[Deck] Merfolk

I think you definatly need Banneret in order to play Courier. That thing cost bloody 3U!, you should win the game the turn after it resolvs at least 50% of the time for it to be good. Also, both Banneret and Courier has a really really weak body so without lords there really not all that good.

I have currently been testing out 7 1cc dropps of merfolks and I to often found them to be to weak. It's really too bad that there arn't any merfolks out there with a body. Basically, Silvergill is the strongest one there is :/

@Piceli89:
How does your current list look like? What are the problems with the deck in your opinion?

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Originally Posted by elof

I think you definatly need Banneret in order to play Courier. That thing cost bloody 3U!, you should win the game the turn after it resolvs at least 50% of the time for it to be good. Also, both Banneret and Courier has a really really weak body so without lords there really not all that good.

I have currently been testing out 7 1cc dropps of merfolks and I to often found them to be to weak. It's really too bad that there arn't any merfolks out there with a body. Basically, Silvergill is the strongest one there is :/

@Piceli89:
How does your current list look like? What are the problems with the deck in your opinion?

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You can find my old list in the posts above in the tread,but now i'm testing a list taken from one which got 1st in a tourney. I used to play only ports and stiflesm but, as you correctly underlined, ports eat too mana, and are often not so "decisive". Mutavaults should offer theat increase of aggroness and that greater sinergy with standstill whcih should take this deck on a higher level.

creatures- 20
4 loA
4 Reejerey
4 Adept
4 Cursecatcher
3 Thrasher
1 Tidal Warrior

Spells-19
4 Daze
4 FoW
3 Stifle
4 standstill
4 Vial

Lands- 21
12 island
3 Mutavaults
2 Ports
4 Wastelands


Despites this list is really similar to mine and performs pretty well, i still find the necessity to put some MD bouncers, so maybe i'd cut 1 standstill and 1 land to put +2 echoing truths. If a dreadnought or a solitary confinement (with loam) revoles, it's almost always gg, because of the total lack of removal mono-U merfolk decks have.
Moreover, iìm still not fullt convinced of having 9 colorless lands on a total of 21 with Lord that costs UU and back to basics in side, so probably i'd drop something to make the manabase a little bit more "coloured", maybe the 2 ports aren't necessary anymore. Needs testing.

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I wanna say that I'm extremely pleased in staring on Deckcheck.net how the merfolk decks are ramping towards all the top8s. At the moment, we have 28 Merfolks piloted in the top8s in all the tournaments, also the american ones.
Long live merfolks and fuck who dislike you !

Really solid list! After playtesting alot both yesterday and the day before I'm pretty close to your list. I will try out Ports, and I think that 2 is the best number since both Wastelands and Mutavaults are often better. Will try this.

And finally, 3 Stifle, is this card really that good? I know that it is when you use it but I have problem finding the way too use it. Sould you go for a first turn Stifle on a fetch or should you go for the defensive roll and try to Stifle Wastelands, EE, Deeds? So far, I have not been that convinced with Stifles but I will test them out.

Oh, is Echoing Truth the only good bounce there is? I friend of mine suggested Unsummon in that spot for fun, altough it didn't sound that bad. Of course, it does not answer any of our problems, I would like a card that is cheap and allows me to bounce vial/a critter before playing Standstill. Perhaps Echoing Truth does this best? Rushing River I found to be to mana intense.


Ohoh, a second oh. Just remembered you where thinking about UU for Lord of Atlantis. I have had very few problems with this, but have often tried more Tidals. It's hard to say how many islands is suffecient but I wouldn't want to go below 12. I have also noticed that I gotten to mulligan alot of hands, I think it might be because the lack of Brainstorm or it was just a fluke of bad luck. Will try more and let you know!

Keep it up merfolks!

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Originally Posted by elof

And finally, 3 Stifle, is this card really that good? I know that it is when you use it but I have problem finding the way too use it. Sould you go for a first turn Stifle on a fetch or should you go for the defensive roll and try to Stifle Wastelands, EE, Deeds? So far, I have not been that convinced with Stifles but I will test them out.

Oh, is Echoing Truth the only good bounce there is? I friend of mine suggested Unsummon in that spot for fun, altough it didn't sound that bad. Of course, it does not answer any of our problems, I would like a card that is cheap and allows me to bounce vial/a critter before playing Standstill. Perhaps Echoing Truth does this best? Rushing River I found to be to mana intense.

Keep it up merfolks!

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I perfectly understand what are you meaning with stifle, and i can ensure you that i thought that card to be God, until I brought merfolks with 4 stifles maindeck to a tournament with a good level of playing kills and realized how the metagame is aware of the massive presence of it and so every player i met thought two times before cracking fetches / bomb deed / bomb ee / lavamancer me when i had a U open. And so, i think that 3 is the correct number, since , after all, stifle > metagame ( it DOES everything) if you understand when it's the correct time to play it and ruins opponent's plans , and also when it's the time to stifle something relevant and maybe be forced also to start a counterwar and waste resources to make that stifle resolve.


For what concerns echoing truth, it is preferable over Unsummon ( i swear that i thought to that card, too, one time :tongue: ) because it bounces not only creatures, but a non land permanent in general. Do you know what it means ? That echoing truths gives us a chance to suddenly change the face of the game since the 1st game wagainst decks such as stax, dragon stompy, enchantress,and even the rock, which aren't really shining Mus for merfolks. Bouncing a smokestack / chalice/ trinisphere / solitary confinement/ pernicious deed (yes, it may occur to make them lose a time recasting it when we've not stifle ) and other pesky permanents is priceless, believe me.
Not to talk about the utility echoing truths has against goblins tokens of Belcher and zombie tokens of Ichorid, it's really nuts and can give us a little but existant possibility to race them - or, at least, to make them waste a lot of cards :wink:
And , finally, echoing truth is obviously useful when they have multiple permanents which may stall or decide the game, and with this i don't only refer to the forementioned ones , but also to tarmogoyfs, crushers, angels--> creatures bigger than ours ". Bouncing two shitty tarmogoyfs in eot and landing standstill in the turn after is fucking insane.
Ah, echoing truth seems also to perform well against mass removals, such as wrath of god in landstill; since in this MU you aren't really going to bounce anything of their permanents, you can respond to a WoG or a deed bounving your own creatures (specially if you have 2 lord of atlantis on the board and don't want to lose them)/vials ( it may happen ) to hand and leaving them with a happy face XD.
Give it try , dude, and tell me what do you think of it.

Chain of Vapor might also be something worth looking at.

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Originally Posted by mans0011

Chain of Vapor might also be something worth looking at.

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read the posts before commenting. Chain of vapor was already badly exclused because of his antisinergy with a deck based on creatures.. we're not ANT.

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Originally Posted by elof

Really solid list! After playtesting alot both yesterday and the day before I'm pretty close to your list. I will try out Ports, and I think that 2 is the best number since both Wastelands and Mutavaults are often better. Will try this.

And finally, 3 Stifle, is this card really that good? I know that it is when you use it but I have problem finding the way too use it. Sould you go for a first turn Stifle on a fetch or should you go for the defensive roll and try to Stifle Wastelands, EE, Deeds? So far, I have not been that convinced with Stifles but I will test them out.

Oh, is Echoing Truth the only good bounce there is? I friend of mine suggested Unsummon in that spot for fun, altough it didn't sound that bad. Of course, it does not answer any of our problems, I would like a card that is cheap and allows me to bounce vial/a critter before playing Standstill. Perhaps Echoing Truth does this best? Rushing River I found to be to mana intense.


Ohoh, a second oh. Just remembered you where thinking about UU for Lord of Atlantis. I have had very few problems with this, but have often tried more Tidals. It's hard to say how many islands is suffecient but I wouldn't want to go below 12. I have also noticed that I gotten to mulligan alot of hands, I think it might be because the lack of Brainstorm or it was just a fluke of bad luck. Will try more and let you know!

Keep it up merfolks!

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Stifle/fetch first turn is always the right play, it throws off everything. It can result in color screw, its an instant timewalk, sometimes it might just win you the game right there. And it makes your opponent fear it and play around it

@ Piceli89: Do you feel comfortable with just 3 Stifles? In my opinion, playing less than the full playset is inconsequent. You want to have one in your opening hand to stifle the first fetchland, as well as you want to stifle EEs/Deeds/Kegs, etc. in the mid to lategame.

My list looks like this:

// Lands
12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher

// Spells
4 AEther Vial
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
2 Rushing River

I'd like to play three Thrashers, but the list seems to be very tight as it is right now.

In testing, the deck has been a beast against blue based control, Thresholdesque decks and fastcombo. Nevertheless, I'd had some problems with Loam (doable, if you've got a fast start) and Goyf Sligh (almost impossible for me to win preboard).

I didn't have figure out a sideboard right now, but I'd really love to see 8 cards dealing with red (either BEBs or Chill), 4 Relics and some generic anti aggro cards (Jitte?). On the other hand, CB top is good against Sligh, too ... Well, I don't know, really.

A rough draft:
4 Blue Elemental Blast / 4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chill / 4 Counterbalance
3 Umezawa's Jitte

/Edit: I could think of cutting a Vial in favour of the 3rd Thrasher - opinions?

my list:

4 Rishadan Port
4 Mutavault
12 Island

4 Silvergill Adept
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Tidal Warrior
4 Cusecatcher
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Lord of Atlantis

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

SB:
4 Seasinger
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus

weak spot: Wake Thrasher (yes, not a 4x imho) and Cursecatcher (often useless)

I consider Manta Rider instead of Cursecatcher and another Island instead of 1x Wake Thrasher

@Piceli89:
I totally agre with you. I will try out Echoing Truth some more. Will also test Stifle alot more than before.

@murderface:
Yes, I know Stifling a fetch first turn is gold. I have manly problems when I keep a hand that looks something like: "landlight", Stifle, Vial. If I go for Stifle and my opponent doesn't drop a fetch, I have basicly lost my first turn and my opponent have gotten a free tempo turn. This is very important for spells like Standstill that really needs to be played before the opponent can put treaths on the board. I will try it some more before I decide.

@Shimster:
Really solid list! Have you tried Truth? With just 20 lands and 8 of them not being islands (and therefore wasteable) I can sometime have some problems reaching 2U, and also, how often do you want to play the kicker (I guess very often), doesn't this effect your landtotal? Finally, how often do you wish you had a bounce that you could have used a turn earlyer becasue you have Standstill and your opponent has [random creature]?

@Poron:
I tried something similler to your list, how is 8 1/1 critters working out for you? Isn't it a pain in the ass every time the OP plays a blocker? And as you say, sometimes Cursecatcher is worthless and in some, not to rare, cases Tidal is worthless to, what do you do then?

Manta Riders doesn't seem to good too me but I might be wrong? Some list do play them, often with Sygg. I however think it's very dependant on a lord in order to be decent.

Is Seasinger good? I have glanced at it before and wondered. To bad it doesn't have shroud :P

I'm testing Rushing River and Echoing Truth, maybe I should've mentioned it in my last post. Both cards a rock solid on their own. That goes without saying. :smile: The question is, what do you want the bounce to do?

I favour Rushing River because it bounces two permanents most of the time AND evades Counterbalance easily. On the other hand, Echoing Truth is capable of handling 2+ tokens and costs just 1U.

Echoing Truth would strengthen the UWx Landstill MU, the fastcombo and Dredge MU (which is still horrible).

Rushing River would strengthen the Aggro MU (which is still in their favour) and the Thresh MU.

@Shmister: the fact with stifle is that it could be surely good in 4x, but probably if you areplaying against the random noobs you meet on mws who doesn't stop and think a bit while cracking a fetch and you have U open. In a tournament level, stifle gets more "foreseen" so, i repeat myself for another time, the opponent will think twice before activating a fetch or a mass removal. It's true that this slows down their game more or less consistently, but stifle at that point becomes an almsot dead card if they know how to play around it. And if you pack standstill in 4x ( i hope with mutavaults) and the adepts, i think that you have sufficient car drawing to get tht stifle in your hand. Since I'm testing 3-ofs,I'd even place the 4th in the side if there was room.
To your list: it seems good, but trust me when i say that thrasher deserves a 3x.That card is the most massive fish we have; i'd personally cut a stifle (:D) to fit the 3rd. But if you're decided to stay with the 2-ofs, i'd cut a land, 'cause 19 is really enough for this deck, even if this deck really needs lands (apart from having vial) to activate the mutavaults. By the way, I personally prefer echoing truth.
It's true what you have said about the fact that rushing river makes 2 for 1 , but sacrificing a land and the higher mana cost ( 3) makes it inferior to echoing truth. Why ? Because in most of the cases you really need only to bounce a permanent ( it can be something that really hurts you such as Moat or Trinisphere ), while the situation where there are 2 permanents troubling you isn't really that frequent.
You say that RRiver is better versus aggro ? I don't think so, since aggro usually runs land destruction and, in the case of thresholds /fishes, free counters such as daze. Try to reach the 3 mana while being wastelanded a bit on your mutavaults, and maybe you too have been forced to waste something in order to slow them down. I can swear you that 3 mana aren't so fast to gather with this deck as they could seem. And if you fear tarmogoyfs or Zoo creatures, just exploit what this deck has best versus creatures blocking : the pumping effect of our Lords and , most of all, the insane ability of Reejerey to twiddle everything you want when you drop a merfolk. And since Goblins is a bad MU, 3 -4 propagandas should never miss in your SB.
These , of course, are just my ideas , but they revealed themselves as being right most of the times. Just give' em some consideration, then you'll decide to make as you want :laugh:

Lands 20
12 Island
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

Creatures 22
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
2 Tidal Warrior
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat

Spells 18
4 AEther Vial
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
2 Echoing Truth

I like more Echoing thruth than rushing river, but it is about you.
As for stifle.. as being a tribal deck i opt to add 2 tidal warrior and 2 Sygg..
For all other cards. Ok. No more than 2 Wake Thrashers are needed.

Heres the list I've been toying around with recently:

4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
9 Island
4 Blue fetchland
3 Trop. Island

4 Aether Vial

4 Standstill

4 Cursecatcher
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

I've been thinking of trying out 2 Jitte in the main, cutting a Wake Thrasher and a land.

Green for side board (Krosan Grip?)

24 lands, fetches without brainstorm and tropical islands for probably sb krosan grip (i hope it's not a tarmogoyf because you'd be a nerd that case) which isn't really required in this deck? MMhhhh there's something which is not clear here.
However, stifle is a must have in this deck. You posted a list where there's no stifle. With such a configuration, the opponent will just have to protect a bit its mass removal when casting it from your counters and then pop it, and popping a pernicious deed without the possbility to stifle it means losing all the permanents to this deck ( well, except the lands and so the mutavaults, but you know, wasteland exists also for the others...)
iIt's not pretty cool this thing, don't you find ?

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

However, stifle is a must have in this deck. You posted a list where there's no stifle. With such a configuration, the opponent will just have to protect a bit its mass removal when casting it from your counters and then pop it, and popping a pernicious deed without the possbility to stifle it means losing all the permanents to this deck ( well, except the lands and so the mutavaults, but you know, wasteland exists also for the others...)
iIt's not pretty cool this thing, don't you find ?

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This deck has 8 counterspells.
Also, you can cast Echoing Truth if they have no mana to play and sac in 1 turn,
And finally you have 3 manlands. Not the best you could have on board but you are not fucked totally.
I think Stifle is a waste slot in this deck

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Originally Posted by Shimster

I'm testing Rushing River and Echoing Truth, maybe I should've mentioned it in my last post. Both cards a rock solid on their own. That goes without saying. :smile: The question is, what do you want the bounce to do?

I favour Rushing River because it bounces two permanents most of the time AND evades Counterbalance easily. On the other hand, Echoing Truth is capable of handling 2+ tokens and costs just 1U.

Echoing Truth would strengthen the UWx Landstill MU, the fastcombo and Dredge MU (which is still horrible).

Rushing River would strengthen the Aggro MU (which is still in their favour) and the Thresh MU.

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Rushing River also avoids CotV. This is important when facing White Stax.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

24 lands, fetches without brainstorm and tropical islands for probably sb krosan grip (i hope it's not a tarmogoyf because you'd be a nerd that case) which isn't really required in this deck? MMhhhh there's something which is not clear here.
However, stifle is a must have in this deck. You posted a list where there's no stifle. With such a configuration, the opponent will just have to protect a bit its mass removal when casting it from your counters and then pop it, and popping a pernicious deed without the possibility to stifle it means losing all the permanents to this deck ( well, except the lands and so the mutavaults, but you know, wasteland exists also for the others...)
iIt's not pretty cool this thing, don't you find ?

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It's seems pretty obvious that you don't go all in with deck. Save some bodies for post wrath effects seem pretty good to me :rolleyes:. I guess if you just want to play as many guys as possible the it's a bad strategy...

Yeah I put green in the board for some enchantment removal.

I've won 2 25-35 man tourneys with this deck, and let me just tell you, echoing truth is not needed. Why? I maindeck the Relic of Progenitus (3 of them, and run 4 waste,3 muta, 12 islands). I can't believe how amazing the card is, you can drop it first turn, let them play a tarmogoyf, then drop a standstill without fear of goofy mauling you. It cantrips when you don't need it, but right now every deck in the DTB forum and almost every other deck uses their graveyard or some type of recurrence. It turns the major threat of almost every deck into a laughable, muta-killable 0/1 dumbo. It makes thresh a walk in the park (Yeah it was before, but now it's just hillarity), it gives you at least as much help against ichorid, although echoing truth is game over as well.

Team america pretty much can't win against an early relic, IGG loop is done, rock decks can't use volrath or witness, stax can't use crucible, goyf sligh's goyf, pyromancer, and 1 barbarian ring die (but they still beat the crap out of us).

I dunno, there is no reason in my mind to not use this card. The random stax matchup isn't as important as the random goyf matchup, and as I said, the few decks that are oblivious to this card you can just use its cantrip with, which this deck also needs.