Chain is also the only Sorcery in the deck which is probably why they were run, even as a two-of.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmerz213
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Chain is also the only Sorcery in the deck which is probably why they were run, even as a two-of.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmerz213
I dont know about that. Sure, early game the 1 mana makes a bit of a difference, but late game in topdeck mode its irrelevant. And at that point, Id much rather have the 3 lifegain too, regardless of board position. People tend to run jitte SB but I cant seem to justify cutting it from the MB in my list. It just does what it does so well. I love the ability to clear their board with removing tokens (which saves burn for troublesome stuff or game wins) and at the absolute worst (this has happened once) I played one just to blow up one that was equipped on a wake thrasher on the other side of the table G1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jugglin
I dont really buy that as a reason to run a card, especially as just a 2 of. If your going to make that arguement then it should probably be as a 4 of with no Helixes.Quote:
Originally Posted by tpnp
I really don't like chain. Sure, it's a sorcery speed lightning bolt, but helix will help out vs Storm decks as it forces them to build up a higher storm count.
Not to mention, but casting it in response to them doing a storm 10 tendrils is pretty funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Yeah, that would be pretty funny. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmerz213
Also, there is a rare chance that someone can bounce the CL back at you (though I doubt it's that relevant all of the time). The fact that it's sorcery speed is what puts me off of using CL.
In an older version of my zoo list when I was still running hellspark I would have run chain in addition to helix, but I will not cut helix from my deck now. The 3 life is awesome in the mirror and against pretty much any deck in the format. Yeah it costs an extra mana, but I think it's worth it for the better card.
So what's the verdict on Kird Ape? Is he still worth running, or is he too small in Gofy world?
I think that with the recent demise of Mogg Fanatic, Kird Ape can indeed have a spot in zoo, even if it's just a bad Nacatl.
My usual creature base for Zoo is :
4 x Grim Lavamancer
4 x Wild Nacatl
4 x Kird Ape
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Qasali Pridemage
I very much want to put this deck together; however, I want to come up with a fairly strong list before I invest in the final parts for it. As such I'm very interested in doing a good deal of testing for this deck (albeit on MWS, since I don't know of anything better). If anybody would like to help, by either piloting either zoo or the decks to test against, please send me a PM and/or contact me on AIM. We can talk from there on how to go about it. Thanks.
I constantly cut Kird Ape and then re-add him. I think my final thoughts on the subject now are that while he does kind of suck, not having him to play on turn 1 sucks more.
Yep, hes one of those guys that you want in the first few turns and then when you top deck him late game instead of a burn spell for the win its like, fucking kird ape.
I'm about finished building Zoo and I just wanted to post my list, so if there are any glaring mistakes someone please point them out. It's a pretty standard list:
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Woolly Thoctar
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
2 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast
3 Path to Exile
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Sideboard:
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Relic of Progenitus
Should the Horizon Canopy be a Bloodstained Mire?
Here is a Zoo deck from a friend of mine:
Creature:
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Knight of the Reliquary
Instant:
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
Sorcery:
4 Chain Lightning
Land:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Winswepth Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
-> With Knight we have a big thread in mid and late game. And i think that's to way to go to get a bigger creature as goyf and Stalker. Furthermore he has got a great synergie with Grim Lavamancer because he fills our GY and we have more food for Lavamancer. (We take for example Bolt and Jet for Lavamancer and all Landcards stay in the GY to pump our Knight). I want to play 1 Terravore but he isn't necessary because Knight and goyf are bigger and he is to expensive in different to Knight (Knight is 2/2 without land cards, gravehate wouldn't make problems, but Terravore would die).
I have cut 1 Fireblast and 1 PoP for the Knight. I think Blast and PoP are good Finisher but they make problems with our Manabase. Thats the reason to play 3 and not the playset and the slot is free for our Knight.
I'm testing the list with 4 Lightning Helix for 4 Chain Lightning but it's to slow for an Burnspell in my opinion.
Greets Sven.
