[Deck] Belcher

Recently at my local tournament I made it to the top 4 out of 23 people and we all split. Here is my list:

3x Spoils of the Vault
4x Lotus Petal
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Burning Wish
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Tinder Wall
4x Seething Song
3x Empty the Warrens
1x Taiga
1x Bayou
No kidding, out of 8 games this deck went off no later than turn 2. It was disgusting. Now the reason I post this is because I have a new SB for Belcher and I was curious about people's thoughts.

SB:
1x Reverent Silence
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Pyroclasm
2x Shattering Spree
3x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Tombstalker

I stripped the standard wishboard down to the bare minimum because after a little while of playing the deck, it occurred to me the only things I ever wish for is Empty the Warrens and Shattering Spree. Reverent Silence needs to be there just in case and Pyroclasm is also there just because I think it needs to be (random Gaddock Teeg will show up). But other stuff like Goblin War Strike and Hull Breach .... etc, I think is just nice to have but altogether not necessary. The same with the blast plan. Running 6-8 Red/Pyroblast in the SB really just isn't getting the job done so I thought I would try a drastically different approach to the SB. The Duress and Thoughtseize work VERY well and since I run Cabal Ritual instead of Cantor/Desperate Ritual things work out just fine. As far as sideboarding goes, this is meant strictly for Thresh/Blue Counterbalance control type decks. I take out 4x Burning Wish, 4x LED, 3x Tinder Wall and put in the 3x Duress, 3x Thoughtseize, 4x Tombstalker, and 1x Empty the Warrens. It is quite effective against countertop which gives this deck such a hard time and it is especially nice to have the hand destruction in the combo mirror. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

I stripped the standard wishboard down to the bare minimum because after a little while of playing the deck, it occurred to me the only things I ever wish for is Empty the Warrens and Shattering Spree. Reverent Silence needs to be there just in case and Pyroclasm is also there just because I think it needs to be (random Gaddock Teeg will show up). But other stuff like Goblin War Strike and Hull Breach .... etc, I think is just nice to have but altogether not necessary. The same with the blast plan. Running 6-8 Red/Pyroblast in the SB really just isn't getting the job done so I thought I would try a drastically different approach to the SB. The Duress and Thoughtseize work VERY well and since I run Cabal Ritual instead of Cantor/Desperate Ritual things work out just fine. As far as sideboarding goes, this is meant strictly for Thresh/Blue Counterbalance control type decks. I take out 4x Burning Wish, 4x LED, 3x Tinder Wall and put in the 3x Duress, 3x Thoughtseize, 4x Tombstalker, and 1x Empty the Warrens. It is quite effective against countertop which gives this deck such a hard time and it is especially nice to have the hand destruction in the combo mirror. Thoughts?

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These are very valid points and we should all further address how to shape and tune the sideboard so it looks crisp. Wish targets that are not mandatory carry dead weight. The whole idea behind the structure of the deck is to combo out within the first two turns, and most of the other sideboard options are nice, but they're just obligatory when it comes to trying to win. As all in agreement, these cards are staple in the sideboard (sans Blasts):

Thoughtseize
Shattering Spree
Empty the Warrens
Infernal Tutor
Diminishing Returns
Reverent Silence

Considering this, and the inclusion of 6-8 Blast effects, perhaps taking the sideboard into a new direction that could be more proactive than reactive might be worth a try. At Comix Zone yesterday, myself along with Bigbear and Konsultant shot out the idea of Earthquake or Demonfire. There was even a chuckle to Dry Spell (which, not to be taken seriously, is at worst a semi-decent choice over some of the other dead weight the current board is carrying].

I really feel the sideboard needs a plan of action. It's missing a silver bullet, and bad.

What most people fail to understand is that Belcher is a turn 1 combo deck, if you have to wish for removal, you've already lost. Short of Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns, Cave In and Reverent Silence, I don't think I've ever wished for another SB target, and I can't even remember the last time I wished for Cave In or Referent Silence.

