[DTB] U/G/x Thresh - a.k.a. Not Quite Gro, SuperGro

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Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man

I don't agree that Spring Tide is a very easy matchup for Gro, and if you found it such, than the Spring Tide player wasn't a very good player. I've played Gro several times, and I've found that Spring Tide has a heavy advantage in the matchup. Just like Solidarity, Spring Tide can go off through two or three permission spells, and Gro can't muster anything more than that on their second or third turns. After board Defense Grid comes in to kick your ass. If that resolves the game is over, and even if it doesn't you've wasted one or two permission spells, and it becomes simple to go off next turn.

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I don't understand how this could be. All the testing we have done against Solidarity and Springtide has shown a 70-30 or better matchup pre-board (to be fair, most of the testing was against solidarity). SpringTide should be an even easier matchup since the creature removal becomes relevant. Not to mention that SpringTide can't go off in response to lethal damage or in response to a crucial spell.

Regarind defense grid:
One game against Anwar playing SpringTide he drew 3 Grids and I still won that game. It happened exacly the way you said, I used my permision spells, 3 hard counters out of 7 on them. The second grid resolved and i was still able to beat him because I bolted a snaped creature. I don't know where you got your info, but SpringTide does not have the advantage. You could argue that it has better post board game than Solidarity but not that its favored.

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You're confusing Solidarity and Spring Tide a lot here. The matchups are a lot different for Gro. Solidarity can't go off until turn 4, ever, and often it doesn't go off until turn 5 or 6. By that point you've got a threat or two on the board and counters in hand. Spring Tide can go off as early as turn 2, and highly consistantly on turn 3. It can't whether quite as many counterspells as Solidarity, but on your first or second turn, when Spring Tide goes off, you'll only have one or two counters and Tide can easily play around that. Grid from the board is just another must counter, and if it resolves you've lost.

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Never in my life have I seen SpingTide successfully go off turn two in tournament play. By going off turn two you open yourself up to a plethora highly effective countermagic, including Daze for god's sake. Swords or Bolt wreck you, and since you have to play a High Tide Counterspell is relevant. Are you honestly saying that you have the capablility of beating through disruption going off turn 2? Maybe I'm mistaken, and if so I appoligize, but have you ever tried going off that early agianst grow before (red or white) and did so successfully?

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What do people think of the 4 color list? I know some people trying to scrap up a list for it. What would be some pros and cons to it?

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Umm versitility is a big bonus I think, I would argue that in a varied metagame a 4 color list might have the advantage over the three color lists. What worries me about the Lille winning list is the inability to deal with the huge fatties of the format. Burn is really bad against Enforcer and Dragon and some of the other larger creatures. A 4 color list like the one in Lille make me wonder what he was metagaming against. Mage isn't all that amazing in the mirror match nor is it an efficient creature against the aggro decks. That is the only downfall I can see, running burn and mages leave you vulnerable to fat.

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

I don't understand how this could be. All the testing we have done against Solidarity and Springtide has shown a 70-30 or better matchup pre-board (to be fair, most of the testing was against solidarity). SpringTide should be an even easier matchup since the creature removal becomes relevant. Not to mention that SpringTide can't go off in response to lethal damage or in response to a crucial spell.

Regarind defense grid:
One game against Anwar playing SpringTide he drew 3 Grids and I still won that game. It happened exacly the way you said, I used my permision spells, 3 hard counters out of 7 on them. The second grid resolved and i was still able to beat him because I bolted a snaped creature. I don't know where you got your info, but SpringTide does not have the advantage. You could argue that it has better post board game than Solidarity but not that its favored.

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Just to clarify a little bit the game that you were discussing did involve me drawing 2 Defense Grids one of which resolved and the second didn't. You are correct that bolting your own Werebear (no Threshold) so that I could not use Snap as my untap method prevented me from continuing the combo and thus costing me the game. But I have to agree here with Happy Gilmore that while Spring Tide may have a better post-board game against Gro, the matchup is not very favorable pre-board and post-board is still difficult. Defense Grid does help in that it like a must-counter but that doesn't mean that you will be able to go off through their counterwall especially if Grid hasn't resolved.

I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but you said "3 hard counters out of 7"... that's either telling me that you played 3 hard counters and 4 Daze, or just that among the counters you cast, 3 of them were hard.

