With the return of tribal Vial decks do you guys think that the Miracle version of the UW control decks scala is still preferable over the Stoneblade variants?
Printable View
With the return of tribal Vial decks do you guys think that the Miracle version of the UW control decks scala is still preferable over the Stoneblade variants?
Good question, and I'm actually not sure myself. I've always enjoyed wrecking Gobs/Merfs with an equipped guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
As many have already stated, fighting sophisticated Tribal.decs ain't no cakewalk despite Termi-effing-nutz. It's probably a good time to rock the full playset.
Edit: Here's a sample list that I can see working. Granted it doesn't deviate too much from the agreed upon config, but I like it:
4 BS
4 STP
4 Terminus
4 FOW
4 Top
2 CB
2 CS
3 Pierce
2 SCM
1 EE
1 O. Ring
1 Shackles
3 Jace
2 EtA
SB:
2 CB
2 Disenchant
4 S. Extraction
3 Fluster Storm
2 PTE
2 flex slots (i. e. Needle/EE/T. Reinforcements/Humility)
I've cut Clique for the time being due to combat dmg (outside of EtA) being an ineffective approach imo.
Merfolk? Go eat 4 Swords to Plowshares 4 Terminus and 3 Snapcaster Mage. After Boarding go eat 4 Red Elemental Blast and 3 Peacekeeper. When you've done that, go die.
I still think that merfolk is a hard matchup for UW miracle, having a stoneforge and batterskull/jitte is much much better then those terminus.
The same is against burn and some other matchups...
I don't know but if you check the last scg (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...num=0&limit=25)
there is one uw stoneblade with 3 terminus but no uw miracle control at all, this might be just a trend, but I see esperblade coming up with no lingering souls or lingering souls in the sideboard.
Love that list! Makes me consider the black splash again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorondor
Blade versions have Jitte and EE to run down aggro hordes and Batterskull for the lifegain. I didn't play the Miracle versions a lot but to me Terminus and Entreat look like a more inefficient way of doing the same thing.
For the combo matchups Miracle builds have Counterbalance but Blade versions splash black for discard and again achieve the same results more efficiently. I am currently completing my cardbase for an UW deck but from the testing I've done I can't find a compelling reason to go with the Miracle build over the Esper Blade (with discard MD and without lingering souls) even though I find Stoneblade decks kind of boring to play with.
jupjup! me too, also I would maybe go -1 trinket mage -1 top +1 jace +1 explosives. see esperblade thread for a new report about what I played the last weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
PLayed in a Mox Tournament this Weekend with:
4 StP
4 FoW
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Jace
3 Terminus
2 Entreat
3 EE
4 Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Snapcaster
4 Island
2 PLains
7 Fetch
4 Tundra
2 Sea
1 Mystic Gate
1 Riptide Lab
1 Academy Ruins
sb:
2 Path (Excellent)
1 Cursed Totem (terrible)
1 Baneslayer Angel (Excellent)
2 Surgical (3rd would of been fine but 2 was good)
3 CBalance
1 Humility (Probably want another for sneak and show)
1 Negate
1 Terminus
2 Vendillion Cliques (decent but not great)
1 Disenchant
record 4-2:
Lost to SHow and Tell. Where my draws were mediocre and his were very good matchup. Matchup seemed kind of bad due to lack of good sb cards (Surgical and Balance are great against most combo decks but not that one).
Lost to UR control. Nothing I could do about this. Matchup was basically unwinnable. No point dwelling on it.
Beat 2 Rug, 1 Maverick, 1 Nic Fit.
I think if you want to beat maverick and rug, my list was fantastic. The cursed totem was there to provide outs to Teeg+Mom. Game 1 your soft to control decks so that needs to be adressed.
Goblins and Merfolk didn't seem terrible either for this build, but again you pay for it with a softness to control decks.
what is the reason for the flusterstorm main instead of a third spell pierce? Was the flusterstorm bad once?
How did the EE perfom? What were it's best uses? Canadian?
Haha! Nice one.Quote:
Originally Posted by toor
I don't main EE but in the board it is highly useful. It's sweepers 5-6. Usually set on 1 it kills Mongooses/Delvers. Against GW, it also hoses mom and friends or Sylvan Library/Equip/Scavenging ooze, Thalia etc. Against stoneblade, it can kill a Jitte or a horde of tokens. It's very versatile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
I'm also very curious about baneslayer. How is it better than another entreat? Seems hilarious though, beating spell pierces with Baneslayer. Also, anyone try a sideboard Stoneblade plan? 3 SFM with 1 Batterskull seems like an ok SB plan.