@Keys
The deck looks good, its burn heavy which some people like more than the more creature aggro type. The only thing Im worried about is Fireblast. Certain decks are probably going to deny you some mana source (given how burn heavy yours is, I wouldnt be surprised if they chose red). Have you ever found yourself with one of them dead in your hand because you only had one mountain or none at all? Any particular reason to run Thoctar over KoR? To me, the Knight would fix any issue you had keeping red out (for fireblast) and not requiring that very color would also give you the edge in casting him if someone did deny you it.
As for the fetch..Ive never been a fan of Mire's in Naya Zoo. The black side does you no good. The canopy would probably be the better play imo.
@Bitchtoken
Same kind of deal it looks like, burn heavy. You only have white in the Knight/Pridemage why no Swords/PtE? It will outperform any burn spell all day (as for being a 1 for 1). Im not 100% sold on fireblast either. In sligh, definitely since you have a ton of mountains, but in Zoo..I just dont know. Also, probably influenced by my meta (very few non basics aside from mine) I dont like PoP main deck. But then again, thats probably a meta call. I play in a rather...janky one. Chain is definitely too slow (as you said). Thats the spell I could see cut for 4 Swords/PtE. Oh and what about equipment? Jitte is a house with this deck, SB or MB is your choice but I strongly urge it.
In my recent testing with Zoo, the card I never want to see has been Chain Lightning, the fact that it is sorcery speed has actually got me to the point of cutting it, this is the list I'm currently playing...
Lands:21
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Creatures:22
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nactal
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vexing Shusher
Noncreature Spells:17
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Path to Exile
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
Sideboard:15
3 Krosan Grip
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Choke
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Price of Progress
4 Qasali Pridemage and 2 Vexing Shusher are defenetly to much for main. I would cut the Shusher and play more beater like Woolly Thoctar or Knight of the Reliquary. Maybe a onedrop with Isamaru. Furthermore I would play more Burn because you have then more food for your Lavamancer because PtoExile can be a dead card (Fastcombo etc.).
I am putting this deck together for legacy since I play a standard version of it, and it is a lot of fun. I do have a few questions about it (and yes I did read almost the entire thread first).
1. Is ranger of eos too slow for this format/deck? I like that it can search out threats if you start to run out of gas in the midgame against control decks. I saw very little mention of him in the thread, so I'm assuming he doesn't merit space in this format.
2. If my list is playing both lavamancer and jotun grunt, is tarmogoyf as strong here as he is in most other decks? (I want to run them, but honestly being back in the game for a month, the price he is at is a little nauseating.) I fully understand that a deck without tarmo won't be as effective as one with the full 4 copies.
3. A lot of lists seem to be running 1 or 2 of Gaddock in the board, how effective is that number without any way to draw additional cards or tutor/search him up in any way?
This is really a very interesting deck, and look forward to seeing it develop more as more sets are released.
Thanks in advance
SoT
He is a really interesting card. Ive been toying with the idea of running him as a 2 of but Im still skeptical. We only really started discussing him recently (thats why he hasnt been mentioned much) but that doesnt mean hes not good. Granted, a 3/2 for 4 is usually bad, but the guaranteed creatures is nice. Its iffy, and probably will ultimately come down to your play style, but I kinda see him as a 30% chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOfTitans
No...goyf...huh? I kid, I kid. I have actually been siding out my Goyfs for a set of Grunts lately it seems like. The opponent never expects it and if they are running goyfs, they really help neuter them. If you are going to play without Goyfs, its not the end of the world. It just might make some games a little rougher. Running both lavamancer and grunts is going to be very GY intensive though, it could prove to be a bit much.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOfTitans
One thing this deck lacks is tutoring, your totally right. I have seen a lot more lists running Sylvan library lately, you may want to look into that. Its a solid card since the life you loose for holding a card can easily be negated by Helix and Jitte. Without Library though, I have had a hard time finding those clutch cards in the past. I run chants in the SB and I had to rely on some epic top decking to win a storm matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOfTitans
Hope that helps!
Anyone tried playing Mold Adder instead of Kird Ape in the main ? Ape only beats for two, and while Mold Adder sometimes will remain a 1/1, against most of the decks in the format it will attack for two on the second turn, and have the potential to outgrow the other creatures shortly afterwards. It all depends on your meta of course, but just looking at the DTB, there isn't much that doesn't play either blue or black, and even one or two blue/black spells are enough to make it an efficient beater...
a definite 2/3 vs a maybe 2/2 seems pretty easy to pick the 2/3 over it.
kird ape is probably one of the best creature 1 drops in the format, not in the same league as mold adder, which is situational/crappy.