This makes me wonder how good the Spring Tide player you were playing against was. That he waited long enough for you to be able to resolve 7 counters is a huge problem. The reason Spring Tide has a better matchup than Solidarity vs. Gro isn't just the Defense Grids, it's the speed and consistancy. One to two turns makes a world of difference. It is true that your creature removal becomes relevant, but I would still say that the matchup isn't as bad as you say it is.

If I said it was positive for Spring Tide, I retract that statment, because it certainly isn't, but in my testing it has been much closer to 50/50 than you've said. The trick is to press your advantage and go off as soon as you possibly can. Sometimes they'll have the double daze, double Force hand, but otherwise you should usually be fine. Often I've let a counter war ensue over High Tide, passed the turn, untapped and won with a Merchant Scroll or another Tide.

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Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man

I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but you said "3 hard counters out of 7"... that's either telling me that you played 3 hard counters and 4 Daze, or just that among the counters you cast, 3 of them were hard.

This makes me wonder how good the Spring Tide player you were playing against was. That he waited long enough for you to be able to resolve 7 counters is a huge problem. The reason Spring Tide has a better matchup than Solidarity vs. Gro isn't just the Defense Grids, it's the speed and consistancy. One to two turns makes a world of difference. It is true that your creature removal becomes relevant, but I would still say that the matchup isn't as bad as you say it is.

If I said it was positive for Spring Tide, I retract that statment, because it certainly isn't, but in my testing it has been much closer to 50/50 than you've said. The trick is to press your advantage and go off as soon as you possibly can. Sometimes they'll have the double daze, double Force hand, but otherwise you should usually be fine. Often I've let a counter war ensue over High Tide, passed the turn, untapped and won with a Merchant Scroll or another Tide.

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You're kidding right? In the first 2-3 turns gro has gone through almost 11 cards. The deck will find dazes and forces to mess up spring tide. Spring tide is even a better match-up for gro then solidarity is, atleast solidarity can consistantly win through counters springtide can't especially turns 2-3 like you have been saying. Soldarity is 60/40 for gro, so springtide is more than likey 65/35 or 70/30, It's a highly positive match-up. So for you're calling Anwar a bad player? You need to quit calling people bad players. Thats 3 times in the last 3 pages, that you have called someones testing in accurate because of playskill. I've never seen your name in a top 4 or 8. So calm down a little bit on that.

I agree with wastedlife. Solidarity has never been a good match-up gro. Have you ever tested the Gro VS Springtide match-up Lego. Please don't insult people that are better than you.
I also disagree with the statement that springtide is a better match-up for gro than solidarity. Because of Deep6ers new list I have ssen a great improvement in the list. Because of remand he can survive more counterspells,and peek allows the solidarity player to play around all the counterspells the gro player may have.

Sorry for my misrepresentation of your post wastedlife.
Agains sorry for all the grammatical errors.

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Originally Posted by calosso

I agree with wastedlife. Solidarity has never been a good match-up gro. Lego what relevant testing have you done with either deck. You are trying to tell everyone that springtide/solidarity can beat gro more than 50% of the time. How many games have you tested the match-up. Please prove all of us wrong and all the relevant testing people have done. Please be more specific Lego Army Man.

Sorry one and all for the Bad grammer.

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I said it was a positive match-up as in 60/40 Gro's favor.

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Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man

I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but you said "3 hard counters out of 7"... that's either telling me that you played 3 hard counters and 4 Daze, or just that among the counters you cast, 3 of them were hard.

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If I had to guess (and I don't, because I have mastered the English Language), I would say he meant he cast 3 Hard Counters in the game, out of the 7 hard counters in the deck. Those being 4 Fow, 2/3 Counterspell, and 0/1 D Shoal. As for the matchup, I actually think UGr has a harder time than UGw, but even so, It's pretty much what you want to face all day. Gro is the essence of aggro-control, the archetype which was developed to smash Combo's head in. Your choice is to go off quickly and lose to Daze, or to go off slowly and lose to Werebear.

If you're having a lot of difficulty in the matchup, it's time to re-evaluate your testing partner's, and your own playskill.

On another note, is this going to be another FEB/Wombat debate?