I don't think it's worth dedicating 4 slots to MUs that are winnable w/o.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
General SB config
4 gy hate
2 Disenchant effects (possibly EE in 3-color versions)
2-4 CB
2-3 Flusterstorm / REB / Pierce
3 creature hate
1-2 flex slots
Really tough to squeeze those in there, since SFM.stuff can't replace PtE/Humility/Peacekeeper due to different functionality.
True, what I'd like is the increased clock. But just not enough space. I'm running this:
4 Surgical
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pierce
2 Clique
2 EE (Surprisingly versatile, I like it more than Path/Peacekeeper because it's fantastic against Stoneblade/Lingering Souls or against opposing Counterbalances)
2 Counterbalance (Dropped to 2 main, really bad in some matchups and really good in others. It's hit or miss so 2 main seems ok)
2 Disenchant (Card is still needed sorely against Mav's Choke, equip and Sylvan. Also fantastic against Stoneblade's equipment)
I've gone back to 2 Entreat main. Got my ass handed to me by Goblins without entreat. Entreat is the only way out against swarm strategies like Gobbos or other end game decks like Stoneblade. I Terminused 3 times and still got raped. I've been testing against way to much Tier one Aggro Control/Combo that I forget you need raw power to beat some fringe decks. Cut down to 2 Counterbalance and now playing zero Paths. The card is so bad against Merfolk/Stoneblade/Goblins. It's only really good against RUG that plays no basics. I really hate it when I path a SFM then they just go on and cast Jace with the extra land. Giving opponents a rampant growth really really sucks. I think EE is just better in the creature hosing role.
Kay guys I need you to give me a few last impressions on my Sideboard for Ghent. I wanted to keep it secret but I thought...not so many of you reading this will be playing me ... so in any way:
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Peacekeeper
2 Disenchant
2 Pithing Needle
I'd want to put 2 EEs in there to make my RUG-MU finally really positive..but where? Here are my boarding - plans if you feel like correcting them, go on :)
Canadian Threshold:
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor -1 Entreat the Angels -1 Vendilion Clique
+4 Red Elemental Blast
Sneak and Show:
-2 Jace the Mind Sculptor -4 Swords to Plowshares -4 Terminus
+3 Peacekeeper +4 Red Elemental Blast +2 Pithing Needle +1 Surgical Extraction
Reanimator:
-2 Vendilion Clique -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor -1 Terminus -4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Entreat the Angels
+4 Surgical Extraction +3 Peacekeeper +2 Pithing Needle
Maverick:
-2 Flusterstorm -2 Vendilion Clique -1 Counterbalance
+2 Disenchant +3 Peacekeeper
Stoneblade:
-4 Terminus -1 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Red Elemental Blast +2 Disenchant
Esperblade:
-4 Terminus -1 Counterspell
+1 Peacekeeper +4 Red Elemental Blast
Dredge:
-2 Counterspell -3 Counterbalance -2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+4 Surgical Extraction +3 Peacekeeper
Terminator:
-3 Terminus -2 Swords to Plowshares
+4 Red Elemental Blast +1 Disenchant
Spiral Tide:
-4 Terminus -4 Swords to Plowshares
+4 Surgical Extraction +4 Red Elemental Blast
Merfolk:
-2 Flusterstorm -2 Vendilion Clique -3 Counterbalance
+4 Red Elemental Blast +3 Peacekeeper
UR Delver:
-2 Vendilion Clique -1 Terminus -2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor -1 Entreat the Angels
+2 Disenchant +4 Red Elemental Blast
Goblins:
-3 Counterbalance -2 Flusterstorm
+3 Peacekeeper +2 Pithing Needle
Thank you, Greetings
Reanimator:
-2 Vendilion Clique -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor -1 Terminus -4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Entreat the Angels
+4 Surgical Extraction +3 Peacekeeper +2 Pithing Needle
Disagree on bringing out the Cliques, which are huge in response to Show and Tell.
Also, depending on what else you are able to side out in addition, Needle against High Tide with Candelabra as well as REBs against Dredge should be considered.
wtf PtE is bad against Merfolk? I've always thought it is one of the best cards there. PtE in response of equipping is also quite good.
