Tireless Tribe is the best card in the deck.
Bloodghast can't beat a Kird Ape.
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Tireless Tribe is the best card in the deck.
Bloodghast can't beat a Kird Ape.
I've tried playing a few brews without Tribes and with Bloodghasts + Ichorids similar to the above list. At least when I was experimenting, since the deck was very lacking in discard outlets (Cabal Therapy is poor, and you often want to use Careful Study to dredge), I tried choosing to draw some games with the plan of discarding at the end of turn as my main discard outlet. It worked okay and I found myself mulling to 6 a lot less, but when I did have to mull it was that much worse because I was that much further from hitting 8 cards in hand to discard. That and the additional difficulty of casting Ancient Grudge/Nature's Claim off of only 8 sources of green made me drop the list. You really only want to extra graveyard dudes post sideboard anyway when you're forced to dredge slowly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
I agree completely. I originally couldn't find room for four Tribes with the 15 lands and Careful Studies being untouchable. But they were just so good in testing, that I found the extra two slots buy cutting a dredger and an Ichorid. The Tribes are better anyway.
I found Bloodghast not too bad when run along with Realm Razer.
If you are playing without LED and with 15 lands, 4 Tirbes are perfect.
This card stops aggro in a brilliant way. It is the best one drop agains Goblins and in the LEDless version way more
better than the Imp.
I also choose to draw all the time even if I win the die roll and just use the clean up step to discard my dredger so that I won't have to look for PImp in my opening 7. I just look for land, gas, dredger in my opener and DDD for one or two turns before casting my draw spell to dredge and win. I also hate it when they kill your PImp and can't continue dredging on the next few turns coz you have 4-5 cards in your hand (that is, if you don't dump all of it in response to killing PImp - but that's even worse in most cases). And choosing to go 2nd gives you an idea of what deck they're playing based on how they play their first turn so you can adjust accordingly (with the exception of combo decks of course).Quote:
Originally Posted by maxflow2
Against blue decks, that try to counter your discard outlets this is the only right way to go. But that strategy shouldn't always be applied. Against decks without counters you'll rather have a turn 1 Tribe/Imp. This allows Coliseum activations on turn 2, playing around daze turn 2, Breakthrough x=1 on turn 2 and other things. Most importantly it allows you to drop your entire hand at any time you want. With the DDD startegy your whole hand is pretty dead, which is not nice with Dread Return, Bridge or Ichorid in your hand. Also, PImp can swing for 2 with evasion while Tribe blocks everything away. Apart from that they are C.Therapy/Dread Return food.Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
The chance that your opponent removes your Imp/Tribe and you don't hit any Dredgers in the subsequent Dredges is pretty low, it practically never happens. Actually the chance that your opponent uses a discard Spell like Duress or Thoughtseize in order to rip your Draw spell, while simultaneously preventing your next End Step discard is higher.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
There's no reason why you should be going for the DDD plan against non-blue decks. Against blue decks it's worth it to trade speed for the uncounterable dredger-discard. Against other decks you should be going out there and smashing their face.
It's also worth mentioning that your strategy wont work all the time. If you decide to draw and they go turn 1 Relic, they'll just use the tap ability and make you cry.
Ok, it will I do receive not agree on this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
And wath you do after three PtE, StP, Relic or Tormod's when you have two or three Icho, FKZ or Iona removed? You loose!
You smash face with the Zombie tokens you already should have if you're a decent player.
Seriously, stop it.
Battle with a ragtag crew of adorable misfits. Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug hook up before the end of the movie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozon
Precisely with BfB and U Paradis this is combo. Bloodgast vs Kird Ape make one or too 2/2. Before the next Landfall.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
Bloodghast can't block.
But not before the PImp carts Narcomoeba around town.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
It was an abusive relationship, I recall.
Bashing in with a 2/2 flyer sometimes takes it all.