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Just to clarify a little bit the game that you were discussing did involve me drawing 2 Defense Grids one of which resolved and the second didn't. You are correct that bolting your own Werebear (no Threshold) so that I could not use Snap as my untap method prevented me from continuing the combo and thus costing me the game. But I have to agree here with Happy Gilmore that while Spring Tide may have a better post-board game against Gro, the matchup is not very favorable pre-board and post-board is still difficult. Defense Grid does help in that it like a must-counter but that doesn't mean that you will be able to go off through their counterwall especially if Grid hasn't resolved.

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Thanks Anwar for clarifying that. The example aside, Tide based combo is most definitly a positive matchup for grow.

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I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but you said "3 hard counters out of 7"... that's either telling me that you played 3 hard counters and 4 Daze, or just that among the counters you cast, 3 of them were hard.

This makes me wonder how good the Spring Tide player you were playing against was. That he waited long enough for you to be able to resolve 7 counters is a huge problem. The reason Spring Tide has a better matchup than Solidarity vs. Gro isn't just the Defense Grids, it's the speed and consistancy. One to two turns makes a world of difference. It is true that your creature removal becomes relevant, but I would still say that the matchup isn't as bad as you say it is.

If I said it was positive for Spring Tide, I retract that statment, because it certainly isn't, but in my testing it has been much closer to 50/50 than you've said. The trick is to press your advantage and go off as soon as you possibly can. Sometimes they'll have the double daze, double Force hand, but otherwise you should usually be fine. Often I've let a counter war ensue over High Tide, passed the turn, untapped and won with a Merchant Scroll or another Tide.

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Now I am really confused. First off, when I say hard counter I mean "unconditional" such as counterspell. The reason Anwar did not go off early, as I understand it, is that he was looking for a hightide or a scroll to find the hightide.

You mention that in order to win against grow you have to go off very quickly. In order to do so requires an extremely specific hand, consisting of atleast one untap affect, one substancial draw effect, and one high Tide. And if you are facing disruption you need either a force of will or reduncancy up the wazu. And besides, your chances of going off turn two can't be very good at all. That requires a very very specific set of cards. And even then you might fizzle. Going off on the second turn leaves you extremely vulnerable to creature removal on the CoFs as well.


To be honest I think this thread has gotten a little off track. What I think should really be discussed is how to best prepare for the Dual for Duals. What build is best? red? white? black even? Whats the SB Tech in the mirror? Do we agree on MD Pithing Needles?

Here is the list of UGr Grow that I plan on bringing to the Dual for Duals:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon

4 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visons
3 Portent

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyroclasm
3 Pithing Needle

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze

4 Volcanic
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

SB:
3 Naturalize
3 Phantom Centaur
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Winter orb
3 Pyroclasm

The Creature base should be self explanitory. The Sea Drakes were removed because they are absolutely shit in the mirror match.

The draw Contingent:
I am a real big fan of Predict and draw in general. Mental Note gets to threshold quick but that isn't the rout I wanted to take. Running 11 1cc cantrips that can successfully find lands on turn 1 is key.

Non-counter disruption:
The Bolts are the best red can offer in 1cc removal. Bolt gives me more answers to a turn 1 lacky, a meta call to be sure but a neccessary one.

The one maindeck Pyroclasm is a personal preference. When all was said and done I had one slot left over. I chose Pyroclasm over Jet and Fire/Ice because it freed up the sb somewhat. I could be running 8 removal spells but I wanted to run the Pithing Needles instead.

Pithing Needle has done nothing but impress me since it made its way into the main. Every matchup I felt I was suffering was miraculously better. Much much better. Goblins, Wombat, Landstill, Salvager, ATS, RGSA all improved in varying amounts.

Counterspells:
No changes here other than running 3 counterspells.

Manabase:
This is about as stable as possible. The two and two set up is so I don't get shafted by Pithing Needle as much. A very minor point but since it doesn't hurt the deck why not.

Disclaimer: Most of the maindeck was designed by Jesse and Alix Hatfield, so I won't take the credit for it. Thanks guys :smile: .

I wanted a SB for every situation, we (The Frogers) have tested many different configurations and are still testing them.

Against agro:
Pyroclasm (Goblins/Other agro deck when needed)
Phantom Centaur (Multicolor Agro/Angel Stompy/ Random agro)
Naturalize (if needed)

Against Control:
Naturalize (Wombat/ Landstill/NoStick)
Winter Orb (Wombat/ Landstill/Jack Black/NoStick/etc.)

The Mirror:
3 Crypt
3 Phantom Centaur

Against Combo:
Crypt
Naturalize

Every slot is debatable, I hope. Which is the purpose of posting the list. I do want to point out one thing though. Phantom Centaur is really good at filling in the gaps. It kills 1-3 creatures in the grow mirror before it dies (sans Swords), is a huge roadblock against random agro, a 4/4 under Humillity, and another card that can nullify Jitte (oh yea, damage is prevented sucker :cry: ).

Plz discuss.

People, are we talking about matchups?

I am to do something that I don't normally do, and that is talk about the evil enemy in Grow, particularly G/U/W version of Grow.

In my testing I have developed this particular decklist:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Health
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Wearbear
3 Meddling Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
2 Mystic Enforcer

I've been considering cutting the AK's in the deck and replace them with mental note. Other than that I believe the list is solid.

I believe the Goblins matchup for this version is 55/45 game 1 and then 60/40 post sideboard in games 2 and 3.
Solardity is and easier matchup for the fact that I run Meddling Mage which is very bad for them. 60/40 game 1, 65/35 games 2 and 3.
Affinity since I play the deck, is an unfavorable matchup in game one, say 45/55, then it becomes about 50/50 in games 2 and 3.
RGSA, is a positive matchup for the fact you have mage maindeck and pithing needles to bring in sideboard. 60/40 ratio of win/loss in this match.

I'm not even going to meantine spring tide, because its just a great matchup in general. I do believe in playtesting, but what good is it if your testing against bad decks or bad partners.

Time to time I heard that I know what I'm talking about.

One of my quotes:

"What, these are cards?"

I'm not calling people bad, I'm just saying that maybe they don't have a lot of experience with the deck, which can be key. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I see Gro as a much better matchup for Tide than you do, and Spring Tide has had a better matchup every time I've tried it. That's why I play it over Solidarity.

As for not seeing my name in T8s, that's because A) You're not checking and B) I've lived in Italy for the past year (refer to A) The metagame isn't amazing there, but I never finished lower than 2nd place, including the 100+ people tournaments. This really isn't the place to talk about this though, I just didn't appreciate being called an idiot. We have differences in testing, and I'm not sure why that is, but it'll have to stay that way. I'll probably come back in a couple of weeks and retract my statement, but until then, let's just agree to move on.

As for actual discussion, are you guys going to bring the White Splash or the Red Splash to the D4D? I would assume that the White Splash has a better overall matchup, taking Combo and Control better, but that the Red Splash is more easily able to handle jank. I'm not sure if that assessment is correct though, what does everything think?

I'm sorry, but T8's do not mean your a good player. You have to focus on the megagame and the quality of players that play there. Another thing, is it me or does Lego Army Man think he is a master at any deck under discussion? Weren't you the one with the whole Lava Dart thing? Enough said there.

Please post with actual insight into the deck construction or actual advise on matchups than ramble. I believe the white splash is better, but I haven't tested enough to know for sure. When will people stop playing spring tide, it isn't as good.

Why doesn't Lego Man come here to syracuse and we can show them what a real megagame is all about?

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Originally Posted by thenick2000

Why doesn't Lego Man come here to syracuse and we can show them what a real megagame is all about?

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Because our metagame sucks too.

The White splash is better suited for an unknown meta, as it has answers for random crap (see: combo). The red splash is probably the better deck for a known meta where you know your matchups and how each player plays. It also has (if you're running Wastedlife's build) the better mirror match.

I don't claim to be a master of any decks, let alone every deck. There are hundreds of people who have more knowledge of this format than I do. The difference between my "random testing" and other people posts are that I do testing, where a lot of people don't. If I had a car, I'd come to Syracuse any day and smash you guys. I wouldn't call what you have a "Real Metagame"

As for the splash, I've been running White because I love Meddling Mage, but I think it does suffer in the mirror match. I find a lot of times Worship can win, because people aren't playing Enchantment hate in great numbers these days, but it's possible to lose before that ever resolves. If White had a better mirror match, I think it would be the better choice, but right now I'm not so sure.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare

Because our metagame sucks too.

The White splash is better suited for an unknown meta, as it has answers for random crap (see: combo). The red splash is probably the better deck for a known meta where you know your matchups and how each player plays. It also has (if you're running Wastedlife's build) the better mirror match.

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That comment confuses me. Could you go into a little more detail on why the mirror match is positive for wastedlife's build of UGr? In all my experience so far, the mirror has been about creatures, so removal that trades one-for-one with your opponent's and draw spells that find more of your own would seem superior to burn spells. I'll try to test it when I get the chance, but an explanation would be helpful.

(However, I will say that if any build that is better against the mirror and against Goblins, it is definitely the better choice for an unknown meta.)

It's simple really. He runs a ton of burn. Any time we played, he was able to win the damage race, because he greatly ignored me, and sent flames at my head. It's funny, his deck is basically Counter-Burn, with a splash for green creatures that are better than Jackal Pup and Lavamancer. His creatures traded with mine, and Swords only put me further behind. This happenned in many games, so I feel like his build is better suited for the mirror than mine. As for the unknown meta vs. Goblins and the mirror, well, if you expect a lot of Goblins and the mirror, then the meta isn't really unknown. The fact is, Mage and Needle clean up a lot of dirt, and Worship from the board solves a TON of problems. These are advantages (assuming MD Needles) that the red build doesn't have.

Wait, didn't we already spend a page talking about how the UGr can run Needles? Also, I think its combo and control matchups tend to be better than people expect. REB is really good.

But I will test out that build and see if it goes the same way. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Mad Zur

Wait, didn't we already spend a page talking about how the UGr can run Needles? Also, I think its combo and control matchups tend to be better than people expect. REB is really good.

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QFT. The main thing is that UGw has a better pre-board game against some combo. If you know your meta, red has most the options it needs to deal with any combo it needs to with the board.

As for the MD Needles, that's certainly a metagame call. Like I said though, if the main reason you're running it is for Goblins, I wouldn't bother. They should definitely be in the board at least, but for goblins, 10-12 Burn spells is all you really need to have a decent game against them. Bring in Pyroclasm from the board, and it's strongly favorable, in my experience.

I've been running something very similar to wastedlife's build with minor differences to the manabase, favoring Note over Predict, and running only 60 cards. Beyond that, our lists are basically the same. You ought to give it a shot and see how it plays out for you.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare

It's funny, his deck is basically Counter-Burn, with a splash for green creatures that are better than Jackal Pup and Lavamancer.

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You know, the more I think about this, the more it seems true to me. I know there's been a post or two in the N&D about UR gro, but is there any real reason to smash apart your manabase just for the bear and goose? Are there any other red/blue creatures you could run to accomplish the same idea of the deck and not have to run a third color? Particularly, with the advent of the izzet guild, I'm curious to see if there's any merit behind solidifying your manabase and going 2c rather than 3c. The white build doesn't have this luxury, since Enforcer forces you into green.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare

You know, the more I think about this, the more it seems true to me. I know there's been a post or two in the N&D about UR gro, but is there any real reason to smash apart your manabase just for the bear and goose? Are there any other red/blue creatures you could run to accomplish the same idea of the deck and not have to run a third color? Particularly, with the advent of the izzet guild, I'm curious to see if there's any merit behind solidifying your manabase and going 2c rather than 3c. The white build doesn't have this luxury, since Enforcer forces you into green.

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The Wee thingys from Guildpact come to mind. You mentioned yourself, Pup and Mancer. Mancer seems especially good. I'm not sure if this sort of deck will be viable, but it seems that anything that uses the graveyard as a tool, such as Mancer, or is helped by playing spells, such as the Wee shits, seems very strong.

If I felt that the manabase was a significant problem I might be with you on this one, Nightmare... but the bottom line in my mind is that the current formula is working. You have a highly robust ground force that can hold off Goblins and other aggro long enough to establish dominance. Further, you have reusable damage sources that aren't vulnerable to shit like Rune of Protection: Red.

To use an analogy, this is the same reason that 3c Zoo is thriving in the format where Burn is faltering. Reusable damage sources with burn as a finisher is simply more reliable than burn with burn as a finisher.