On the other hand, Tendrils of Agony and Ill Gotten Gains are seriously appealing now that Manamorphose gives the deck access to BB.

I LOVE Manamorphose but I am not crazy about it. The thing that scares me about it is that it doesn't add mana, now drawing a card the turn you are going off is amazing in a deck like Belcher, but much like Street Wraith it leaves a lot of very questionable cards you may draw. I am definitely going to test it, probably in the spot of Tinder Wall or Rite of Flame. What spot does everyone think Manamorphose should occupy?

Tendrils of Agony and IGG are not for Belcher, they can be random wish targets and usually work out fine with an LED or 2 in play, but we should certainly keep IGG out of Belcher because this deck's second greatest strength (besides speed) is that it doesn't use the graveyard, and when you start adding in cards like that you make it very vulnerable to even more storm combo hate cards like Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void. Plus, if you start adding in IGG and Tendrils you might as well just play 2x land SI.

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

I LOVE Manamorphose but I am not crazy about it. The thing that scares me about it is that it doesn't add mana, now drawing a card the turn you are going off is amazing in a deck like Belcher, but much like Street Wraith it leaves a lot of very questionable cards you may draw. I am definitely going to test it, probably in the spot of Tinder Wall or Rite of Flame. What spot does everyone think Manamorphose should occupy?

Tendrils of Agony and IGG are not for Belcher, they can be random wish targets and usually work out fine with an LED or 2 in play, but we should certainly keep IGG out of Belcher because this deck's second greatest strength (besides speed) is that it doesn't use the graveyard, and when you start adding in cards like that you make it very vulnerable to even more storm combo hate cards like Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void. Plus, if you start adding in IGG and Tendrils you might as well just play 2x land SI.

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Don't cut Tinder Wall or Right of Flame for Manamorphose, Manamorphose goes into one of the 8 open slots in R/g Belcher or in Wild Cantor's slot in R/g/b Belcher.

Tendrils of Agony and Ill Gotten Gains are fine, if you Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns or Living Wish -> Slithermuse then Burning Wish can grab Tendrils of Agony instead of Empty the Warrens and end the game in a single turn, while Ill Gotten Gains turns a double Burning Wish hand into a guaranteed kill instead of going for an Empty the Warrens or a Diminishing Returns, or it generates storm for a Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens hand while discarding half of the opponent's cards.

If some one sides in GY hate against Belcher because I'm SBing Tendrils of Agony and Ill Gotten Gains, I'll nominate them for a Darwin award.

I am going to go into some detail about the current sideboard and how it can be optimized. I sat down with Fakespam and we discussed in great detail some new choices. Some of these might seem controversial, but there has been an ongoing paradox as to what to include and exclude as it pertains to the sideboard. Understand that the idea here is to gain a different perspective as to how to make the sideboard more proactive than reactive. Because frankly, the mechanics behind most Belcher sideboards are just too reactive (which is really the opposite of the idea. Keeping in mind, you're going to try and combo out as soon as possible. With that said, here are the current sideboard cards which I feel are dead weight:

Goblin War Cry
Target opponent chooses a creature he or she controls. Other creatures he or she controls can't block this turn.

Okay, the only way I can see this card being somewhat useful is when you find yourself in a situation where your opponent has dropped a Moat in play. Assuming you actually get to turn four without killing him/her first, there should be no situation that would warrant a single Burning Wish to deal a minimal amount of damage when your opponent should already be dead with that many tokens on board.

Pyroclasm
Pyroclasm deals 2 damage to each creature.

If you're going to expend a sincere amount of mana looking to off an opposing army without Wishing into a Warrens and making one of your own, you've probably already lost. What sense would it make to waste one of your win conditions by offing a few creatures on your opponents side without dealing any damage to him/her? You only play two land, so you'd ideally waste an additional acceleration component in order to cast this, and for what?It just doesn't add up. The card is great, don't get me wrong, but not here. I've won consistently with the deck for a long while now and I have never once wished for it, ever.

Cave-In
You may remove a red card in your hand from the game rather than pay Cave-In's mana cost. Cave-In deals 2 damage to each creature and each player.

