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Burning Tree Shaman obviously sucks with Sensei's Divining Top, no doubt :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
No, but here in the "european" Metage he proves to be good since there was a lot of Threshold, Landstill and Rifter. He does extradamae without doing anything.
That your Fetchlands will hurt you more won't matter since you only play 6 of them.
Additionaly, he's 3/4 for CC3 and independant from threshold.
Ah, and even now he yould be useful since everyone begins to play SDT.
I did not question your results (sorry if anything sounded that way, but frankly I can't really see what could lead you to that).Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
True, but I don't think it is card advantage that makes the aggro version of UGR-Thresh win against Goblins. With Stifle, we can play UGR-Thresh with an aggro tempo. Its 1cc permits you to cast creatures early on while still being able to disrupt, burn the player, remove opposing creatures, etc. while keeping your opponent on his toes. Stifle has the added bonus that, when playing only 12 cantrips (as opposed to 16 in Zur's list), you can prevent manascrew (and hence not loose tempo) by Stifling Wasteland. With only 12 cantrips, its harder to manage getting UU without having to slow down your business for a turn. Note: I usually side-out my 3 MD Stifles for game 2-3 against Goblins in favor of +1 Needle, +4 Pyroclasm, +2 Ancient Grudge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
It is way better than Counterspell against Cret Belcher (which often puts turn 1 pressure by casting a massive ETW). Since the deck is common in my area, its one good reason I maindeck Stifle. Sure it's not that good against Chalice, but you can side-in Ancient Grudge, K. Grip, EE if you play it (and very few decks play CotV MD in my meta). If reanimator was big in my meta, I'd play UGW-Thresh to have access to StoP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
What I'm saying is that they do not serve exactly the same function, in decks with not exactly the same gameplan; that makes them hard to compare. The answer to the question wether one should want to put more pressure by playing a more aggro role or be more controlish depends on the meta, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
P.S.: When a lot of consistant (and good) tournament results start popping-in about a certain deck, in my book, it's a good indication that something's working right; I agree that it's hard to use that info to narrow its success down to a single card.
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Originally Posted by Liek
Every card in magic can be thought of in terms of card advantage. Stifle cannot answer threats, therefore Stifle is a tempo loss (in this case). If you're using Stifle to counter Wastelands and Fetchlands then it would be both a tempo gain and card parity. Using Stifle for ETW or Tendrils will generate card advantage because of the rituals needed in order make it lethal.
Yes, Stifle is a versatile card. And similar to Stifle, Repeal is also a versatile card which also cantrips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
Repeal can be used as a provisonal solution against Blood Moon (that's why I don't play any Forests), as combat trick thingy and together with Fire/Ice it can help to race the opponent.
But like I sad, in general, in "my" buildup there, you got 3 variable slots. Play whatever you want, if it's Counterspells, Stifle, Repeal, a Shoal, a 4th Daze, whatever.
Dom, I'm not particularly concerned about the debate here, but there is a significant portion of the discussion that I think you're overlooking.
Aether Vial.
Counterspell is slower than Vial, which means at least a third of your countermagic is invalidated by it turn 1. You can't rely simply on having the Needle. If I'm forced into a situation where my Counterspells are invalidated by a Vial, Lackey, or even Wizard, I'd rather have access to a Stifle.
Of course, I don't run red, I don't run Counterspell, and I don't run Stifle. That's just me, though.
Your right, and that is why Stifle was used at some point to help against goblins. If they have an active vial you're still in a losing situation no mater how you dice it. Post board you have more answers to Vial which makes Counterspell better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmare
The discussion began with the claim that Stifle was better than Counterspell in the main. Now whether or not it is better against goblins is debatable. However, my point still stands that Stifle in the MD makes your bad matchups worse and you good matchups better. Negating Goblins altogether I don't think the inclusion is justified for this reason.
This whole argument has gotten out of hand I believe, and before it erupts into an inevitable flame war, one critical point needs to be addressed. We are now playing two different, albeit wielding the same shell, versions of UGr Threshold.
First off we have the age old control version brought to us by the Hatfields. The build sports numerous card quality cantrips, and card advantage drawing power in the form of predict. This build runs significantly less burn spells and threats, and also buckles down for the long haul because of this. To compliment its strategy it runs counterspell, as it does not try to gain significant tempo over an opponent, only counter relevant threats, land one of its own, and beat down until it wins. Here is the build at last count:
Hatfield Threshold
// Lands
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [B] Forest (2)
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [B] Island (2)
// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [JU] Fledgling Dragon
// Spells
3 [NE] Daze
3 [MM] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Predict
3 [FD] Serum Visions
3 [IA] Portent
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 4 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [B] Control Magic
This build has a few notable cards that distinguish it as a control build. First off it opts for a 4cc "Finisher" in the form of Fledgling Dragon. It also chooses to run Counterspell to make sure certain relevant problems never become a real worry. The cantrip base to me is what really makes this deck more controlling. You are running virtually 16 cantripping cards. Two of them (Predict and SDT) really shore up the card advantage needed to win longer games. There is also a notable lack of mental note in these builds, as they are often less concerned with obtaining threshold, than they are just keeping you from generating an advantageous board position.
Now we move on to the newer, and recently successful tempo build of the deck. Here is Paul Nicollo's Top 8 Grand Prix List:
Nicollo Tempo Thresh
// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Forest (2)
1 [B] Island (2)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [PS] Quirion Dryad
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
3 [NE] Daze
3 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [JU] Mental Note
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [FD] Serum Visions
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
Even a beginner could tell these lists should play drastically different (Note I made updates to the main and mana base). This build wants to land a beater as quick as it can, burn out its opponents threats, and gain tempo with its counter magic, most notably Stifle. Stifle is probably one of the most versatile cards in this format. From fetches to Storm triggers, it seemingly does it all. This build runs more burn, and less real cantrips. A deck like this would not be able to support cards like SDT or Predict, so instead it can afford to run Mental Note, pumping all of its threats, and potentially giving Tarmogoyf +3/+3. This deck doesn't play Counterspell, as it instead wants to lands threats, throw burn or cantrip, or leave one open to Stifle and generate tempo advantage.
Even notice how the side board address many different threats. Hatfield thresh opts for the Counter-top engine in many problematic match-ups, where as Nicollo thresh can bring in a wider array of cards including Spell Snare and Tormod's Crypt. This does mean however that tempo thresh has a much more tight sideboard, leaving Control thresh with more room for other answers.
Also, Stifling a ringleader trigger I feel does generate a significant amount of advantage. Basic math states that +1 < +2/+5. Left with a 2/2 hasty body? No worries, more threats and more burn address this issue deftly.
From my end, I made no claim other than state a preference towards Stifle mostly because of metagame considerations and because of the build I am currently testing (Liek's). All I discussed referred to Liek's list; so the question was not related to the MD of any UGR-Thresh deck but a specific one (and for a specific metagame). Anyhow, I think the discussion has grown stale; instead of repeating myself, I'll simply shut up and get some testing done. Thanks to H. Gilmore and all, it was nice to get all your opinions on the subject.Quote:
The discussion began with the claim that Stifle was better than Counterspell in the main.
Just you and Bardo :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmare
Actually, this is quite healthy ... Think back to the debate on Mental Note Vs. Predict, neither camp came to an consensus but had allot of great discussion on the Pros/Cons to using each one.Quote:
Originally Posted by noobslayer
Fixed ... You removed Werebear, so not reason for MN anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by noobslayer
Actually this statement just proves that I'm beeing ignored and that you don't accept my build.Quote:
Originally Posted by noobslayer
I said that you got 3 free slots. So you can add 2 Needles and the 4th Daze to have some answers to Aether Vial. repeal sometimes also can be a helpful answer to Aether Vial, even if you would just reset it to 0.
If you except a lot of Goblins, I would definitley play 4 Daze and 2 Pithing Needles. Dazes are extremley strong in the earlygame and they are also good later when the Goblin wants so resolve a Warchief, Ringleader or Siege Gang Commander.
@Adan: I considered you build, but to be honest, I haven't had time to try some of your inclusions (BTS for example). I understand that adding Daze and Needle may help vs. Gobs but it's not that hot vs. other decks, like say, Solidarity or Empty the Warrens based decks. But hey, who know, maybe +1 Daze +2 Needle is a good call against the majority of decks in your meta.
@NoobSlayer: Thanks for clarifying the point I was trying to make (guess I decided to post again... what the heck I'll playtest tonight at a local store :smile:). I don't think this will evolve into a flame-war; I just think we need to try and talk about it from a constructive point of view (i.e. trying to make the build better, trying to better understand what makes the deck work/lose, trying to find the right context for our claims (your post is an example of that), etc.). Let's leave our "fantasy setting based card game egos" aside.
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Originally Posted by aTn
Well... let's be honest here. Like NoobSlayer said, we're comparing two different cards for the wrong reasons in this deck. Like everyone else who has played Leik's build, it's Tempo-Aggro. Of course, the Hatfield build is just Midgame-Aggro Control.
The reasons why Stifles are good in Leik's build because he's deck doesnt have a long term advantage and Stifle does many things to slow the game down for 1 simple mana. Counterspell, however, isnt always dead when drawn and counters whatever threat your opponent is trying to play (if Vial is answered of course). Counterspell isnt really dead when topdecked. Because the Hatfield build has so many cantrips, everyone who has played against me says that I pulled counters out of my ass like crazy. I couldn't help but agree.
Really, I believe the argument here is, "should be have a 2nd-3rd Needle in Leik's build? If so, what do we cut?"
Yes, Needle is that importent. We should really discuss this.
Very true, that's what I was repeating in two earlier posts... Anyways, moving on towards your question:Quote:
Well... let's be honest here. Like NoobSlayer said, we're comparing two different cards for the wrong reasons in this deck. Like everyone else who has played Leik's build, it's Tempo-Aggro. Of course, the Hatfield build is just Midgame-Aggro Control.
For a couple of weeks now, I've played with 4 Daze, 3 Stifle and 1 Needle maindeck and it's been fine against Goblins, Fish, Cret Belcher and mono-B suicide (variations of the Columbus list), Solidarity and TES. What other decks would warrant the inclusion of a second Needle ? If Pernicious Deed (and Landstill in general) is rampant, a second Needle could be a good idea. Same thing for equipment based aggro and aggro-control (for example Faerie Stompy). I'd probably cut Daze number four in the build I'm playing (or Stifle number 4 in Liek's original build) to put a Needle in there if need be.Quote:
should we have a 2nd-3rd Needle in Leik's build? If so, what do we cut?"
Has anyone else considered going down to just 4 Nimble Mongoose, and 4 Tarmogoyf? You get to run Isochron Scepter and more burn to off-set the lack of beating bodies.
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Originally Posted by noobslayer
I think you have to run the 4 Mongoose and 4 Tarmogoyf as the creature base. I also run Quirion Dryad, but that mainly b/c I'm playing with the red splash over the white. If I was playing white, I would probably still add at least 1 Mystic Enforcer into the main deck as he always seems to be good when you can get him into play.
I'm not a fan of Isochron Scepter in Gro at all, I would simply play more burn or card draw instead of wasting card slots on the scepter. I don't think its a bad idea to try a few scepters in the board, but I wouldn't main deck them at all.
Agreed. I tried out ScepterGro almost two years ago, this was just before I flirted with the ill-fated ChromeThresh and found both cards (Iso Scepter and Chrome Mox) really interfere with hitting Threshold. Scepter, however, is pretty sweet as a 1-of where it can randomly win the game in an obnoxious and surprising manner, but isn't a core part of the deck. This was especially fun (like in December of 2004) when I was still running AK in Threshold.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
I played in a small tournament today.
4 nimble mongoose
4 werebear
4 quirion dryad
4 brainstorm
4 serum visions
4 mental note
4 force of will
3 daze
3 stifle
4 lightning bolt
3 fire/ice
2 pithing needle
4 wooded foothills
4 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
1 forest
1 island
sideboard:
4 pyroclasm
2 red elemental blast
2 krosan grip
2 threads of disloyalty
2 ancient grudge
3 spell snare
My friends took all of the Tarmogoyfs within my availability and took them to the Grand Prix (that I should have gone to.) So, I had to play good ol' Werebear. I kept track of Werebear's performance throughout the day, here's what I recorded:
-I tapped Werebear for mana 6 times.
-At points when Werebear was in play, if it were a Tarmogoyf, the largest it would have been was 4/5 (although there was one time when it was not in play that it could have been 5/6. Only one time, though.)
-One game I played Werebear on turn 2, obtained threshold on turn 3, and if it were a Tarmogoyf, it would only have been a 3/4. This is probably not typical.
So, my point here is that Werebear is probably better than Tarmogoyf in my configuration of the archetype. I also conclude that Tarmogoyf would be correct in slower versions, or versions build to get more than 4 card types into graveyards (enchantments and artifacts.)
Also, it's important to note that this was a 14 person tournament, where I played against the same archetype (mono black) three times. Matches:
-1: Mono black (win)
highlights: Ancient Grudge down two Chrome Moxes.
-2: uwb fish (win)
highlights: Threads of Disloyalty on Serra Avenger
-3: gwb control (loss)
highlights: after Haunting Echoes resolved, I had a goose and a bear vs a Graveshell Scarab, him at 6 life, I'm holding Fire/Ice. I drew Mental Note, played it and drew another Mental Note, played it, and Iced his guy to attack for lethal. I lose the next two games, but they were fairly close.
-4: goblins (ID. I know, I should have played.)
-quarters: mono black (win)
highlights: 7/7 quirion dryad + pyroclasm
-semis: mono black
highlights: pyroclasm with a dryad again
-finals: gwb control (split.)
So, this tournament probably doesn't bring any conclusive results, however, I will continue testing to determine whether Werebear or Tarmogoyf is correct for this version of the deck.
From what I've seen with Werebears, I only use the mana effect when I am under pressure. With Goyfs, at least, pressures earlier so it wont seem like you're under pressure. But thats from my day today against many Threshold and Aggro Control mirrors.
I played in the same tournament as Liek did, however, I got paired against 10 land stompy, Landstill, and Belcher. I chose to go with Brainstorm/Sleight/S. Visions with Mongoose/Goyf/Dryad. I went 5-0-1 in games with the draw coming in game two vs Landstill as we went to time (they even gave us +10 min in the round). After round 3, I went home with my 3-0 record because my kids were getting restless.
There was only one point at which I wished Dryad was Werebear but I felt Goyfs were solid all day long. At the smallest, goyf was a 3/4 while at its largest, 5/6. Keep in mind that my setup is designed to build Goyfs and Dryads, not necessarily hit threshold.
I see that a lot of people are running fire/ice in their builds. Is he main reason since it pitches to force of will to be run instead of magma jet? How often do you find yourself finding 2 for 1's on fire/ice. Is this used in a particular match up? Just wondering because I would personally keep the theme of the deck going with card quality, granted card advantage is great but the times in when this would occur are very rare. I would much rather kill a pile driver/chief then dig 2 than kill a lackey/matron or just trade one for one on any of the larger butted creatures.