Cutting LED's seems to be the trend. Isn't Orim's Chant and Duress working anymore to make sure the deck capitalizes on LED? Also, no back-up plan to Ad Nauseam (e.g. IGG)?
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Cutting LED's seems to be the trend. Isn't Orim's Chant and Duress working anymore to make sure the deck capitalizes on LED? Also, no back-up plan to Ad Nauseam (e.g. IGG)?
As Breathweapon mentionned, Simian is pretty damaging. I'd like to see rite of flame in there but I don't know where. The Myst. Tutors are busted by the way (post-board too).Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
No way...you're playing a list without Doomsdays ?
THE APOCALYPSE is upon us... Ironic since Doomsday is out lol...
I really don't understand why Emidln would cut Doomsday after the amazing finishes put up by Next Level. After all isn't that the type of meta game where D-Day rocks? It seems rather counter intuitive to make such a switch. Then again it is possible that he made the switch as a solution to Counter/Top after all they still gotta get to turn 2...
From time to time I test radically different approaches to storm combo. I tend to not post about most of them because most end up being awful. This one wasn't so I thought I'd throw it out there. SSG didn't pose any lifeloss issues. In a little over a hundred games I haven't lost any games due to SSG taking 3-6 life. I've won a ton of games playing around Daze or playing a red Blast when seemingly tapped out. It also helps to make up for the lack of LED in the maindeck.
Rite of Flame will never be better than Simian Spirit Guide in anything resembling the list I posted. Extra initial mana sources is what I was looking for, not shitty ritual effects.
@emidln: Did you test out Empty the Warrens in the main or side? Based on the disgusting amount of Red Blasts it looks to be able to beat blue easier but how about just random aggro? Without LED and IT to give you free wins and Chant/Duress to buy you time when needed it looks like this list could potentially have problems with Goblins and Eva Green. And the combo mirror would seem to be just awful. Also, the lack of a maindeck bounce spell (Wipe Away or Echoing Truth) doesn't seem so hot either. But, anyway, I will test it out and see how it plays. I am assuming the SB will look something like:
1-2 xIGG
4x LED
2-3x IT
1-3x Empty the Warrens
2-4x Slaughter Pact/creature removal spots
1-2x Echoing Truth/bounce spell
2-4x Artifact/Enchantment destruction spells
Also, could Personal Tutor potentially have a slot as a sorcery speed Mystical 5-6?
Depressingly Personal Tutor doesn't find Ad Nauseam. My sb is currently like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
2 H.Recall
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
I think ETW probably could be maindecked. The lack of maindeck bounce has been an issue in a few games. The list I posted was the first concept list that I started to play that had good results. It has no real tuning.
I don't know how much I care about the combo mirror. In an environment where you'd want to play this list, most people would be sane enough to not bring storm combo, and those who do are either playing a similar strategy (so you're probably not worried about Chants), managed to avoid blue so far in the event, or are not in your bracket because they've lost a few matches.
Have you considered Defense Grid?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Anyone tested 2/3xGrim Tutors?
so, can we try and narrow all these "special" cards down? :) the ones we would like against a certain type of deck but we can't have it all.
what do we want to have....
vs. Threshold with CB?
Duress
8 blasts
vs. Merfolk or slivers (aggrodecks with daze and FoW)
Duress
Pact of negation
Orims chant
vs. Survival rock / Deadguy ale
Bounce or slaughterpact vs. cannonist/teeg
Pact of negation vs. chant
LED-package (infernal, LED, IGG)
what more? :) i like the LED-package maindeck. But I dont face that many blue decks, i will prolly change my mind then.
These are the protection spells I run:
4x Orim's Chant
4x Duress
I am not a big fan of the Blast plan since it requires quite a few lands in play. If you are trying to ask what the best protection spell is, it is Orim's Chant by a clear mile (this can depend on what deck you are playing but usually this is it). Chant covers all the bases and allows you to cast IGG regardless of whats in the opponent's yard. It acts as a timewalk when cast in the early turns and OWNS Enchantress and Dredge as well as timewalks and fogs aggro, as good as it gets.
Regarding Pact of Negation, I will not argue this again in another combo thread but I will state this if you deck runs Lion's Eye Diamond then PoN is shit, if it doesn't then the card is very much viable.
I have a question. Anyone may answer with his opinion, the more the better.
You will play in a tournament, but may not change your maindeck. In your sideboard there are 8 cards you may fill in with any legacy legal card, ofc not playing more than 4 copies of 1 card in main and side together. All the other decks at the tournament happen to be UWG CounterTop Thresh, a pretty average list, let's say 2 Spells Snare's and no Stifle. Assuming your goal is to win as many rounds as possible, what would you fill the 8 slots with and how would you board?
This is the maindeck and partly Sb list, which you may not change.
4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Mystical Tutor
4 IT
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 AdN
1 IGG
1 ToA
4 Chant
4 Duress
4 Delta
4 Strand
1 Isle
1 Swamp
2 Sea
2 Tundra
Sb:
8 slots to fill
4 Thoughtseize
1 EtW
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's recall
If you really want to you may alter the (land)manabase a bit, but 1 Tundra, 2 Sea, and 8 fetch must stay. This because you may want to splash and play a dual of the splash color, but you could also play it Sb.