Again, but this time you're putting yourself at card disadvantage to off a few creatures your opponent has at the low cost of three of your own cards. Every bit of acceleration is key. And there should be no excuse dumping another [situational] card in your hand and wasting a Burning Wish to do this. It's just not worth the effort, people.

Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast
Choose one - Counter target spell if it's blue; or destroy target permanent if it's blue.

The truth is, these cards read: Counter a spell if it's name is Force of Will or Stifle. Assuming you're on the draw, you're opponent has already played a land. Let's make no mistake: These cards are great. But the truth is, what is better: Thoughtseize or one of these in your opening grip? I don't think these cards stop Krosan Grip, Extirpate, anything obnoxious, etc. People will argue with me on this, but they are not essential. Again, another slot I feel like I am forced to board in based on lack of options. Thoughtseize is strictly better. Hell, so is Duress. This way you are at least stopping an opponent from doing something before you combo and not mid-stream. You're better off knocking out that card before they decide to use it. Some people play both, and I can understand. But not for me. Belcher's worst matchup is control, but these cards function essentially the same way. It's just one is better, and that's Thoughtseize. Keep in mind: In order for these to be useful, you have to open hand one of them with a kill condition. Too situational. With Thoughtseize game one at least you're putting yourself in a position where you can wish for one.

The 2nd Shattering Spree Theory
There should be no excuse for expending two Burning Wish for this second copy. It is a wasted slot not only in your sideboard, but your main-deck as well. You are rendering Burning Wish a waste as well. Remember, the only way to get a Burning Wish - is by top-decking it. And if you're going to use it on a second Shattering Spree, you've more than likely already lost. One is essential. Two is not.


With all of that being said, I spend a lot of time evaluating cards from older sets all the way until the newest block. These are some choices myself and a few other Sourcers present as efficient and innovative ways to altering what was a reactive, dead-weight sideboard into a more creative and proactive sideboard. I have confidence in these selections as they at least do something.

Dry Spell
Dry Spell deals 1 damage to each creature and each player.

In many games I'm forced to deal with killing an opponent when their life total is so low but followed by a stabilizing blow or stroke of bad luck. This spell knocks off not only creatures, but it deals damage to an opponent as well. This card hits every creature on the board. What's one damage, you say? Just think about all the relevant creatures in the format. Most of their asses are one. And their have been many instances an opponent has seriously gone to one or two life and then you are unable to recover because they've stabilized somehow. It doesn't specifically target an opponent, which is a bonus. It's a black Earthquake for one. 'Nuff said.

Mana Clash
You and target opponent each flip a coin. Mana Clash deals 1 damage to each player whose coin comes up tails. Repeat this process until both players' coins come up heads on the same flip.

I've been there: You're on the ropes and you're hoping for the best possible scenario. We've all been there and know how it feels to lose a pivotal match where you think you can win, but just couldn't. Why give yourself a five to ten percent chance of just staying alive when you can give yourself a seventy five percent chance to win? Okay, I know that's a bit of an exaggeration (somewhat, not totally), but think about it: You're staring down serious damage or a combo-out and maybe you've already hit an opponent and they've stabilized (or maybe not, it's irrelevant). This can be your silver bullet, because guess what: You've just put the game in fate's hands rather than your opponents at the cost of one mana. That sounds very appealing to me - and that's why I'm playing it. It's the coolest alternate win condition ever printed and it's an out when you're staring down a loss.

Goblin Welder
Choose target artifact a player controls and target artifact card in that player's graveyard. If both targets are still legal as this ability resolves, that player sacrifices the artifact in play, then puts the other artifact from his or her graveyard into play.

This guy was actually in the original 'standard' Belcher builds years ago. Who's to say he still doesn't have the juice? He usually milks a Force and he's a one-drop. He turns your artifacts into Belchers or LED's. And guess what: You're opponent is boarding out creature removal games two and three. And if this guy gets active, that can pose a potentially very serious threat to your opponent.

These are some choices which I feel will turn the deck around and make the sideboard a little more proactive than reactive. After all, that is what Belcher should do best, but the way it was written, just wasn't true. Look, the idea is this: If you're wishing for something other than a win condition (whether it be lack of mana acceleration in your hand or whatever), then chances are you are freakin' desperate.

And desperate times call for desperate measures.

Aren't those thought of "you've already lost anyway" overrated? I mean... you can win after trying to go off N times if you haven't actually lost, can't you?


EDIT - I forgot to read something, so I changed my post to something less dumb.

We're referring to the sideboard. If you want to win with a card in your main build, you'll have to top-deck it. With Burning Wish you have outs in your sideboard. And the "you've lost already" theory is not overrated. The longer the game continues, the less chances you have of winning. There's too much heat in the format these days to get away with murder the old-fashioned way. And again, it's a matter of pro-activity vs. re-activity. I want to be able to Wish for something that increases my chances more-so of winning, not staying alive.

Goblin Warstrike is one of the additional SB targets I don't mind using, because Belcher tendrs to draws hands with both a threat and a Burning Wish a lot, and Burning Wish -> Goblin Warstrike turns a dead Burning Wish into a Time Walk for Empty the Warrens at a reasonable mana cost.

Blasts are a lot better than discard in practice, sure discard is better in theory, but the B mana causes it to be prohibitive in a R/g/x deck.

I like Goblin Welder in the SB a lot, he baits Force of Will like a champion.

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Originally Posted by A Legend

I am going to go into some detail about the current sideboard and how it can be optimized. I sat down with Fakespam and we discussed in great detail some new choices. Some of these might seem controversial, but there has been an ongoing paradox as to what to include and exclude as it pertains to the sideboard. Understand that the idea here is to gain a different perspective as to how to make the sideboard more proactive than reactive. Because frankly, the mechanics behind most Belcher sideboards are just too reactive (which is really the opposite of the idea. Keeping in mind, you're going to try and combo out as soon as possible. With that said, here are the current sideboard cards which I feel are dead weight:

Goblin War Cry
Target opponent chooses a creature he or she controls. Other creatures he or she controls can't block this turn.

Dry Spell
Dry Spell deals 1 damage to each creature and each player.

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Goblin War Cry should be Goblin War Strike, and Dry Spell is awful, Cave-In does 2 damage to each creature and player, and is also not awful and in color (black was cut from good lists months and months ago).

Also, have you guys seen the new spell from Shadowmoor Manamorphose? It costs :1: :rg: , add 2 mana of any color combination to your mana pool, draw a card. Its probably better than Cantor, not sure if its better than Street Wraith since this deck doesnt usually need to color fix, just didnt see much discussion on it.

Yes, we did, the general conception is that it's an automatic inclusion. The 2x color fixing is useful for SB wish targets as well.

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

Goblin War Cry should be Goblin War Strike, and Dry Spell is awful, Cave-In does 2 damage to each creature and player, and is also not awful and in color (black was cut from good lists months and months ago).

Also, have you guys seen the new spell from Shadowmoor Manamorphose? It costs :1: :rg: , add 2 mana of any color combination to your mana pool, draw a card. Its probably better than Cantor, not sure if its better than Street Wraith since this deck doesnt usually need to color fix, just didnt see much discussion on it.

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Cave-In is not a good choice. Yeah, it's free. If you're willing to dump another [red] card in your hand. Again, being situational. You have enough acceleration to get whatever color you need. That shouldn't be a problem in a deck STRUCTURED as a mana-producing machine.

And I play black in my list in Syracuse. And I've top 4'ed 9 weeks in a row with it in Syracuse - including the Hadley tournament. Black should never have been cut in the first place with acceleration like Dark Ritual which is an auto-pump into Belcher and use with Infernal Tutor and discard effects. My list runs black - and it's good. That's foolish to assume a good list doesn't run black, when you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

"General consensus" should never dictate over results. And results show that black as a subsidiary of the main two colors has proven time and time again to be critical. Dark Ritual itself has won me more rounds than I can remember. Even Pulp's list runs black. And I'm sure his is consistent as well. Apologies on the name of Goblin War Strike. Sorry I forgot what it's name was - it only sat in my sideboard for the last three months and has dust all over it.

@A Lengend + mana clash

After doing a little bit of math it's not hard to show that the average number of rounds of flips you get from mana class is between three and four. Supposing you were rather lucky and got six rounds of flips (this happens about 23.7% of the time) your oponenet on average would get three heads and three tails, just like you. If you're just looking for a one mana sorcery to do the last few points of damage wouldn't chain lightning be a better option? I think having some reach to wish for is great, and mana clash is cute, but it only will do as much damage as chain lightning less than a quarter of the time.

Sometimes Belcher can just wish for Tendrils if it needs to put the finishing move on the opponent, I've seen a couple people sport that card in their SB for such a purpose, and between that and Cave In there shouldn't be a problem.

I'm not big on Dry Spell or Mana Clash, they seem decidedly bad.

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Originally Posted by A Legend

Cave-In is not a good choice. Yeah, it's free. If you're willing to dump another [red] card in your hand. Again, being situational. You have enough acceleration to get whatever color you need. That shouldn't be a problem in a deck STRUCTURED as a mana-producing machine.

And I play black in my list in Syracuse. And I've top 4'ed 9 weeks in a row with it in Syracuse - including the Hadley tournament. Black should never have been cut in the first place with acceleration like Dark Ritual which is an auto-pump into Belcher and use with Infernal Tutor and discard effects. My list runs black - and it's good. That's foolish to assume a good list doesn't run black, when you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

"General consensus" should never dictate over results. And results show that black as a subsidiary of the main two colors has proven time and time again to be critical. Dark Ritual itself has won me more rounds than I can remember. Even Pulp's list runs black. And I'm sure his is consistent as well. Apologies on the name of Goblin War Strike. Sorry I forgot what it's name was - it only sat in my sideboard for the last three months and has dust all over it.

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Cave-In is also screwed over by Gaddok Teeg, just use good old Pyroclasm.

I've thought of Chain Lightning and it's not bad. It decidedly better than some of the original choices. It's a matter of preference, really. And you shouldn't really use a probability method with Mana Clash, because each flip is separate and there's a 75% chance each time someone will take damage with no variable. If you're going to lose anyways, it's a one-mana out. If there's one better, I'm all for it.

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Originally Posted by Sacearuse

Cave-In is also screwed over by Gaddok Teeg, just use good old Pyroclasm.

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It's not either or, but I find Cave-In is more mana/turn efficient than Pyrocasm a lot of the time, it's not like Belcher has a lot of permanent mana at its disposal, and Cave-In can discard redundant threats to resolve itself.

I don't see Gaddok Teeg enough to care, usually I'm just trying to get rid of a Meddling Mage. Chain Lightning may be better than either Cave-In or Pyroclasm at that rate tho', I actually have no idea why any one plays Pyroclasm.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

I don't see Gaddok Teeg enough to care...

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Absolutely. I rarely see him or Meddling Mage. I think everyone's kind of mulled over Chain Lightning at one point or another. It seems like a feasible choice.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

I actually have no idea why any one plays Pyroclasm.

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Really? What about the TES or Belcher Mirror match? The sort of "I'll make 24 goblins, pass the turn."

Pyroclasm is good.

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Originally Posted by lonelybaritone

Really? What about the TES or Belcher Mirror match? The sort of "I'll make 24 goblins, pass the turn."

Pyroclasm is good.

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In that instance - wouldn't Dry Spell be good? (:cool:)

In all seriousness though, I've never had to really worry about Goblin tokens facing down Goblin tokens. It's basically comes down to evaluating how many Goblins you can make to counter-act their Empty the Warrens. Or you could just try the Belcher out. It's just rare that it happens in the local metagame, but I could advocate either Pyroclasm or Cave-in for a major tournament setting. I really want to say it's good here, but I just haven't used it yet to say it is.