[DTB] Vial Goblins

Has anyone considered Absolute Law as a possible choice for the mirror match with the white splash? Just for reference, here is what it does:

Absolute Law 1W
Enchantment
All creatures have protection from red.

It seems like it would single handedly win the mirror match. Most Goblin players won't be 'boarding in Disenchant for the Mirror... And most won't have white in the deck at all. We have already discussed that the mono-red version has answers for all of this decks problems, yet the Goblin mirror is usually just a coin toss. When the board is stalling, this thing just says "I win, NOW", by forcing in unblockable and unkillable damage. Is it just me or is this a serious option for inclusion?

Any thoughts? Any potential answers? Reasons why AL wouldn't rock?

It wouldn't rock because it gives ALL creatures pro: red. That means your opponents creatures as well. It's basically a win more card because you have to be in the winning position to alpha strike with it, which you can do with Goblin King (who is a goblin) anyway, and it stops you from wiping his board with Shooter and Incinerator, too.

Yeah, in the mirror absolute law is pretty much a fancy goblin king. If you're alpha striking, it doesn't really protect your guys from instant speed damage anyway, as your opponent can just cycle gempalm or activate siege-gang in response. The card has been mentioned before, but mainly as an answer to burn rather than the mirror.

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Originally Posted by scarface

Yeah, in the mirror absolute law is pretty much a fancy goblin king.
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The card has been mentioned before, but mainly as an answer to burn rather than the mirror.

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So if it helps in the burn matchup and can help to win the mirror why not play it?

I assume burn has a good match versus goblins(at least builds with mainboard flamebreak).

If it helps in the burn match and basically does the same thing as goblin king why not play it over goblin king?
(Other than the matron/ringleader counter arguement,I don't see any reason not to).

Because unlike Goblin King, it can't be Vialed out, and is an easy target for removal like Naturalize and Disenchant.

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Originally Posted by Dyne2047

Because unlike Goblin King, it [...] is an easy target for removal like Naturalize and Disenchant.

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Good Goblins players would never side in Naturalize/Disenchant for the mirror, so that point is moot. Goblin King does have the advantage of being Vial-able, that you mentioned, and he's also tutorable with Goblin Matron.

Having said that, the turn you play the Absolute Law you can safely alpha strike without fear of your opponent ruining your plan by burning your King, for example...

I do agree that King is the better choice, mostly because you can Matron for it and Vial it out as needed.

Luis

Actually, I've done that before; Vial superiority is so key in the matchup that I dumped Prospectors for Naturalizes in Extended season. I wouldn't expect to run into it, but if your opponent is playing Prospector they might indeed ditch them for Naturalize.

There's still the issue where King is like, a Goblin, and thus Matron-able and you can flop it off a Ringleader, but the point is rather moot as the alpha strike situation isn't one that should really be happening.

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Originally Posted by frogboy

Vial superiority is so key in the matchup

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Good post. I also found vial or no vial a critical parameter to possibly loose or gain tempo.

Would it justify to play one goblin tinkerer in the mirror?

How do you guys see Jitte perform in the mirror? I see a lot controversy statements about it.

I haven't tested the jitte in the mirror, but I imagine that it would help as long as you started getting counters early enough. Of course, it can seriously kill your tempo, so it might not be the best answer.

How about Simoon for the mirror? Right now, there is little reason to favor one splash over the other (white vs green), so this card would be very playable if it turned out to be helpful. Here's the card for reference:

Simoon RG
Instant
Simoon deals 1 damage to each creature target opponent controls.

It's very good that many of you are discussing the mirror as of now. I don't see Goblins getting any less popular at this point, and not to expect mirror games causes you to lose relevent advantage. And though I'm not sure if Simoon is the answer as of now, this subject should be widely debated, especially with the growing number of players.

The correct way to play the mirror is to board in shard pheonix and disenchant if you have vial at 5 and 3 red mana you can be attacked. The disenchants provide a way for you to break the same strategy if used by opponent.

I've tested alot of other options but this is the best in my experience.

@Ginu

Ok shard phoenix is not all that good in the mirror and having to vial it doesnt make it better yes it does kill all their creatures but hey guess what it kills yours too.
And if you have to wait six turns to get a vial to 5 counters just so you can play wrath of god you are probably going to lose.
And yes i know the phoenix can recur so what you pay 3 red and get a 2/2 flyer.
If you really feel like killing all gobs why not jsut play pyromancer at least youll get to alpha strike sneak in maybe 6 damage to boot oh almost forgot its a GOBLIN. that almost makes it have synergy.

For the mirror there really isnt a good tactic you can use everything is too symetrical ex:(goblin king, absolute law, etc..)