I don't care about your opinion on the rest of the Sb or maindeck for now.
That is a hideous list to take into that kind of meta. With only 14 lands and no green you have no chance at doing well plus there is no maindeck bounce spell or Ad Nauseam #2. The maindeck manabase should look like this:
4x Strand
4x Delta
1x Sea
1x Tundra
1x Island
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Trop
1x Swamp
And then those 8 slots in the SB should be:
3x Krosan Grip
3x Xantid Swarm (cut Thoughtseize, it is to counterproductive)
1x IGG (to make burn/Goyf Sligh a literal bye)
1x Slaughter Pact
I was wondering, since ANT has a terrible MU against CB, why not try out Trickbind in the sideboard? Bait with Chant and if they activate top to spin or flip, Trickbind it so that for the rest of the game, CB can only counter spells from a single blind flip's cc.
I know this is clunky, but there is almost absolutely no way to beat CB if it resolves except to wipe away, for which they will try to be prepared when you tutor for Wipe away. Just an idea with Trickbind. It stops the first activation and rest of the activations for the rest of the turn. It's more mana heavy, but games aren't going to be fast if a CB is already in play. Trickbind might solve the problem of a CB ALREADY in play. Worse comes to worse, multiple Trickbinds can be used to stifle Fetches and slow your opponent from setting up CT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by matelml
I would say:
8 slots:
2 Tropical Island
2 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
3 random maybe for on the play 3 extra ETW...?
Trickbind costs way too much. I think that you would be better off with needle. As for the what should be in the board why not board dark confidant and pact of negation and swap them for the led package. I would also say you should turn 2 thoughtsieze into wipe away.
So how does everyone feel about the eight blast list? I have been testing and i like it but im still not sold.
Ok, I understand that that is a hideous list to take into a meta like that. I'm not interested in that. This of course isn't reality, it's just a thought experiment , with as goal to get the best Sb plan against a standard CB list with the deck I play, which is in my eyes the best list for my meta, so I don't care to hear comments on the list. To make it more clear: no, my meta doesn't consist of 100% CB, otherwise I'd play a different deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
In the situation I listed, I am not interested in making Goyfsligh a literal bye, nor in hearing I should cut Thoughtseize. This post isn't very useful for me, but thanks anyway.
An important part of the question is: how would you board with the Sb you come up with? Just giving some cards that are good against a specific card isn't very hard, it becomes harder when it needs to be integrated into a strategy/deck.
Also 3 random isn't helpful. There is of course the option of boarding in less than 8 cards and to have a different plan on the play and draw.
So what your doing is giving us a suboptimal list then saying try to make that work. And cutting down others advice isn't a way to get that done. Thoughtseize doesn't belong in the board and i agree with PF on that. The point everyone is making is you can't slave drive results and inspiration. You need to heed their advice. The list you posted is quite suboptimal, so asking us to go back and create a board for said list is quite the oxymoron...Quote:
Originally Posted by matelml
He is not giving a suboptimal list at all, he just said that. Please read carefully. You can't say anything about the quality of his list, because it's dependant on the metagame it's played in, and you don't know what metagame that is. I know matelml, he can most certainly defend his card choices in this list. The list is in our metagame certainly not suboptimal. Perhaps up for debate, but not bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCage
I don't see the problem with the question. He's just asking for advice on how to construct the sideboard to fight CB Threshold, not wether the rest of his list is good. You could just give a (perhaps your own?) decent SB plan against CB Thresh, and maybe it'll be usefull.
Well, in my eyes and not only mine, also that of various other very good players I know, this is the best maindeck list for my meta. Because I will run this list anyway, I said to not change it, because that won't do me any good.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCage
I do think Thoughtseize belongs in my board, but you can ignore it if you want. You may replace them with basic forests in the thought experiment if you want to.
If you are interested in why: it's my Sb plan against pretty much anything nonblue, to take their CotV, Trinisphere, Gaddock Teeg, Cannonist, Pillar, Hymn, Runed Halo, Chant, Thoughtseize, Duress, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst. I usually bring it in for 4 Chant.
Sorry if I came off a little harsh, it's just that I specifically said some things, because I knew if they would be ignored the advice wouldn't be of any use to me and then they get ignored...:rolleyes:
I don't see everyone making the point that I am slave driving results or creativity, but I apologise for sounding like it.
"Oxymoron"? I don't see the contradiction. (I had to look that up, I'm not from the States)
I do appreciate it when people at least try to help, because many times things just get ignored on this forum.
vs. Orims chant, when you play your own chant, they chant in response thus time walking while Pact of negation just simply negates it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
and vs. a counterbalance in play pact of negation and chant sucks. when pyroblast counters it (ofcourse when he plays it)
The debate i'm trying to start is, what protective cards are most versatile, and how can you make a SB that is also versatile. But everyone is still posting decklists saying "what do i do against blue decks... "
well, what do you WANT to have?
