 2 would put X's on my eyes. There was far too little removal to deal with aggro effectively, and a huge deal to me, Force of Will is not Cabal Therapy. It isn't even in the same league. But of course, the biggest problem of all, is that the deck ran way too few creatures to abuse Survival properly.
So, what I did was draw up a UGR ATS (I know, I know...) list that was essentially a mirror of the NQS lists. The reason I've wanted to go back to blue is because I believe if the deck can reasonably handle its bad matchups, combo and dedicated board control, then there isn't anything it can't beat. Blue gives you all the answers to this that black and Gaddock Teeg just can't cut. Actually, the main thing was that although black and Teeg are effective answers, they are sorcery-speed answers. Orim's Chant is a necessity in combo these days. If they don't go off before they kill you, they chant you a couple times first, so you can't play spells. I was tired of sitting with Teeg in hand on turn 2 and watching them go off on their turn. I wanted stuff I could use on their turn as well. Blue is the best at doing this. Technically white is good too as you have Orim's Chant and Abeyance of your own, but blue offers much more than that, which I'll get to below. Anyway, that UGR list I made was a disaster, for all of the reasons I stated above on why NQS was a bad deck.
However, it did make me realize how incredibly powerful Stifle is in this format. Take a look at the cards modern Survival decks have trouble with: storm, Wasteland, Pernicious Deed, etc. Stifle handles all of them. It also happens to hit fetchlands and whatnot and provide you with an advantage, mana disruption, and a tempo boost. The fact that acts as both disruption and protection makes it, in my mind, an ideal fit for a deck like Survival.
So I went back to the drawing board again. Obviously, I wasn't happy with the NQS-style, blue-heavy lists. Counterbalance isn't my cup of tea on turn 2 in a deck with Survival and Tarmogoyf, and Force of Will blows compared to Cabal Therapy in an aggressive deck. But I wanted Stifle. So I looked at my GBWr deck, and thought what I could do to make it better against combo. I was going to settle on boarding Orim's Chant until I realized Stifle fulfills that role perfectly, but it also has all the laurels mentioned above. So, I went to see what my deck would be like if I cut white and added blue, and this is what I came up with:
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Stifle
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Quirion Ranger
2 Eternal Witness
2 Shriekmaw
1 Fire Imp
1 Gilded Drake
1 Masticore
1 Trygon Predator
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Spike Feeder
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
4 Forest
Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Engineered Plague
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Null Rod
2 Extirpate
Here are the changes from the lists:
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Harmonic Sliver
-1 Darkheart Sliver
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Magus of the Moon
+3 Stifle
+1 Tradewind Rider
+1 Gilded Drake
+1 Trygon Predator
+1 Tin Street Hooligan
+1 Spike Feeder
I won my local yesterday with this going 3-1 in the swiss, beating Goblins, UGW Threshold, and Tombstone, and losing to Tombstone being stuck g2 and g3 with Survival in play and not drawing a creature for a combined 7 turns. But then in top4 I beat UGW Threshold and konsultant playing Tombstone again. This list performed much, much smoother with the new changes as opposed to the white version. With Stifle and Tradewind Rider, I now have disruption on the opponent's manabase, and can protect my own better. My combo matchup is wayyy better now, as I have a better chance of winning game 1, and post-board I can hit their win conditions, Burning Wishes, Rite of Flames, etc, and Null Rod is still there. Blast also makes up for the loss of StP against Goblins, and happens to be the nut against Goyf Sligh/bad red decks should I see it. My Goblins matchup is actually a lot better now without StP. Post-board, between BEB, Engineered Plague, Stifle, and the fact that all my creatures are either bigger than theirs or kill theirs, it's nearly impossible to lose. Tradewind Rider won only a single game by itself, because it was either FoW'd or killed before I could abuse it, because it was always game-breaking. It also happens to be insane anti-Counterbalance tech. Gilded Drake was absolutely insane. I took Mystic Enforcers and smashed, I took Doran and smashed, and I took Tombstalkers and smashed. It was ridiculous. Trygon Predator was nuts. Tin Street ate Vials and Shackles quickly, and I wasn't ever in a position that I needed Spike Feeder. I cut the 2nd Magus of the Moon because I added another nonbasic and didn't want to randomly fuck myself over with them.
So, yeah. That's what I've done over the past week: I allegedly made my combo matchup better. Thoughts?
I was intrigued by the blue splashes in Survival as well, but I didn't think about putting Tradewind back in the deck. I was thinking more along the line of Wonder. Without having Seedborn Muse in the deck, Di, how effective was the one Tradewind? Would/could Wonder take that spot instead?
Ninja edit:I suppose grabbing Gilded Drake and bouncing it back (every turn)isn't so bad...
The Tradewind slot is moreso personal preference, but I really like the fact that it can control the board by itself. It doesn't need Seedborn Muse to be effective, but Quirion Ranger certainly makes it better. I just really like the fact that it is constant removal that has the benefit of attacking an opponent's manabase, and also happens to be good with the high amount of 187 creatures in the deck. When I wasn't playing blue, almost every round I played I wanted a means of hitting the opponent's manabase, and almost put Orcish Settlers in the deck on like 10 occasions because of that. Tradewind solves it, while at the same time keeps everything else in check.
I personally don't care for Wonder because it doesn't actually do anything. I have enough removal in the deck that blockers aren't that much of an issue, much less is flying.
I really find the goblin matchup pretty hard with blue. How did that matchup go for you?
Post-board, my deck looks something like this:
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Stifle
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
2 Shriekmaw
1 Fire Imp
1 Masticore
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Spike Feeder
or, changes:
+3 BEB
+3 Engineered Plague
-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Tradewind Rider
-1 Gilded Drake
-1 Magus of the Moon
-1 Trygon Predator
-1 Eternal Witness
Game 1 I have nearly as many tools. I still have a lot of removal, and I lose StP to kill things, but now have Stifle for Wasteland, Ringleader, Matron, and SCG. That's arguably much better. Now look at the decklist. With a busted engine in SotF, some discard left, Stifle, BEB, E Plague, 8 creatures that are bigger than all of theirs, 4 additional creature-based removal, Vial removal, and emergency life gain, do you honestly believe I have a bad matchup in Goblins? Blue gives you a lot more against the deck than white does.
I feel I should drop this list in the thread. It made top 8 in a 48-player tournament and is hella cool to boot:
4 GR fetch
2 BR fetch
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Chrome Mox
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Mongrel
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Reckless Wurm
4 Basking Rootwalla
1 Genesis
1 Squee
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Shriekmaw
1 Anger
4 Zombie Infestation
4 Survival
3 Fiery Temper
3 Destructive Flow
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Terminate
SB:
4 Plague
2 Krosan GRip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Terminate
3 Chalice
3 Thorn of Amethyst
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
5 [A] Forest (1)
4 [A] Taiga
4 [A] Bayou
// Creatures
1 [UD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
1 [JU] Anger
1 [JU] Genesis
2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [PS] Flame Tongue Kavu
1 [PLC] Big Game Hunter
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
4 [A] Birds of Paradise
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [SH] Spike Feeder
// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [5E] Tsunami
SB: 1 [MI] Seeds of Innocence
SB: 1 [TO] Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [R] Regrowth
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 [PLC] Rough/Tumble
SB: 1 [A] Tranquility
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
I ran this list at a 50 man tournament in virginia on saturday. I went 4-0-2, then got knocked out in the top 8 by Enchantress.
my only changes would be Masticore instead of Kavu, and stomphowler instead of the 2nd shriekmaw.
Angry Trygon Predator sounds so good!
God damn you, fetchlands, rotate from extended already. :<
Do you think the few extras that the red splash gives you are worth the inconsistency of a 4c manabase?
Anger is obviously the main reason to splash, and it is a good reason, but how much better is Hooligan than another Predator?
Likewise, I'm sure Fire Imp could find a suitable replacement in another Shriekmaw ,Big Game Hunter, or even Man O War.
Magus could either be good or bad, not sure, but as a one of that is pretty much meant to be tutored for, it seems kind of crappy after turn3.
Four color manabases for Survival don't have to be terrible. I've been running GBrw for a while now, and I actually cut down on the total number of Duals I've been using to do it.
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Quirion Rangers
...
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
4 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
One Forest can become a Savannah if you plan on running a heavier white splash than I am (Swords, 1 Harmonic Sliver, 1 Heirarch). Notice the seven basic lands, combined with 8 fetchlands. Losing to decks like Dragon Stompy or Moon Thresh is a terrible plan, so don't.
No Goyf? /boggle :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
I'm not exactly sure what numbers of cards to replace, but it seems very likely that some combination resulting in -4 cards from the deck posted and +4 Tarmogoyf would make it a better deck. What was the logic behind not including him?
I guess it would make for a pretty funny mind games for your opponent to be holding counters or swords for him, or Cabal Therapy after seeing a green source and missing or Meddling Mage, but beyond that, I'm lost.
I was looking at that decklist too. It was interesting to say the least. My only quirk about it was the fact that there was only 16(!) lands even with BoP and Chrome Mox. Aggressive builds of D. Flow ran at least 20 in Extended. And everybody knows how many hungry Survival tends to be. When I was goldfishing a couple hands, I didn't like the Arrogant Wurm and company either. However, one thing I really do like about the deck is being able to discard Genesis, Squee, and Anger for a powerful effect without a Survival in play. I'm still not sold on the Zombie Infestation though. Playing Infestation and discarding 2 cards, to get a zombie token (madness or no madness) doesn't seem that hot. If I were to play the deck, I would definitely try to make some room for Therapies.
i really see no reason in splashing for blue under any circumstances. counter-top only dilutes your game plan, and leaves you open to land destruction. the whole point of the deck is to be an aggressive deck that can force down too many threats for your opponent too deal with. most of the games i have won were without a survival ever hitting play. becoming a counter-top deck turns you into the defensive deck, something that is a worst case scenario for this deck.
I think I can finally go to 2 colors, Black and Green:
Fulminator Mage :1::br::br:
Creature - Elemental Shaman
Sacrifice Fulminator Mage: Destroy target nonbasic land.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...1207195379.jpg
I was always hanging onto red for Magus of the Moon.
I'll be going back to AEther Vial too. He hardest part now is artifact and enchantment answers, do you think Viridian Zealot is good enough?
That card doesn't seem good to me. For the same cost I can cast Magus, and at least that has a lasting effect on the game. I guess you could get one every turn and lock them out, much like Crucible waste, but that's 4 mana a turn. Not so hot imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by mnellsae
Magus of the Moon always seemed too symmetrical in 3 or 4 color survival. With Fulminator Mage, you probably only have to get him on the board once or twice to really change the game state, and his effect is much more one-sided (of course, I guess he's more prone to Stifle). If you can get an AEther Vial down, you can recur him with Genesis for 3 mana a turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
Only testing will tell.