Adder sucks vs the Mirrior.Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
Adder sucks when you top deck it turn 4+.
Adder sucks vs Goblins.
No, I don't see Adder in the maindeck. MAYBE in the sideboard, but nto main deck.
I would much rather play Nimble Mongoose before I consider Mold Adder.
About ranger of Eos: I would probably run bloodbraid elf before ranger. For starters, they have the same body. Although ranger nets you +1 card advantage over elf (But probably higher card quality), elf is a lot more aggressive, and for that is probably better.
That said I think that 4-drops are probably too much for zoo when we already have so many great options for creatures. Also, I would say that figure > any (most) 4-drops, and he'll be "less" mana-intensive for you.
There is something to be said about having a few 3cc+ creatures in the deck to dodge Counterbalance, Chalice, and EE@1. Thoctar or Knight of the Reliquary are the best options here.
A few comments:
- In a conflict between cheap and more reliable/powerful tools for a given role, I'd opt for the former. I find Zoo attractive because it's reasonably fast while staying all-business.
- Anything more than 20 lands seems too much; depending on your curve you might get away with 19.
- If running Tarmogoyf, I'd also run Chain Lightning. Opponents will often provide sorceries for you, but I wouldn't want to count on that.
- Fireblast is excellent. With a slighter greater amount of one-drops, it's more than a finisher; we can often play it on turn 3 to clear a troublesome creature away as we cast a Thoctar/Knight of the Reliquary. Awesome synergy with the Knight if you prefer that (I don't).
*
My preferred maindeck is
//Lands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
//Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Savannah Lions
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogyof
3 Wooly Thoctar
//Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
That seems incredibly unbalanced.
You really, really want qasali pridemage in the list. Honestly, if we didn't have pridemage there would be a lot less reason to play this deck. Little 2/1s or 2/2s are so not worth it. You are not speeding yourself up by running those guys, because they are just going to die to opposing creatures.
4 fireblast is definitely way too much. I don't even think that it needs to be run, but if you want to run it don't run more than 3. Running 4 is just shooting yourself in the foot for when something not so "all-in" could actually help you win the game.
You probably want to run some :w: removal (swords/path), because you really need that "unconditional" removal sometimes.
Also, Jitte is just that good.
I'd go like this:
-4 Savannah lions
-3 Isamaru
-1-2 Fireblast
+4 qasali pridemage
+2-3 Umezawa's Jitte
+1-3 :w: removal
Ditto on Pridemages. So good!
I like Hatfield's version of the deck, except I slightly prefer Lightning Helix to Chain Lightning.
Fireblast and small fry go well together; with a cheap consistent offense Fireblast becomes useful to clear the path and is more than a finisher. With 12 burn spells and Lavamancer, the creatures don't need to go all the way... get in some quick damage, stall until you can burn them out works quite nicely.
In testing, the list played really well... that Tarmogoyf often felt like the weakest link next to the 4th Fireblast (despite running sorceries myself) is a good sign imo.
*
The main problem I see is sideboading: Boarding in utility slows the deck down, which suddenly makes the whole concept a little iffy. If we can't finish the game with an alpha strike/burn after tough blockers show up, the lack of white removal becomes an issue; Lavamancer seems a little anaemic for controlling the midgame compared to Jitte and so on.
As such, any sideboard cards that aren't threats themselves become a lot weaker.
I think that goes a bit too far, unless you don't run any Grim Lavamancers.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
No offense, but that list looks horrible. I'm sure the goldfish is fast, but seriously, hello EE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iranon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iranon
The list is very very bad. Figure of Destiny isn't a good Creature for Zoo, to slow, not strong enough. Same Savannah Lions. Furthermore you don't fill your Grave for Lavamancer and that's horrible. play more burn with Magma Jet and PoP.
challice at one looks like gg, follow up with a challice at 2 is a scoop em up buttercup
Proper capitalization is required on this site. Please use it. Thanks.
- Zilla
This is the list im going to play.