So were back to 4 IT, really, maybe if the entire meta is completely underdeveloped but in any healthy meta IT should never be a four of. If he was openly asking for advice he wouldn't go around shooting down the advice given. I'm not saying his list is terrible. Its definately a start but it is worse then most the list on here for a healthy meta. His main is geared to completely destroy anything not blue. Its faster then the average list, I get that but the reason he is asking is because he keeps losing in top 8 to the one guy playing counter top. If he altered his main slightly he would be in better shape to begin with. Thats all i'm saying And i'm not trying to be harsh either, i reread my post and i came off sounding...with the wrong tone so please ignore that. But please take into account an edit of your main, i highly encourage it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Thanks, but there are some wrong assumptions you make.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCage
I'm not openly asking for any advice, but just for the CB match-up. My assessment of my meta is that I don't need to change my main for the match-up, because it is so little played. You may call this an "undeveloped meta" if you want to, but it's like this in most of the Netherlands and Belgium, as far as I know.
The reason I'm asking for advice is not that I keep losing to CB in the T8. In fact, the last tournament I played that list, I split top 2, at 56 ppl. I'm pretty happy with my main, but my Sb could be better, probably. Since I know my meta better than most people on TheSource, I don't ask "What Sb and MB should I run?", but ask something more specific.
What i reckon, the best thing against CB is pyroblast or something else that counters it, spellsnare has been debated but people didn't like it.
You can't count on discarding their CB when they have brainstorm or just plain topdeck. Orim's chant doesn't do anything, neither do Pact of negation.
That's why this deck should run Tropical Island and 3-4 Krosan Grips. You can afford to wait because usually Goyf is no more than a 3/4. EOT Grip, and on your turn Duress that FoW, Chant against Snares and Dazes, and go boom.
I highly recommend one change to main, drop one IT and add one AdN at least that will help boarding. And perhaps a splash of red and 7 or 8 blast side would help. You would have to alter your main a little more but i honstly have been testing the blast version and have been loving it.
So how would you suggest to board then? How many Blasts? Krosan Grips? How many Chants and Duress left in game 2? Keep LEDs? Keep IGG?
@matelml: Ur welcome :) I play lots o' combo so I am just helpful all around!
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
4 Brainstorm
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Orim's Chant
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
--- Sideboard ---
2 Pyroclasm
2 Orim's Chant
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Telemin Performance
1 Grim Tutor
1 Meltdown
1 Scrubland
I find it kinda funny that I came up with this list after reading about AnT variants with red, and after reading the GP coverages, it turned out that it's MD is one card off from Kolowith's (1 Iggy instead of 1 Ponder). Telemin performance was added after seeing Kolowith's list.
The maindeck Iggy may seem strange, especially with AdN getting to flip it, but it sped up the deck, allowing for more consistent kills.
What do u mean it was one card off? The ponder vs ill-gotten gains confused the shit out of me.
I mean I run an Ill-Gotten Gains in the main where Kolowith ran a Ponder.
So I ran the eight blast version tonight in a tourney into a meta full of counterbalance and landstill and even a tog...i wanted to see if the deck could really take it and stand up thnks to blast...I was quite pleased when i went the entire night 5-1 only losing in finals to red thresh and one....NASTY AdN...it literally went..2...2...4...5...4...i was not a happy camper...but the spirit guides and blast were amazing...the only thing i would change is board...i dont feel we need 3 chains...most stuff we bounce goes up to hurklyls....i want two more tendrils actually...at least to test and try a double tendrils plan...perhaps even try boarding bob again...whats the thoughts peeps?
I'm going to play in the Scandinavian Masters in sweden, i have no clue about the meta, but my guess is there will be it's fair share of blue with and without CB but other decks as well. The most versatile version i like is the one with the LED-tutor package.
4 LED
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Ad Nauseum
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Delta
3 Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
2 Sea
2 City of traitors
The slots i twiddle with is
+- 1 ponder
+- 1 tendrils
+- 1 chrome mox
+- 1 IGG
But for my sideboard i wanna transition to fully compete with threshold and CB.
4 Simian spirit guide
4 pyroblast
3-4 red elemtal blast
1 Badlands
3-4 Bounce (wipe away, hurkyls, echoing)
I don't think SSG is very good because of Ad Nauseam. Also, it doesn't add to the storm count.
I also don't see why you don't run Burning Wish - you have red...
Someone else posted that SSG doesn't pose a serious life threat.
And the deck isn't red, it just has a red sideboard, I dont have space to have a sorcery-sideboard.
Do not run SSG... For the love of god... Dont run it. Add like an additonal red fetch and another land if you must... but DONT RUN SSG...
That is all.
You're not playing wish and only running 3 Infernal Tutor? Especially with LEDs...
You're siding in SSG/Red blast to compete with thresh? Why not run a single Scrubland to fetch and Orim's Chants instead? Considering you run Tutor, you should probably cut City for Gemstone Mine/Fetches and Scrubland to play a single Chant main.
hi, I've never been on this thread before. but it looks exactly like someone took TES and stuck some fetchlands in it. what am I missing ?
:confused:
Reading the other 41 pages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seriously