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Sure you can. It's just an out more that don't need the usual Mystical or Death Wish for bounce/removal. Just put it into a Doomsday pile and generate a lot of mana with a top on table.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
However, if MM and Gaddock are not that present in your meta i guess you don't need to waste that slot and can play death wis in its place. Or maybe you want a Brain Freeze in SB.
I meant Mystical Tutor...sorry.
So you'd go:Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Turn 1: Land, Top.
Turn 2: Mystical on upkeep for Doomsday, draw into it. Play the second land, LED, Ritual, Doomsday (for Infernal Contract, Petal, Ritual, LED, Tendrils). Activate Top, pop LED, draw and play Infernal Contract. Play Petal, Ritual, LED, Top, activate Top, pop LED, play Tendrils for exactly 20.
Is that right? Or are there other ways of doing it?
Maybe it would be a good idea to post some more sample hands to illustrate how to play the deck to its full potential. Personally, I wouldn't have initially considered playing that hand out for a turn 2 win with Doomsday, so just thinking through that example was pretty helpful for me.
Our opponents disruption. We also have the capability to slow down their clock, which TES does also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
You can also go:Quote:
Originally Posted by b4r0n
Turn 1: Land, Top
Turn 2: Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, LED, Infernal Tutor (break LED, float BBB), Doomsday (Contract, LED, LED, Lotus Petal, Tendrils), Tap Top, Contract, Petal, Top, LED, LED, Tap Top, Tendrils.
That's basically the same, but it makes more storm.
Sure it makes more storm, it needs a card more! :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
There was no 2nd Dark Ritual involved in the example. You can either Mystical for Infernal or for 2nd Dark Ritual. If you had a 2nd D.Rit you could go with the IGG loop too.
EDIT: Maybe you did want to make another example? If so, my fault, I got it.
This is probably terrible, but what the hell: Boseiju plus Abeyance would let you go off completely unmolested (by things other than triggered or static abilities).
Boseiju makes around 11 cards in your deck uncounterable. After boarding in my deck the most it could be used for TOTAL is 17-18 cards. 5x of these have Split Second, 2x have Storm, and the others should be under the protection of Chant; this makes Boseiju a total waste of space. If you have 2x Abeyance boarded (I run 1x, and that's only sometimes), you can have an uncounterable Abeyance, but not very often. You only have one way to find the Boseiju, and that's if you are hellbent. Not the stuff sick setup/combo turns are made of. It's just not as useful as a Shusher. Not that I'm advocating that, either. If you want that, just go play TES. Just outthink your opponent. It's not like it's THAT hard...
BTW, here's the current list I'm running, but it seems to change by the testing session...:
//Deck: 60
2x Tendrils
1x 'Pate
1x Wipe Away
4x Chant
1x Bargain
3x Top
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
1x DW
1x DD
1x IGG
4x M. Tutor
4x IT
2x Petal
4x LED
4x D. Rit
4x C. Rit
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Trop
1x Tundra
1x USea
2x Scrub
4x Strand
4x Delta
//Sideboard: 15
4x Grip
3x Serenity
1x Massacre
1x Contract
1x R. River
1x E. Truth
1x 'Pate
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Brain Freeze
1x Abeyance
1x Top/Petal (this depends on what I expect to see; top against more control petal against more aggressive builds)
I'm liking the additional ponder, and it's easily sided out for a top in matchups it's not necessary in. Still haven't wanted the 16th land bad enough to drop down to one Petal. Maybe the 4th Ponder is helping with this, I'm not sure. Also looking into Stifle. It probably seems trivial, and it may be as I haven't tested it, but it could come in quite handy vs. a few things. This is becoming Split-Second Fetchland Tendrils.dec. 'Pates, Grips, Wipe Away...Trickbinding their Top on your go-off turn might not be that much of a stretch, lol (this is a joke, so no one take me serious).
Pce,
--DC
- Sideboarded Contract? What for? That could become the 2nd Abeyance.
- Why not maindeck that 4th Top so you can actually go off with Doomsday, not having to worry about not making enough storm off a complicated situation with a single IGG?
- 2nd Scrubland before the 2nd Underground Sea or the 2nd Tundra?
- From what I've been experiencing, more lands is usually very good with those 4 tops. I don't miss the Petals at all.
Contract: Controllish metagame at some point, just never really thought about dropping it, which is wierd 'cause I rarely use it (read: never). It's stupid, so I'll probably drop it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
Single IGG: Not complicated. When I ran 2, I never even needed to chain them. It was like running 59 cards, but worse as it's a lousy topdeck.
4th Top: I really want it...I guess I'll try petal down to 1. The Ponder at 4 is rediculous, I like it.
2nd Scrub: 4x Blue sources (Island, Trop, Sea, Tundra), 4x Black sources (2x Scrub, Sea, Swamp), 3x White sources (Tundra, 2x Scrub), 1x Green source (Trop). Going to Tundra #2 means 5 blue sources, 3 white sources, 3 black sources. Going for Sea #2 means 5 blue sources, 4 black sources, but only 2 white sources. The even split possible. is what's most helpful to me. Maybe my math is crap. I'd like to know if it is.
I don't know about the Petal...God, this is annoying. I guess I'll try an additional land. Don't know if it should be an Island or a plains...I suppose I could do this:
8x Fetches
1x Sea
1x Tundra
1x Trop
2x Scrub
1x Island
1x Swamp
U: 4
B: 4
W: 3
G: 1
For 15...and an additional Plains for a 4/4/4 source split, or an additional Island for a 5/4/3 split. I really NEED the third basic. I don't like getting screwed by Moon Effects (a driving force in my meta...), which leads me to which is better, being able to Wipe Away with just basics, or to be able to have 1 of each color? One would think that UU would be best...What do you think? BTW, this is why the Petal is such a big decision. I could drop petal, fetch the Island, and then any land drop would let me Wipe Away into a win turn 3 (possibly, at least). This also clarifies why I run a Slaughter Pact in the board as opposed to a Sudden Death. It helps with clearing a Magus to use your lands for the combo as opposed to needing BB or UU to get rid of it. Even Death Wishing (yes, I see the BB...) into it adds an additional 1 to a storm count, whereas wishing into a S. Death costs 2BBBB, which is not really a possibility with most hands through a Blood Moon and still comboing off that turn (something that you should do, as 7-8 moon effects and a set of chalices pre-board is a big fuck-you). I suppose this explains SOME of my changes.
Board will now look like this:
//Sideboard: 15
4x Grip
3x Serenity
1x Massacre
1x R. River
1x E. Truth
1x 'Pate
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Brain Freeze (This is a raper to Ichorid: Chant in response to 3rd Narc, Brain Freeze next turn)
2x Abeyance
A question I've been silently harboring is this: Since Serenity and Massacre are the only cards unable to be grabbed by Cunning Wish, would it hurt? Sometimes the life split can be extremely relevant.
Downsides:
--Can't grab 4x Spells from board
--can't grab Tendrils for 1x more storm after Doomsday.
--any other downsides?
Upsides:
--Instant=eot wishing
--No life-loss
--only 1 colored mana in cost
--still grabs Grip, so the inability to grab Serenity is less relevant.
--Grabs Brain Freeze, so not grabbing Tendrils isn't AS bad, plus going C. Wish-->Brain Freeze-->Tendrils is almost equal to a double Tendrils for BB less, so it's still semi-usable in a DD stack.
Thanks for the advice, lmk what you guys think about the wish thing.
Pce,
--DC
Do all Doomsday stacks rely on an SDT in play? Are there Doomsday stacks which do not use SDT, kill the same turn, and do not rely on the graveyard?
I was talking about being able to have more chances in getting SDT on the table so you wouldn't need to worry at all with IGG not getting enough storm. The paragraph below answered it, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Actually, it's closer to 12 blue sources, 12 black sources, 11 white sources and 9 green sources in your list (not counting that when fetching something, all sources are down by one), so the difference is not that relevant. But, since you actually need more blue sources than anything else, you might want to lower white to 10 or black to 11 and get that blue up by one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
With the high availability of each needed color, you should get yourself that basic Plains for Serenity against Blood Moon. Magus will still be there, though. The thing is that you need to be able to combo under a Moon, so I'd guess one of each basic land is a necessity.
Casting Brain Freeze and then Tendrils leaves your opponent half dead and half decked. He won't be dead in either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Death Wish was considered for being able to get anything from our sideboards to answer stuff and it ended up helping on the kill a very small little bit. Cards most fetched are Serenity, Extirpate and Tendrils. Cunning Wish helps with wishing for a good answer (Extirpate) and basically that's it. Emidln already dropped Death Wish after he got Extirpate into the MD and I'm on the way of dropping it too (Extirpate MD, also), since I never get to use it unless I really need that extra storm, which I don't recall happening, since somehow I would be able to get all that mana without getting all that storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
If you don't use LED to ramp mana up for Doomsday, you might have draws in hand, so no SDT is required. You can keep the single LED on the board and wait until you cast Brainstorm (if you don't need to trade cards) or Ponder or Draw4 to crack it in response.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Sensei's Divining Top is just used with Doomsday most often because it doesn't require a hand to start abusing your Doomsday pile. This enables more broken interactions with Lion's Eye Diamond (although LED is still useful with Doomsday stacks involving Brainstorm and Ponder). The only real requirement for playing Doomsday and winning this turn is having at least 2 life (plus whatever your stack might require (4 life is required if you want to Doomsday again or cast a Draw4 for example)) and some way to draw a card post Doomsday. A favorite stack of mine is [LED, LED, Brainstorm, IGG, Tendrils] and its derivative [LED, Petal, Brainstorm, IGG, Tendrils]. These require 3 total cards in hand after resolving Doomsday and either UU or U and an LED on the table to generate a minimum of 9 storm + Tendrils. The Doomsday stacks change greatly depending on your hand, your opponent's disruption, what kind of storm is necessary, and what win condition you want to use.
No, not all dd stax rely on Top, though most do. If you have the blue mana with Brainstorm/Ponder in hand AND M. Tutored/Drew into/topped into Doomsday, and you don't need to pop LED for the mana to go off, you can do that.
so:
BBB BBB BU being the necessary elements, and then grab petal for 1x storm without the need of mana, or grab top if you have an additional 1 for an additional spell instead, or Chant if you have BBB BBB BU and are still capable of producing W without popping LED. Chant would be for fear of Stifle or some such screw-over.
Doomsday into:
1.) Bargain/Contract
2.) Petal/Top/Chant
3.) Dark Ritual
4.) Either Ritual
5.) Tendrils
Then spend U leaving at least BBB in your mana pool, BBBW for chant pile, BBB1 for top pile. Draw Bargain, Petal/top/Chant/LED. Keep Bargain, play bargain hitting Petal/Top/Chant, Rit, Rit, Tendrils. This leaves either, B/1B/WB in your mana pool. Play petal/Top/Chant respectively, Rit, Rit, Tendrils. This of course is much less of a prominent play than Topping into a Doomsday stack.
Pce,
--DC
And what would be the best way to do said upping and downing of the colors? If I go up to 16 lands, 3 WILL be basic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
That's why Petals were so hard for me to let go of. Death Wishing into Slaughter Pact is most of the time the only way to get out from under a Magus. Having to Dark Rit away Pact's drawback is a disadvantage, but then I can 'Pate the hate.Quote:
With the high availability of each needed color, you should get yourself that basic Plains for Serenity against Blood Moon. Magus will still be there, though. The thing is that you need to be able to combo under a Moon, so I'd guess one of each basic land is a necessity.
Right now I'm at 16 lands. My original land count +1 Island. I'm gonna test a plains, though, also.
ehm....Disagree with you here. Top on table. Swamp into Rit, Threshed Cabal Rit (BBB BBB) (or some combination of rit effects), LED, IT popping LED for BBB (BBB BBB B). IT into DD, leaving you BBB B.Quote:
Casting Brain Freeze and then Tendrils leaves your opponent half dead and half decked. He won't be dead in either way.
Doomsday pile:
Bargain, petal, LED, Brain Freeze, Tendrils.
Top into bargain, bargain into petal, top, LED, Brain Freeze.
BBB B in mana pool. Play top. BBB left. Play Petal. BBB left. Play LED. BBB left. Sac petal, BBBU left. Brain Freeze (BB left) and pop LED in response (BBB BB left). tap top, draw Tendrils.
storm for: 19 with Tendrils...38 life, right? Who cares about the Brain Freeze in that situation, it's essentially double Tendrils for 1U. Math might be off, I suck at math. Especially off the top of my head. This is especially bad when playing storm...I do know it's a kill-shot, though.
Still a big part of my list as I have to play against Ichorid (I can grab E. Truth first game as well as 'Pate #2 quickly by going Rit, Wish, even popping an LED in response for UUU or whatever.) It's also an out against Magus.Quote:
Death Wish was considered for being able to get anything from our sideboards to answer stuff and it ended up helping on the kill a very small little bit. Cards most fetched are Serenity, Extirpate and Tendrils. Cunning Wish helps with wishing for a good answer (Extirpate) and basically that's it. Emidln already dropped Death Wish after he got Extirpate into the MD and I'm on the way of dropping it too (Extirpate MD, also), since I never get to use it unless I really need that extra storm, which I don't recall happening, since somehow I would be able to get all that mana without getting all that storm.
I'm running Extirpate MD also, and it's just not enough in my meta to justify dropping the Wish. In a general meta, such as GP Denver in August, I will probably drop it (actually, I need help deciding this...). Probably for a 4th Brainstorm. I dropped 1 in favor of 1x Ponder (up to 4x now along with 4x Top). The shuffle effects are really that important to me.
Pce,
--DC
I was just showing that you could use Infernal Tutor over Mystical Tutor to go off on turn 2, through Daze, also.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
BTW, has anyone considered running a speed build with a Doomsday Sideboard plan? The list would be fairly standard, MBing 4 petals and no Doomsday, and playing Double Tendrils. The SB would play 3 Top, 1 Doomsday, and 3 Lands. The idea would be that after game 1, people board in their graveyard hate, and you bring in a kill condition that doesn't use the 'yard.
Thoughts?
Storm copies the spell and puts each copy on the stack already, it doesn't play them. You'll have 9 storm before casting Freeze (the 10th spell). If you want to play Freeze now and then Tendrils, you'll have 30 cards in your opponent's graveyard and 22 life hits for him. He'll be dead, but it would be the same even if Freeze wasn't there, unless he's playing Life.dec. Anyway, in your example, you didn't take into account BBB used to cast Bargain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
8 FetchesQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
I'd run this. I'm on 17, adding to this one Underground Sea and still debating if I'm going to get Grip on the sideboard, so Trop is an Island. Anyway, blue is required by turn 1 and is useful in multiples for more than one cantrip per turn. White, depending on your opponent, is required also by turn 1 (time walking), but usually it is needed later (protection when going off). At last, black is the last color you are looking for, unless you are against aggro, for which you will need black at most on turn 3. Still, you have to consider things like Extirpate, Death Wish costing BB and stuff like that which kinda screw part of what I just wrote.
ehm....I'm a tool. Oh well. I might try that mana base. Thx.Quote:
ehm....Disagree with you here.
To the FT adepts: about how many matches does it take to start to be able to see multiple paths to the win and identify the optimal choice? From messing around with this deck I've gotten decidedly better at it, but I'm almost positive that I'm frequently missing 1 or 2 routes to the win and probably the optimal way to get there. Is this something that can be learned through increased familiarity with the deck?
Increased familiarity with the deck allows you to see all the options you can do to win. This deck is full of decisions you have to make, and being familiar with the deck, the deck you're against, and the situation of the game will help you sift out the right decision. Just continue playing it and you'll start seeing what I mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
I would like to discuss the list from above with explanations on the following card selection.
I believe the land selection is just fine with the maximum use of 8 fetches.
I would make the following changes if I played this list with top in it.
+2 Lotus Petal
+1 IGG
-1 Ponder
-1 Doomsday
-1 Death Wish
I just don't like having Death Wish or Doomsday in the deck whats so ever. I can see the justification behind adding top for street wraith. I don't agree with the switch b/c it slows down the deck and doesn't add to threshold.
Thats the same argument I would use with lotus petal. You are sacrificing too much speed and threshold ability in favor of a slower draw engine in top.
I believe Doomsday and Death Wish is just too unreliable to use in a combo deck which main focus is trying to win ASAP. This is the one reason I like the old version of the deck, the ability to beat aggro. I think you are opening yourself too much to that matchup which should basically be a bye for a combo deck.
Some discussion on why this is so much better than the first list of fetch land tendrils.