This isn't entirely true in my case. One dredger in the yard with no discard outlet and praying to hit another dredger in your draw step does happen but I'd rather have a permanent discard outlet (clean up step) and one dredger to consistently dredge every turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
Again, this isn't true in my case since I don't see a lot of black in the meta these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
It's not that I don't want to play PImp. I just want to make sure that I don't throw away my only discard outlet when I play him so I try to figure out what my opponent is playing and see if he/she has some sort of removal or counter magic by going second. I'm just saying that dredge can live with an opening 7 that doesn't have PImp/Tribe.
I usually respond with land, nature's claim in this scenario.Quote:
It's also worth mentioning that your strategy wont work all the time. If you decide to draw and they go turn 1 Relic, they'll just use the tap ability and make you cry.
This amused me. Probably because I've won far too many games against opponents who mulliganed aggressively for Leyline this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
Okay, I see what you mean. Of course I don't know your metagame. So if there are a lot of blue FoW decks it is probably okay to simply choose to draw in order to scout for blue decks and evade counters on your discard outlets. Also, the absence of black Discard spells is good news for DDDing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
Still I think that against decks of which you know that they don't have FoW/Daze, you should always cast your PImps, Tribes and Studies turn 1. It is right that there might occur a situation in which your opponent removes your outlet and you have do bin your hand but don't find any other Dredger. That's unlucky, but extremely rare. Actually I've rarely seen my opponent cast their Swords tPl or Path to Exile at my discard outlet. You should try to imagine their position: I could remove that Imp now but he'll drop his whole hand in response anyway and how high are my chances that he doesn't find (or already has) another Dredger. I better keep my Swords for an Ichorid, Grave-Troll, FKZ, Iona or whatever... And that's exactly what happens most of the time, at least from my expierience.
I see that the DDD strategy is quite reliable but the tempo loss is not worth it against non-blue decks.
But you're definitely right that Dredge can live with an opening 7 that doesn't have a discard outlet.
A friend using Ichorid won a big tourney last weekend. 114 players competed for a Mox Jet and he came out on top. I dropped out from the top 16 when I lost the last round to Zoo. Here are the photos of the event (with top 8 decklists): http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/...12843112063473
Hey guys I am going to a different area to play magic this week, but there's 1 match up I wanted to inquire about, as I am very unfamiliar with the match up. In case I fight against a Vengevine survival deck, can anyone let me know what to expect? Is this a match that I need a very aggressive hand? Or can is this something I can slow play as well? What usual hate should I expect? Thanks, I haven't fought the deck before so I am unfamiliar with it, but from what I've been hearing/reading it seems to be popular, so I wanted to be prepared and have an idea what to expect.
By the way, I play Non-LED dredge, with 15 lands, 11 dredgers, and 1 MD reanimation target.
I think you would expect to see faerie macabre after board. Once they have survival online, you've lost. They can recur macabre if they run emrakul SB as well, giving them unlimited gravehate once they get going. I would prefer to go off fast and not slowroll.
@ Shaboogs, wow thats a huge turnout! You guys must have a huge legacy scene! I actually have a friend in KL who is from the the Philippines and I play legacy with him (Owen). If only we can fly there to play. Maybe during the next GP Side event!
This was the 2nd largest turnout here in the Philippines this year (1st was the legacy side event at GP Manila with 127 players). It was nice to see Dredge winning such a big tournament here. Owen? Is he also known as owenz in the web? We know each other if he's the same guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
In order to answer this it would be nice to know what that one DR Target is. If it is Iona, that will definitely give you a good shot against VengeVival, for she stops their whole engine and simultaneously blocks away flying Vengevines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappa
Generally it will be very hard to win by slow rolling. Against landstill and the like you can do that without fearing much, for they don't have a clock. 3 flying Vengevines on turn 2, however, I would dare to say that is a clock.
At that point one has to differenciate, because your chances and strategy depend largely on the colors they play.
There are several lists around by now, that don't run blue any more. Against those you should just play as fast as you can and try to win as fast as possible.