Oh I didn't post my mainboard, my bad:
//Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
//Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowsharesa
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Flusterstorm
3 Counterspell
//Walker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Softlock
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
//Lands
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
How would you board in the Reanimator-MU? It's pretty much the only one I havn't tested against :/ (and Gobbos)
Greetings
ok where to start, serious wtf you are playing 2 flusterstorm main? for what reason? I don't get that sry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
Terminus is good against Esperblade since they play lingering souls, cliquen, snapcaster and maybe even geist. I would at least keep 2 in the deck. Against Maverick I would keep cliquen in there, they are flying and might be a real clock against maverick or they have to waste a stp on them and you peacekeeper will stick longer on the board. Overall I think you have to improver your sideboard againt RUG, I miss PTE and also EE as you also mentioned.
I would probably play a SB like that (alo I don't know your maindeck):
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 EE
1 Humility
2 Peacekeeper
2 PTE
1 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
edit: saw your post to late, I add a replay maybe later today. I would for sure cut flusterstorm for spell pierce and also board out all CB against maverick. Against Reanimator Humility is awesome and 4 Surgical are maybe too much because the mostly go for S&T and a peacekeeper won't save you against a griselbrand.
Why do some lists use 4 ponder and some none? Is this related to some other card (like use ponder if and only if you also use card X) or about the metagame or style or what? My list is similar to Raphael Levys and I am nearly always glad if I draw a ponder and I can even flash it back with the snapcaster mage later.
Edit: Plus it makes your sideboard stronger as it increases the chance to draw the cards you borded in.
Really enjoy the lively discussion. Keep up the good work guys!
Flusterstorm is better at fighting unfair combo decks with countermagic (e.g. they play FOW, daze, misd etc..). Since I expected the combo decks to be Reanimator, High Tide, Sneak and Show it seemed like the right call. Against Jace decks its actually not worse then pierce anyways since it can protect your countermagic. E.g. instead of piercing their jace and FOWing their counter, you can FOW their jace and flusterstorm their counter. Was happy with Flusterstorm and would run the split again, maybe even 2.
EE is the nuts against RUG. But its good against all creature decks (except goblins and even their it isn't terrible since its more outs to vials and lackeys).
Baneslayer won 3 games single handedly. Twice (once UB delver and once maverick) they sided out all of their removal and couldn't race. Against RUG her majesty can't be pierced, flusterstormed or blasted (Which makes her a good threat). She also has a cute interaction with Show and Tell/Sneak Attack and Griselbrand 0_o. Also Goblins lol.
Path's are what made the Merfolk matchup feel good to me.
My issue with this deck's combo matchups is that you don't clock fast enough. hence the VC. Riptide and Karakas make them sweet out of the board as well.
Cool idea on peacekeeper. Not sure if its better then humility (cept maybe against Merfolk).
I played in the SCG: StL Legacy Open this weekend. Ended up 35th (out of 223?) with a 5-2-1 record. If I had slightly better breakers my list would've been in the Top 32, but I didn't see any other dedicated UW Miracle decks in the crowd. I lost second round to the eventual winner, Matt Hoey (1-2). The tournament made me want to run something extra for the control match up--which I feel might be Stoneforge--because I was pushed for time in all of these matches. I was surrounded by Esper Blade and other control mirrors for most of the day. Yargh. I'll try to write up a little report later tonight.
Ill be working on Boardingplans with this new sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 EE
2 Peacekeeper
1 Humility
2 Disenchant
1? Elspeth ?
That would be great. I thought we should beat esepr blade, since they dont have a real answer for our CB lock. Mabye the Lingering Souls.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
4 Delver of Secrets, extra Clique? Too bad?Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
Path is ok against folk. The thing is, its fighting for slots with EE. Which would you rather run? I'd prefer EE because it is currently even more fantastic against folk due to their + four 2cc cards. Even @1 it kills vials and cursecatchers which is sorely needed.
Ideally I'd have 2 ee and 2 path sb, but no space at the moment because we really need the combo hate. Clique definitely helps the clock a ton. That's why I'm also playing factories. Having some issues with caverns of souls, not sure if factories should be wastes to mess with cavern. Wasteland is also more relevant than factory against combo.
35th at SCG St. Louis, 5-2-1
Maindeck (60):
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
1 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
Sideboard (15):
2 Disenchant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Meddling Mage
2 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
2 Porphyry Nodes
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
Round 1: Reanimator (W, 2-0)
Game 1: He had to mulligan to 4 or 5. Turn 1: Land, Top. Turn 2: Land, CB, he Forces removing Snapcaster (random). Turn 3: Land, play a second CB, and it resolves. I then locked him out of the game with a CB and a Jace.
Game 2: He had to mulligan to 6 this game. I keep mana up for counterspells, eventually EOT a Vendilion Clique on him, and then ride Clique to victory.
Round 2: Esper Stoneblade run by Matt Hoey (L, 1-2)
Game 1: I never got a chance to assemble Counterbalance, and he dropped a lot of Stoneforges on me. At some point, I think some tokens got EE’d. Game one ended up eating at least 15 minutes off the clock. He ended up winning off Jace ultimate.
Game 2: I assemble CB pretty quickly, and proceed to get some marginal advantage off countering his threats. I land a Jace, which I end up running the counters down on to deal with a Stoneforge. After I drop an Elspeth he concedes with about 15 minutes left in the round.
Game 3: Had 2 lands, brainstorm, CB, swords, spell pierce in my opener. Never saw a third land or a Top, and he eventually gets there with Stoneforge, Clique, and Batterskull.
He dropped Stoneforge (in multiples) pretty early every game.
Round 3: BUG Control (L, 0-2)
Game 1: I resolve an early Top/CB, which proves to be irrelevant. He plays a Deed, a Liliana, and Jace. He also gets Loam online. This is definitely a match up I would side CB out for.
Game 2: He resolves a Liliana and Jace again. Seemed like nothing I did really mattered in this match up. Felt pretty one sided because his power cards were all 3 or 4 drops, he had discard, and got Loam online pretty quickly both games.
Round 4: Goblins (W, 2-0)
Game 1: He opens with Vial, which I FOW. Turn 2 he plays Goblin Piledriver, and follows that up Turn 3 with Goblin Guide (which I haven’t seen before). He resolves three or four more goblins, but Swords, Terminus and Snapcaster are able to deal with everything until I can Entreat for 2.
Game 2: More of the same, but I end up Jace ultimating this game. Between the two games I never saw a Goblin Ringleader. Which was good news. :)
Round 5: Esper Stoneblade (D, 1-1-1)
Game 1: I think he EE’d my Angel tokens, and then proceeded to Jace me out.
Game 2: Killed a Geist or two with Terminus. I had him locked out of the game for several turns, but it took some number of turns to find a threat. Most of the time was wasted in this game with him staring at his hand trying to figure out how to beat the CB lock... which I believe is why we ended up in turns.
Game 3: He ticked a Jace up to 13 counters, and then I EOT’d a Clique into play and hit it back down to 7 counters. We go to turns, and he’s unable to kill me while I'm sitting at 1 life.
Round 6: Lands (W, 2-1)
Game 1: Should’ve scooped earlier than I did. Let about 25 minutes run off the clock, before his board state was locked down completely. I kept dinking off life here and there with Entreats and Cliques, but only got him down 5 before he locked me out.
Game 2: Surgical for his control pieces (EE, Glacial Chasm) and Pithing Needle (naming Maze of Ith). There were about 5 minutes left on the clock when this ended.
Game 3: We didn’t have enough time to play out game three because of the clock, but he conceded without me asking. I was just gonna accept the draw, and most likely my shot at cashing. Thankfully he he was tired of playing for the day.
Round 7: The Rock (W, 2-0)
Game 1: Some combination of Swords, Terminus and Snapcaster bought time until I played 3 or 4 Angels off an Entreat at his EOT.
Game 2: Some combination of Path, Swords, Terminus, and a Counterbalance made it safe for Jace to ultimate.
Round 8: Dredge (W, 2-0)
Game 1: He mulligans to 5. I FOW his Careful Study. Spell Pierce an LED, then won off an Entreat for 2.
Game 2: He mulligans to 6. I FOW his opening Careful Study, and Wasteland his Gemstone Mine. He eventually discards a Troll at EOT, which I Surgical. Next turn he discards a Stinkweed Imp, which I Snapcaster the Surgical at. I think this left his deck at 3-4 Dredgers total. I rode Clique and Snapcaster to victory after that.
Some Notes:
* Entreat/Clique (7) finished off more games than Jace (3) or Elspeth (1)
* Spell Pierce in the main seemed pretty good
* Porphyry Nodes was pretty worthless all day (might’ve been different if I had played RUG or Maverick)
* Needle was pretty useful all day
* I got a lot of positive comments for playing quickly even though I was on CB. However, I think this deck can easily suffer from having opponents play slowly against you.
The control matches in rounds 2, 3, 5, and 6 all went right up until turns, or actually went to turns. Not getting to shut my brain off in between rounds seemed less than awesome. Given that, I only made two noteable play mistakes with the deck over eight hours of play – thankfully, neither mistake actually cost me a game. Overall, I wish I had a better way to put pressure on the board earlier than turns 4+ in the control match ups, which is why I might try to inject Stoneforge.
Feel free to ask questions. :)
Why meddling mage? I find the card very risky because if you call the wrong card, it's useless. Do you call sneak or show? Entomb or careful study? Infernal tutor or burning wish? I'd play more flusterstorm or pierces. Since you already main pierce, my pick would be flusterstorm. The card is better against combo.
I have never found Meddling Mage to be that risky. Against Sneak Show, I usually name Show and Tell or Wipe Away, and then Pithing Needle Sneak Attack. I don't bring them in against Reanimator.
So why not flusterstorm? The card is like U- Counter Target Instant or Sorcery Spell, Split Second. It gives opponent's fits especially if you hold on to it as your final counter, a storm 4 Flusterstorm is almost always the end of a counter war.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
You can also board in Flusterstorm against reanimator. Why waste space in the board? Flusterstorm is also very useful in the Control Mirror. It would have helped alot against Jace etc during a counterwar. I actually like flusterstorm more than Spell Pierce in the control mirror because when it's really late in the game, Spell Pierce is really terribad ala Daze. Flusterstorm on the other hand is seldom dead. In a late game counterwar, a high storm Flusterstorm is sick while Spell Pierce gets pitched to force. I always advocate a split of Fluster/Pierce. Pierce is more versatile early in the game while Flusterstorm is the more powerful, though narrower counter. Catching the T1 Entomb with a Fluster is always sweet since they have to double counter it :)
Btw Grats on the good finish!
Thanks! I thought about 2x Flusterstorm in the board, but it would've been a last second change and those usually hurt me more than help me. I stuck with the Mages because they could give me a random answer to stuff I didn't expect, especially in a big field--Thopter Foundry, etc. I'll give the Flusterstorms a whirl in my upcoming locals, they seem good since my biggest annoyance of the day was with control.
Someone please elaborate on Timely Reinforcements and Porphyry Nodes, please. These are the last two possible sideboard inclusions I am looking into.
Leaving for Ghent on Thursday, will be doing some last minute playtesting in Belgium, but would be really great to hear you experiences, especially on Nodes against Maverick and Timely Reinforcements against Swarm Aggro.
I played against Maverick with Nodes during my last tournament, and it was quite awesome. I only ran one copy, but whenever I drew it, it would either dominate the board or buy me a ton of time, both of which are really good in this deck. Sure, its not very good vs. a bazillion dudes on the other side, but it can handle a few beaters if you accompany it with some counters or other removal. I'm considering going up to 2 copies SB.
Can't elaborate on Reinforcements, brought it in vs. RWB Zombies, drew it, but killed him without having to cast it (or it was Thoughtseized away, can't quite remember).
Timely is nuts against any swarm or burn deck. I was playtesting against U/R Delver and he got me to three life just before I was able to stabilize. I top decked a Timely with him tapped out. Cast it and go up to 9 life... He sighs and continues the game. Next turn I snapcaster and cast it again... He scoops. That's just how good it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
6 life is huge in Legacy. It's about a third of your starting life, and if a deck is going to kill you in 6 turns, that means you have about 2 more turns - that's not counting the blockers. It can get you up to 4 turns to deal with the board state. That's insane with a deck running Top and shuffle effects!
I have no experience with nodes. To me it looks slow and clunky. I'm not sure I understand the usefulness. Does it target? Can mom protect the babies?
Thanks for all the input thus far, you guys are great! TR looks really promising. Nodes might actually turn out too slow. Regarding your question, it does not target, therefore Mom can't protect anything from it.
So here's the problem: how do I get two foil Timely Reinforcements until Saturday???
I used to play timely reinforcements in Stoneblade. Mainly because there was no countertop in Stoneblade. Control decks have a bad time against burn or really fast aggro decks. If you expect ur delver and burn, it's a great fit. However its not as critical anymore because this deck runs countertop. If you can stabilize early, countertop can stop most of the burn to your face.
It's still a solid card, but pretty narrow.
I'm with you Ivanpei. TR is nice. In a given Meta. I do not expect Ghent to be that kind of meta though. It doesn't do anything vs Maverick and helps only little vs Canadian. I'd suggest to play some EEs in that spot, as they are more useful against the (probably) most played deck --> Canadian Threshold. I woulnd't worry about UR / R with this deck in addition. Vs Merfolk it doesn't seem too supergood too - vs Goblins - no idea, havn't played the MU yet. Conclusio: Play something else in this spot.
Greetings
In Amsterdam, I was playing 50% of my matches against any kind of Stoneblade. Name a sideboard card you'd specifically want against that matchup!
Vendilion CliqueQuote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Disenchant
Manriki-Gusari (fringe and only in Stoneblade shells to begin with)