Moral: Shard Phoenix is not good

Why not use the white splash in the sideboard and get Honorable Passage for the mirror match?

It turns their alpha strike into instant death.

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Why not use the white splash in the sideboard and get Honorable Passage for the mirror match?

It turns their alpha strike into instant death.

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Mostly because it doesn't work unless their Piledriver has power greater than or equal to their current life total.

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Originally Posted by frogboy

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Why not use the white splash in the sideboard and get Honorable Passage for the mirror match?

It turns their alpha strike into instant death.

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Mostly because it doesn't work unless their Piledriver has power greater than or equal to their current life total.

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Ah, I think I understand. Since it would only win the game on rare occassion, it isn't good because it doesn't affect the board position?

But since the Vial Goblins mirror is a gigantic race, wouldn't that be a large tempo swing?

Since the Goblins mirror isn't a gigantic race, no, it wouldn't. Passage can't even kill creatures.

I've said this repeatedly

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the Goblin mirror is all about card advantage and maximizing your mana, and the person who gains control is probably going to win barring unusual circumstances. ...typically the board doesn't get clogged with all the Fanatics, Incinerators, Pyromancers, Sharpshooters, SGCs, and occasionally combat running around.

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@Icemyn: Several pros like shard pheonix. Yes its symetrical but you know it's comming. Don't believe me, just ask Gerry Thompson. You know him; The guy you all ripped your lists off of after he got it posted on Wizards.com. It will make it so you never take a point of damage ever again from the other player. That seems good to me. Have you tested it? What basis do you have for your statement? Seems like if you can give your guys haste and throw some p-diddys on the table you should win after controlling the board for a few turns like the pheonix will. And its also not like you sit there doing nothing while the vial ramps up. You can cast the phonix and other guys. You will win because he can never put an offense together.

Flame edited out---Frogboy

Pyromancer - 1 shot wrath to get some extra damage in (maybe) or a lock of the board? Id take the lock.

Without this you reduce the mirror to a coin flip. How do you expect to even get to day 2 at the GP with a large portion of your matches being toss-ups. Have fun watching from the spectator section.

Moral: Shard pheonix, hefty, hefty, hefty. Pyromancer, wimpy, wimpy, wimpy.



Edited By frogboy on 1129563600

For the record, mass removal has historically been a potent way to win the goblin mirror. Typically in onslaught block the mirror was dominated by the Starstorm/Rorix sideboard plan, where you clear the board by slow-rolling your guys and finish with Rorix. There are quite a few problems with pyromancer being the go-to mirror target, as if they can kill it before the turn is through, his EOT ability will not trigger. Personally, I like phoenix more as it is a recursible win condition and mass removal target that can't be stopped once he's in play. This does not mean I would not play 1 pyromancer as he is good in many situations, but I think relying on him to win the mirror is not the best way to go.

However, another card that tended to win the mirror match in extended was Arc-Slogger out of the board. Would this be a better card to get out in the mid-game? Assuming you'll get 3 to 4 shocks out of him, he seems like a pretty powerful way to win the attrition war by removing key goblins from the other side of the table while leaving yours untouched and by providing a large body that is going to be very hard to kill with damage.

@ cpt_ginu: If you had a little less trust in pro players knowing everything (I know what I'm talking about; I am one myself) you might have noticed that this thread has been around for quite a bit longer than Garry Thompson's list was posted at Wizards, and had you read the whole thread you would know that the pro himself got a lot a lot of ideas from the major "scrubs" at this here site! So if you wish to share your insight in things Magic-wise (and you might be correct arguing for shard phoenix) then please do so!

Flames deleted---Frogboy



Edited By frogboy on 1129563689

The Goblin mirror tends to revolve around Sharpshooter superiority to maintain board control and playing the control deck and just running your opponent out of cards, at which point you just kill him. I actually havn't tested Shard Phoenix yet. It could be completely insane; even without Vial Pyromancer is pretty ridiculous, and Phoenix is actually better in that particular case. It's not like you just sit there for five turns, either; you can do the whole Gempalm and Sharpshooter thing too. I have doubts about it's non-Goblin nature because of Ringleader, and I'm wary of what happens if you don't have Vial and miss some land drops or are under a Port or something. It is, however, something I'll look at.

Edit: Slogger out of the board was terrible in Extended. Slogger's not a Goblin, costs five, and actually takes mana to use his ability, which you can't reuse infinitely. Phoenix seems strictly better. I should probably also point out that mass removal wasn't used during Extended season, either. Mirror strategy revolved around Sparksmith/Sharpshooter/Gempalm/Fanatic control.



Edited By frogboy on 1129563788