Against lists with blue, you'll face pretty much the same problems as against Merfolk or Reanimator. You don't want to have your only discard outlet countered but slow rolling by DDDing could be too slow against their clock. Having multiple discard outlets in your opening hand will increase your chances to resolve one. For instance, if you are on the play and have two discard outlets and two lands in your opener, I would be aggressive and play them. In that scenario they will need 2 Force of Will plus pitch cards in order to counter your outlets, which is very unlikely. If you're on the draw, Daze is a much bigger threat and it could be a better strategy to start slowly by discarding a Dredger in your first Cleanup step.
Hate:
As stated above, Faerie Macabre will be a common threat. Most lists with Survival use her because they can tutor her up. Apart from that the usual hate artifacts Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus should be the most common hate pieces. Leyline of the Void and Yixlid Jailer are off-color, so they should be rare (note however lists with a black splash could run Yixlid for the same reasons as Macabre: Survival can search for it).
All in all, Nature's Claim would be a great anti-hate card, hitting Survival, Crypt, Relic as well as Leyline and Wheel of sun and Moon. But Grudge, Needle, Chain of Vapor or whatever you run should work as well as soon as you know what your opponent has.
EDIT: As far as Dread Return targets are concerned it should be noted that Iona is probably your best bet against VengeVival. Especially non-white lists which don't have Swords to Plowshares will have a really tough time getting past her. Iona is strictly better than Grave Trolls here because she can block flying Vengevines and because it will be quite hard to actually recur Vengevines without green spells (no Rootwallas, no Noble Hierarchs, or no Survival at all if they don't have it yet).
If you are discussing a single Dread Return target against vengevines, it would be Blazing Archon. Of course, white lists have removal, but this is the problem with Iona as well: if you name green, they remove it, if white, they cast green stuff and win. UG lists have pretty much nothing to stop any of your targets.
That is correct, Archon is awesome against them. But as I was also talking about game one, when a Dredge player won't have any Archons and due to the fact that Blazing Archon is very rare, even in the sideboard, I talked about Iona.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
And as you say it depends on their colors. UG can't win through Iona on green at all. GW doesn't have counter spells, so you can just play aggressively and your clock should be faster than theirs. So from my expierience the biggest problem will be lists that run UGW, for they have access to counter spells as well as white removal. But those lists are pretty rare as far as I know...
@Shaboogs
Regarding the DDD plan by going 2nd. Are you doing this game 1 or 3? I once tried to DDD on game 3 against MUC since they like to counter my discard outlets, however, seeing a Relic on turn 1 backed with counters from them is just... ugh.
EDIT: I mentioned game 1 coz I don't know if you're like me who likes to spy on people after ending your matches quickly. So it's possible you know what you're against game 1.
I choose to go 2nd almost all the time (with going against storm/belcher as the only exceptions). going 2nd also nets me 1 more card which could help me improve my opening hand in addition to being able to go the DDD route. The DDD route does change post board depending on what kind of hate they bring in but getting them to go first gives me an idea on what kind of hate they have and how I can deal with them. I also like to look around and watch other people's matches whenever I finish my matches quickly so that I can get an idea of the tournament meta.
Being on the draw against Zoo or whatever is pretty awful.
Also, what if you, like, mulligan?
Could you elaborate how awful it is going on the draw against zoo in your case? I've had no problems with zoo being on the draw (pre and post board). From my experience, you only lose to zoo if you kept a slow hand. You can DDD on your first turn then breakthrough, CC and/or DA+LED on the next (if you hit a dredger or two) and win. If I mulligan, I obviously drop the DDD plan and look for a better opening hand.
You must be very very lucky to always get "Dredger + Cephalid Coliseum + Breakthrough + other land" hands without mulliganing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
Sorry for the typo there. What I meant to say was you can drop a land and cast breakthrough or drop cephalid coliseum and LED and activate cephalid coliseum with LED or drop LED, activate it and flashback deep analysis on your second turn. Of course there are times when you can perform 2 of those draw effects mentioned. Although I don't always get "Dredger + Cephalid Coliseum + Breakthrough + other land" hands and this is just based on my experience but I get a hand with "dredger, coliseum, and LED" more often than I should so going second also helps me reach threshold to make the LED+CC on the first turn possible (but I still DDD on the first turn).Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
you must be fortunate to always draw Breakthrough/Study/Colisem/LED+Deep is Anusien's point, I think. And to never mulligan when the discard step is your only outlet.