Any idea's/tips about the sb(or mb) are welcome.
Anyone familiar with the deck can post SBplans against most decks?
+what is the best anti-combo option?
4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath
2 bloodstained mire
3 taiga
3 plateau
2 mountain
1 forest
1 plains
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
4 grim lavamancer
4 kird ape
4 wild nacatl
2 woolly thoctar
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 magma jet
3 fireblast
3 price of progress
sb:
3 choke
2 krosan grip
3 red elemental blast
3 vexing shusher
4 pyrostatic pillar
Ethersworn Canonist and gaddock Teeg are great combo options. I'm not sure how effective REB is going to be - what will you be using it against and specifically which actions?
Using a REB to counter a blue counterspell is not effective use of the card slot. You would rather play something that is either a threat or finds more threats. REB does neither. It's just card disadvantage. Overmaster is better at that point. Orim's Chant is probably better for the same and arguably better effect.
You also already run Vexing Shusher, so...?
Like ruckus said, Teeg and Ethersworn are your best shots for anti combo, with a nod to Chant too, its done me good in the past.
REB is actually one of my favorite anti blue sb cards. Mainly because it can counter or act as 1cc removal of a blue threat. It can be pretty clutch sometimes, but I guess its personal preference.
What about some kind of equipment MB? As creature heavy as your list is, jitte would fit nicely. Im thinking something like..
-4 Magma Jet
-1 Chain
-1 Fireblast
+4 Lightning Helix
+2 Jitte
IMO, Jet is over-rated in Zoo. Especially with the ability to run Helix. It is a sweet card in Sligh, but I like the extra damage + life from helix.
Totally agree on Magma Jet. I give in and only run 2 simply because there isn't enough good burn to go around and I need some sort of control over my draw step for when topdecks eventually happen//need to find an answer for Goyf/Stalker.
When in doubt... dome!
@rancOr_
I run the following SB.
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Pithing Needle
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Teeg
2x Pyrostatic Pillar
I've loved Needle, like all the way, it's useful in almost all matchups. I'm thinking about cutting it because lately in my meta, it's become not that great. I love Pillar, it works against combo and Enchantress and helps race some decks. It's just an all around good card. Grudge is a must in my opinion. If you meta has more CB then run Grip. Grudge just fucks up random decks. I run a 4of Crypt because i like grave hate and don't feel like losing to random Ichorid decks that show up, and they do most of the time.
Tune it to your Metagame man is all i can tell ya. I'll give you my opinion on all cards :cool:
@everyone else: I've missed you guys. I came back from vacation fucking sunburned all to hell. I'm jonesing for some magic. So i hope to post a report next Wednesday when i rape weekly Legacy. Peace.
Im officially done playing Kird Ape..I took Zoo to the PTG Tropical Island event today and there were several times I wished he was anything other than he was. Im pretty sure I sided him out every game. Ill post a report later today or tomorrow, but it wasnt the best ive done. 7th out of 16, should have done better but I got horribly land screwed round 4. Thats how it happens sometimes though.
I dropped ape from zoo awhile ago. I really think there are better creatures to be running in the 1 slot. Personally, I like figure, as he gives you some thing to do with dead mana, rather than just sitting there looking dumb.
Depending on your meta, he can be really strong or really lackluster. Wasteland heavy fields are going to make Nacatl worse than Ape. Under these conditions, you're going to have to grab a red source, then a green, then a white. Or maybe a green then a red, depending on your hand.
If you play in an area with few decks that run Wasteland, Ape shines less. You can get away with going for 2 duals off the bat, making Nacatl a 3/3 while Ape is stuck as a 2/3.
If you really don't like Ape and don't fear nonbasic hate, Watchwolf is a Nacatl for an extra W and doesn't care about the lands you have after. Or that 3/1 for 1R and Unearth is decent if you're picking off their creatures.
I really like Horizon Canopy in this deck, by the way. It hasn't been listed recently or mentioned, but I like that it functions as a land when you need it, and later on it becomes a new card. It's awesome.
Edit: Figure can be awful sometimes though. If I have 3 lands, I'm gonna want Thoctor over FoD. I don't like that he starts out so fragile too...he's pretty mana intensive early on.