Most decklists does have at least 10 or more of each component (land, dredger, draw effect) so having one of each in an opening hand should be consistent enough (at least consistent enough in my experience with the deck). Having a permanent discard outlet in your opening 7 is a bonus when your going second since you have the clean up step as an uncounterable discard outlet for your dredger.
I usually only choose to draw when going against slow blue with heavy counters (force in particular). However now I'm starting to doubt that option since I play firestorm postboard. I think being on the play and finding a better hand is more important than choosing to draw and pitching during the discard step. Being on the draw opens you up to crap like daze, spell pierce which are a pain. Mulliganning is very important and common when playing this deck. Choosing to draw IMO is not a very good idea in 90% of cases.
It's far far far less than 50% to have one of each with 10 cards for each role. I actually did the math at one point.Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
Multivariate hypergeometric distribution gives you a probability of .49 that you will draw one or more lands, one or more dredgers, and one or more draw spells when you have twelve lands, twelve dredgers, and twelve draw spells. With ten of each, p=.36.Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
Consider buying lottery tickets.
If you add the 8 discard outlets in the mix then it'll be p<.36 which means that it's more difficult to look for a discard outlet compared to the other components in your opening hand which is why I prefer to go second most of the times.
Have you guys ever played an LED version with 14+ lands? It's far easier to assemble Breakthrough/Careful Study -> crack LED in resp -> dredge. Not only that, but the ability to just hard cast creatures is extremely useful and underutilized IMO.
I'm playing 11 Dredgers, 6 draw (4 Breakthrough, 2 Careful Study) + 2 Deep Analysis, and 14 land (2 Citadels) and it's a lot more consistent than the typical 12 land setup, while also retaining the explosiveness of LED.
I still have room for 3 Ichorid, 2 Dread Return (3 would be best, but it's fair sacrifice), FKZ and Sphinx.
My SB has Tribes and the 4th Ichorid, so I can pretty easily transition into LEDless dredge for game 2 on the draw.
Sorry keys, I am a firm believer of non-led but 14 lands + led seems much better. If you need the speed in a combo-ish meta, I think your list looks very solid.
Ok just observations, I play the standard non-led lists with 4 of everything expect with 15 lands. I followed everyone's advise and cut an ichorid for the 15th land but I've noticed that dread return is a better cut. With just 3 ichorids, I can rarely flashback dread return (I run 2). I use my dudes to flash cabal therapies first and I rarely have enough to get out a dread return. And when I actually do flash it back for a golgari grave troll, it usually feels "win more". So is playing the 4th ichorid and just 1 dread return MD a good idea? I have the 2nd dread return in the board along with 2 targets. Cheers!
This was from a while back when I was tinkering with a stable LED hybrid.Quote:
Originally Posted by sa17dk
I don't know how I totally missed your post while I posted. But anyways, I played 4 rounds of swiss, having a 3-1 record. Losing my 3rd match vs Survival deck. I totally didn't have any experience playing against it. It's unfortunate that I did not see your post, when it's the very top of this page. I would have had changed my main decked dread return target, and followed your advise had I seen it. Iona is normally my DR target, but I wasn't so sure at the time so I took her out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
Here's the list that I had at the time.
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Tarnished Citadel
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
1 Darkblast
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
1 Angel of Despair
Sideboard:
2 Unmask
4 Nature's Claim
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Firestorm
1 Ancestor's Chosen
I won against Merfolk, then won against Zoo, lost against survival deck with vengevines, and almost lost against a BW Leyline/Helm of Obedience that had main decked Leyline and Bojuka bog and he even had tormod's crypt in the sideboard, and he apperantly had a main decked Moat which he told me he was hoping to see... what the heck.
If you are running as DR target just the GGT 2 DR is enought. Rely on your 4 ichorids. I always say: "never less than 4 ichorids".Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei