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I've never run less than two maindeck. Card is absurd. I even run a third in the board. Legacy is currently a format where you can profitably run maindeck Relic of Progenitus in decks that never want to use their graveyard, and in that kind of format the Ooze is amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
What ZaganOstia says is basically it. You are trying to hard. There was an article on ChannelFireball about their Standard RG Ramp deck that played 4 Huntmasters. They started with 1 as a GSZ target, then went to 2 and quickly to 4. The key is that it is a good card on his own even without flipping and flipping it back and forth is a great potential bonus. It is a completely optional upside and there is no need to pass the turn if you got better stuff to do and/or suspect they might have an Instant nor do you have to build the deck around it. If it happens it is awesome, if it doesn't happen it is still fine.
Compared to another staple of this deck you get two 2/2s and two life which is basically a four Mana Kitchen Finks. It is usually a bit better (especially vs. Swords to Plowshares and Jace TMS) but not enough to be worth an additional Mana if that was it. The potential upside is what makes it worth one extra Mana compared to Finks.
Finaly got some time to test Punishing Fire build and it rocks.
Lands (23)
2 Swamp
4 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Broodmate Dragon
Spells (27)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Innocent Blood
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Punishing Fire
3 Living Wish
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Green Sun's Zenith
Sideboard
3 Duress
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Shriekmaw
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Grave Titan
3 Trinisphere
I faced no mana problems while running both Liliana and PFire and, as mentioned earlier, the combination of two is nuts.
Tested Burning Wish, it was not that bad, but two things made it leave my list: 1) Most times I wished for removal of some sort, but there's Maelstrom Pulse to cover everything for less amount of mana, and 2) Living Wish can grab Grove of Burnwillows.
Huntmaster's overall effectieveness against field is on par with Thrun if not one thing: 2+ life saved my ass multiple times vs burn/sligh decks, so 2 Huntmasters stay in. I started with 3, but it's nice to be able to tutor for Scavenging Ooze with both Wish and Zenith.
As for Combo hate, my plan is to use discard, then drop Trinisphere and/or Wish for Magus of the Moon. Magus wins some matchups all by himself, so I suggest it to everyone who runs Living Wish and red mana.
Other cards are more or less obvious and I will be glad to hear your opinions about my list.
Wow. Going red instead of white seems to be the way to go. There was always something about going academy rector --> boss enchantment that makes me hang on, but I'm probably playing an inferior list. It's ironic that Broodmate looks so good with moat.
Went 6-3 at Indy, missing day two by literally one win. I had a round one bye, then proceeded to beat Dredge and Goblins, before dying to GW Maverick and Stoneblade. Then I beat BUG Thresh, Canadian Thresh, died to GW Maverick again, and beat Canadian Thresh again for vengeance from the 8th round. The Maverick losses annoy me, because I think that between 5 games I saw literally one Pernicious Deed. I also had a little bit of mana screw against the second Maverick deck, although that was partially my fault by keeping a horrible hand g2.
I don't really have time at the moment to do any kind of a full report, but I will note the following:
-) Baneslayer is absolutely nuts. She won me multiple games just by being Baneslayer, and having multiple flying threats to get over Moat was definitely relevant.
-) Super secret sideboard tech: Carpet of Flowers. I trimmed out Chains, Stony Silence, and Selkie for a triple of them Friday night. It's a beautiful backup mana source, and it single-handedly won me multiple games against Canadian Thresh. One game my opponent had a triple-Wasteland hand, but I had double Carpet of Flowers, and they gave me enough mana to keep myself afloat until I dug out of that situation.
-) I resolved like three Tsunamis, and they were marvelous every time. Of the three, my opponent was only able to dig out of it once, and by that point it was far, far too late to do anything.
I've been thinking about Crime // Punishment.
This card looks really good. It costs the same as an Engineered Explosives that you'd activate the turn it comes into play, and its quicker than Pernicious Deed. Alternatively it gives you a threat by stealing a goyf or knight. It also dodges stifle. This deck doesn't have the mana problems to cast it either, and you can run more than 4 deeds this way.
Hey, I suggested that card in this very thread! Hadn't put in enough testing with it in relevant matchups to actually determine how well it performs in this deck though, but I'm glad someone did the legwork for me. :cool: Sorry you missed day two, but congrats on the finish anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Ah, excellent! I definitely missed that post -- good thing that great minds think alike, then, I suppose. As a backup ramp source it was awesome...I think that I wasn't boarding properly with it, though, since I was boarding as I usually do (shaving expensive threats that are too slow for specific matchups, esp. tempo), instead of adapting to using Carpet. With Explorers and Carpets, you can easily go big in games two and three vs tempo, which usually you can't do after they see how the deck works. If you have Canadian Thresh in your meta, Carpet is -the- go-to answer IMO. Stoneblade is a little more subjective...their lists can vary greatly between pilots.
For the straight B/G version I have seen a version run tragic slip in the dismember slot. It seems interesting
A bit disappointing that no Nic finished in Indy. Good job Arian though.
But I feel that the deck was kind of underplayed, the Punishing Fire version can certainly beat RUG, Maverick and UW. Dredge is a SB thing, only Solidarity is really unpleasant. Not sure about the Esper deck matchup, Lingering Souls seems like sick tech.
I've played a couple of matches on both sides of the Lingering Souls/Nic Fit equation, and with straight G/B it's pretty miserable. They get an entire air force with one card and it takes a Deed or Pulse to clear it out. You still have the Veteran Explorer/Jace problem in that matchup as well, alongside the huge annoyance of Batterskull if your opponent actually understands how to manipulate the card's abilities in this matchup.
That specific list appears to be pretty manageable with a Punishing Fire build though, as that deck doesn't have good ways to keep you off your Groves.
Alright, after 13 hours on the road today getting home I don't really have much to say that's intelligent or even rational. I will note though RE: Tao that I honestly only saw one, MAYBE two other people even trying to play with Veterans at Indy, for the main event anyway. There may have been some in side events...I dunno. The one I can remember for sure seeing was straight G/B, and I think that the phantom maybe other sighting was G/B as well, but I might be just confused. Either way, I honestly think that it's more of a case that nobody played the deck -- I think that everyone else who was going to audibled to Maverick last minute. I'll try to post something more elaborate tomorrow. For now, I'm going to go pass out.
A friend of mine played the BGW pod version (he plays pod in all formats!) and had one bye. I "THINK" he went 5-3. I saw him get some sweet yosei recursion wins though. His game1s seemed to last forever since I saw 2 of his game 2s end in a draw (though he won the 1st).
i am not overly surprised that it is underrepresented. I have not played against the deck in the large legacy tournys, besides playtesting with him. (though i will prolly need to switch out maverick if he decides to play at the lgs with it)
I played G/B in Indy this past weekend.
I can post the exact list if you want later, but I am at work and I was tweaking the build it right up until the point of registering the deck so I may forget the exact build.
Rnd 1: Bye
(1-0)
Rnd 2: Dredge
Lets not talk about this one, I made 3 of the dumbest play mistakes in ONE turn to cost myself the game.
(1-1)
Rnd 3 & 4: Natural Order & Sneak&Tell (Don't have my notes so order my be backwards)
(2-1)
(3-1)
Rnd 5: Storm (Tendrils of Agony)
My opponent got warnings for slow play, so much so that a judge came and sat next to him and continued to tell him to move it along, of course this made it go to game 3 and he beat me in turn 4 of overtime after his 3rd silence in a row.
(3-2)
Rnd 6: UW Blade
(3-3)
Rnd 7: RUG
(4-3)
Decided to drop after this round and give my opponent the win due to the fact that I had no chance of making day two and I was super hungry.
I can expand on these games later, back to work.
Yesterday i played the exact Punishing Nic Fit list that eq.firemind posted not long ago. Thanks for sharing!
The tourney went well, i top 4ed 49 man tourney and that's more than i expected since i didn't really have time to test matchups and all.
Brief synopsis (as far as i remember, my notes suck):
Round 1 - Burn. 2-1, i try to strip his burn first and then ramp with Explorer. He almost got me, but i stabilize on Huntmaster and then Baloth.
Round 2 - RUG. 1-2. I can't remember first round, i think Delver got unanswered and i got my Top Forced. Second game he makes a mistake and boards in Counterbalance that didn't really counter anything and i got something going, i forgot what. 3rd game he had that nice 1st turn Delver into gas and i mulled to 6 where i got 3 lands- a fetch and 2 nonbasics. I keep but he Stifles my fetch and Wasted me, plays 2 Brainstorms and Goyf and that's all she wrote.
Round 3 - Reanimator. i won 2-1. I discard his Entomb and he doesn't draw into creatures. I cast Ooze, he Forces, then gets Study and Reanimates Iona on green. I mise Innocent Blood from the top and win with Fires (he was on 5 after Reanimate). Second game, he resolves Jin-Gintaxias which i manage to destroy with Fire, but the draw 7 got him enough to win. Third game it was stalemate and i ripped Ooze to win on the spot.
Round 4 - Burn with Lavamancer. i won 2-0, basically same as game one, strip their hand, then accelerate into Deed and then Huntmaster and/or Living Wish. He also played Ball Lightnings, but i chumped with tokens and Huntmasters. Opponent was kinda flooded all the time, at times i didn't have targets for Therapy, but did it for Explorer.
Round 5 - RUG. Can't remember the details. First game i Therapy him, then Explorer and he clearly isn't happy. I drop Deed and Huntmaster i think. Second game he put me on 6, but is in topdecking mode, so i Wish for Magus so he needs 2 bolts or 1 Bolt plus threat, which he doesn't.
Round 6 - Esper Blade, i won 2-0. Throughout the first game I Fired 3 of his Jaces, 6 of his tokens (weren't really a threat, but i wanted to preserve Deed) and gained him like 10 life. Then i spinned Top and saw Therapy, Wish, Dragon. he Forced Therapy and that was it. Second game was kinda similar, he was flooded and didn't have enough to put any pressure on me. After the game he tells me he got really flooded. Seems that thining out lands for your opponents doesn't do enough:)
Round 7 - RUG, i won 2-0. First turns he Ponders and i Top for lands. Then he drops 2 waves of dudes. First wave i manage to Fire Delver, then second wave I find a lucky Deed with top when i'm on 6 and i clear the board of Mongoose, Goyf, Snapcaster, Delver. Second game i think i also Therapy him, he Brainstorms in response and draws 3 lands of the top, then hides something on top, which get shuffled away when i flashback Therapy on Explorer. Since i see his grip is bunch of nonbasics, i wish for Magus, then lock him out with Lili+Huntmaster+Fire.
Semifinals - Gw 12-post Eldrazi I lost 0-2. First game he gets Exploration first turn and i don't get any discard, so he gets Titan and then Emrakul. Game 2, i slow him down with Magus, but i don't have basic Swamp, so i can't Innocent Blood Titan away and drop Broodmate. He drops another Titan and ramps to 15 lands, then drops Emmy again.
So i finished 3-4th and got Bayou and Plateau. I dodged all the bad matchups (combo i guess?) and fed on tempo strategies and Burn all day.
The last match was pretty unfavorable i guess. He basically did to me what i did to all those thresh decks whole day and i guess that's karma..
All in all this is really nice deck for current meta. Punishing Fire was all around awesome and better than Swords most of the time.
Wow, that's actually more than I expected from my crappy deckbuilding skills :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by zalachan
I've got couple of questions:
1) How usable was Trinisphere?
2) Did you Wished for Grove just to assemble manabase versus unlucky draws/tempo strategies?
I mean, they can only have that much wastelands and Grove taps for that :r: to burn their Delver with PFire...
3) How often did you Zenith for Witness?
With PFire recursion Witness feels less and less needed...
Quote:
Originally Posted by eq.firemind
1) I boarded it against Burn and didn't really see it. I guess IF you draw all the discard first and Trini later, it can be good, but as i mentioned, i didn't get to see the effect.
2) I haven't really Wished for Grove whole day. At one moment i wished i had a basic Swamp to wish for, but that was marginal case in the last game when i was under Magus. Against tempo i Wished for Shriekmaw but idk if that is the correct choice. I never lacked red mana when i had Fire against Delver, but in the mentioned scenario i probably would go for Grove.
3) I never really did it. I searched mostly for Huntmaster or Explorer, and once i did for a Dragon. But Witness was still good when i drew it. The irony is, that more than once i recurred Punishing Fire with it, because i didn't have the Groove:laugh: But mostly i just returned fetches to fix my basics.
The wishlist seems good and well rounded, but maybe a wishable sweeper wouldn't be that bad. Something similar to Caldera Helion? Just brainstorming though.
Just for comparison I posted a Punishing Fire list with Wish a while ago, too. It has the Hellion in the Wishboard.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post621942
Quote:
Originally Posted by zalachan
I realize it's usually harder to get triple black in Jund lists than it is to get double red, but I feel like Massacre Wurm has a lot of upside as a Living Wish target, compared to Caldera Hellion. He generally leaves you with a better body, and he's not going to kill any of your dudes. Granted, he does kill less stuff than Hellion, but with the general lack of tribal decks in today's metagame, the difference between killing an x/3 and killing an x/2 seems more marginal than it used to when Merfolk and Goblins were more prevalent concerns. Also, Hellion works as an Explorer sac outlet, but I feel like this matters less than how he kills himself if you don't have anything to sac to him. Besides Explorer, we have no incentive to kill our own dudes, and we already have plenty of ways to throw him under the bus. And last but not least, Wurm has the two life for each creature killed benefit, which can help out given this deck's slow clock. Anyways, I've liked Wurm as a Wish target in testing, he makes Maverick players go seriously on tilt. I did find that tweaking the manabase of a Jund list to accommodate triple black was a significant strain, but not impossible. And while you're already there, you get to run Liliana alongside P Fire. ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
I can't possibly see how you can reliably get tripple black.
I for one think it is almost impossible to play Liliana in Punishing Fire Nic Fit.
Show me the manabase!
Yeah, triple Black won't work reliably enough. I think a very good Wish target atm is Sulfur Elemental. Useful vs. Maverick to get Mothers/Mindcensors if you dont have a Deed and useful to get Lingering Soul tokens.
man this thread has been losing activity lately..
im getting sick of the punishing fire version, is pretty awsome against jace, the mind sculptor but i cant deal with combo and fast decks (except burn, ive been having a lot easier time against burn game 1 with a jund build).. im thinking in going back to rock with an enlightened tutor sideboard package. anyone tried that before?
no more academy rector and recurring nightmare they're just too slow if you cant manage to veteran explorer in the first couple of turns.
with enlightened tutor (maybe even a 1 or 2 of MD) we can build the academy rector package more consistently, even tho we cant play unfair high CC enchants (timmy enchants didnt work anyway).
also i've been running ensnaring bridge on the sideboard, maybe its the MTGO meta but theres show and tell, sneak attack, eureka, hypergenesis, natural order and 12 post eldrazi everywhere so its been really useful.
I came up with a list recently that pushes for consistency over late game bombs and is a blast to play. I went 3-0 at my LGS this past weekend, defeating UR burn, Dredge, and Maverick. I'm going to post it as there's been little activity lately, and I'd love to hear some feedback. Excuse the lack of card tags, but these cards are all stock and recognizable anyway.
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Island
SB:
3 Tsunami (High Tide, StoneBlade, Canadian Thresh)
2 Dark Blast (Maverick)
1 Cranial Extraction (Combo)
1 Loaming Shaman//Gaddock Teeg (Combo, Dredge)
4 Duress (Combo)
4 Leyline of the Void (Dredge, Combo)
Why Fact or Fiction? For me, it was initially a toss up between Intuition and Gifts Ungiven. However, I wanted the blue splash to be minimal, and both Intuition and Gifts inclined me to start including one-ofs in the form of Engineered Explosives, Academy Ruins, Life from the Loam, Raven's Crime, and a plethora of other singletons that I felt would create for more inconsistencies than I'd like.
It was as I flipped through some of my cards that I stumbled across Fact or Fiction, unplayed since my MUC days. It's perfect. It is 4 cc, which helps you curve out (strangely possible for this kind of deck) and, since we're trying to take advantage of large amounts of land, is preferable to the 3 cc Intuition. Also, it drops a full 5 cards split between the graveyard and hand which, in a deck running two Recurring Nightmare and 3 Eternal Witness, is like a d5. On top of all of this, Fact or Fiction has an amazing effect on your opponent--it puts players on tilt like nothing else. Seeing, for instance, a Pernicious Deed, Diabolic Edict, second Fact or Fiction, Green Sun's Zenith, and Eternal Witness with six to seven land in play is wilting for the opposition.
In short, it puts the engine fully online, and rewards the deck for playing with so many multiples. Also, I believe it ideal for all our creatures to be GSZ-able. This deck is, in ways, a descendant of the old SurviVeteran decks that did their best to survive the first three turns, then on the back of a deadly enchantment (Pernicious Deed here, SotF there) turn the game in our favor. With this in mind, our tutor must be of utmost versatility and our deck one of utmost resiliency.
Hm. That is all.
long time lurker in this thread now, and i really need to speak my mind..... i love the looks of this deck as i allways was a ROCK-player (oldschool and new one)
when i first saw this deck i fell in love with it, i am just lacking time and money right now to get the missing cards for it
anyway, a few things i did not really get is why would it be needed to splash a 3rd color, the deck works quite fine in only GB or am i missing something?
the whitesplash seem so extremely slow to me, and the redsplash for punishing fires seems overkill to me as this deck allready plays 3-4 deed plus spotremoval
i have to admit i somehow like the bluesplash für fact or fiction, i thought of a few scenarios at it really is a "now your screwed-spell", because everything in this deck gives sick amount of cardadvantage or is at least hard to deal with
@D. Watta, i was wondering why you use diabolic edict instead of some spotremoval, or is it because you are allready satisfied with pulse and deed covering everything else? in that case why not liliana of the veil, as it would have more value than diabolic edict
thanks
I can just speak from my experience: Currently Liliana has kind of a hard time staying alive on her own. Recently I ran into a lot of decks playing Manlands&Planeswalkers and/or a flashy creature where the +1 did nothing and she got toasted by factories. Also Sneak Attack as a kind of excuse where you could still make them sacrifice the sneaked creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroSteve
I originally tried innocent blood instead of liliana but the problem is the same, except that blood could also save yourself from a Lackey. Anyhow now I'm also testing 3 edicts.
@AggroSteve
Diabolic Edict is great because you can actually flash it back. It is also guaranteed card advantage when you resolve a Fact or Fiction.
EDIT: Scratch that, I was thinking about Chainer's Edict.
On unrelated news, I made top 8 of CMT Ottawa yesterday losing the first round to NO Bant. I was playing a straight BG version that I really didn't expect to perform too well because I initially intended to play GBw but defaulted to GB due to card availlability. Here's the list:
Creatures (12)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Grave Titan
Instant/Sorcery (15)
2 Darkblast
2 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse
Artifact/Enchantment (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers (5)
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands (22)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Treetop Village
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
Sideboard (15)
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Damnation
4 Duress
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Gigapede
Round 1: 2-0 Bant Aggro
Round 2: 1-2 Stoneblade (Lost to Jace and Elspeth)
Round 3: 2-0 Burn
Round 4: 2-1 Death and Taxes
Round 5: 2-1 SnT/Hypergenesis Combo
Round 6: 2-0 Affinity
Round 1/8: 1-2 NO Bant (Lost to Elspeth)
Afterthoughts:
-Jace and Elspeth remain constant issues for Nic Fit and I intend to remedy that with Trample (Kodama of the North Tree, Treetop Village).
-Innocent Blood is Therapy #5-8 and makes me want to look back into Abyssal Persecutor as he is right on the curve to fight Planeswalkers post-Explorer/Therapy.
-Ooze and Finks were sided out nearly every game and Volrath's Stronghold would have been better off being a Treetop Village (12 creatures).
Let me preface what I am about to say is that I don't get a great deal of time to play anymore, despite still enjoying doing so. This is the second time taking nicfit to a tournament, and my first time splashing red. 25 Dudes showed for an unlimited ruby @ Worlds Collide in the dirty Shwa
The list:
5 forest
2 swamp
1 mountain
3 bayou
1 badland
1 tagia
4 verdant catacombs
3 tagia
1 windswept heath
1 phyrexian tower
1 arbor dryad
2 broodmate dragon
1 thrun, the last troll
1 troll ascetic
1 wickerbough elder
1 kitchen finks
4 veteren explorer
1 eternal witness
1 scavenging ooze
3 maelstrom pulse
3 pernicious deed
2 dismember
1 Innocent Blood
3 sensei's divining top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal therapy
3 liliana of the viel
2 inquisition of kozilek
Board:
4 mindbreak trap
3 extripate
1 nilith spellbomb
1 damnation
1 tormods crypt
1 eternal witness
2 obstinate baloth
2 ancient grudge
A quick run down, Broodmate, and ancient grudge were awesome every time I saw them. I choose to splash red was for grudge, and broodmate seemed like a great choice to go along with it, innocent blood was also a new addition, but I never saw it the entire tournement.
Quicky report, notes are at home
R1 Esper Blade with lingering souls.
I think I go 2-0 but F lingering souls 1 card that chump blocks thrun for 4 turns. It seems like a great card for anyone running equipment, but deed, and pulse are a paddling for it.
R2 Fish: W 2-1, I think
One of the games he is sitting with a LoA he just dropped, and fully powered coral helm and 2 curse catchers I am at about 5 life with a dismember inhand, I have 1 dragon token in play I rip another broodmate like a champeen trade his board for mine, pretty sure I won that one. If that had have been titan I was dead on board.
r3 R W B painter servant 2-0
He has a bunch of duress effects both games, and 1 half of the combo but no gas, and he gets rolled.
R4 counter burn ID,
He offers the ID, and I take it as we are both 3-0 as we all know it is not a great matchup. for S&G we play it out and I win 2-1, games 2, and 3 siding in the baloths.
R5 Wilkin and his bloody B/W good stuff deck we ID
Top 8: Wilkin, every dam game either either starts off with a T1 bob or hymn.
G1: I get an early wickerbough, but I get greedy and blow it on his chrome mox and not be intelligent and wait for a better target. He drowns me with card advantage from a bob wearing a SoFI.
G2 He gets greedy and keeps a 1 lander + mox
He drops a T1 bob I T2 grudge the mox, he doesnt get a land, I T3 pulse the bob, he scoops shortly there after.
G3 I have a couple of punts to throw the game away as I get pounded by flying germ tokens and drowned by faerie tokens blocking dudes I throw at Elspeth.
@ AggroSteve
Barring combat tricks, most targeted removal in black is restrictive (creature must have 5 or less power (dismember), creature must not be an artifact (Go for the Throat) and so on. Diabolic Edict is restrictive based on board state, which we have a much easier time dictating as opposed to what creatures our opponents have included. This, plus the fact that in retaliation of so many UWx Blade decks utilizing 4 StP and 4 Snapcaster Mage, a rise in Shroud and Hexproof creatures is inevitable (Nimble Mongoose, Troll Ascetic, Geist of St. Taft) and, in addition, gives us an out to an active Mom and an otherwise empty board.
Liliana is pretty major, and the very crafting of our deck does make her asymmetrical, but I believe it would benefit us, particularly when splashing a third splash color, to minimize our double black or double splash color mana spells. And while I did consider Chainer's Edict, the necessity of having some instant speed removal is not to be underestimated, for reasons suggested by daPaule. Plus, when playing with 5 Eternal Witness (I consider each GSZ to be half of a potential target) and Recurring Nightmares, you find your graveyard to be an extension of your hand, indeed giving Diabolic Edict virtual 'flashback' over and again many fold.
Considering splashes, i really like red splash. Punishing Fire is strong right now, since it kills a lot of important stuff. Ok, not everything, but catch-all removal is hard to find.
1) You can't rely on the Deed plan to get you to the late game, since Maverick will slowroll you and will not overextend into Deed and with Punishing Fire plus Therapy you force them to do that anyway.
2) Planeswalkers. Nothing is worse than helping your opponent ramp into early JaceTMS, then sit there helplessly while they bury you with card advantage. With Fires you can sit back and take your time while you ping their walkers and blockers and they have to find something that sticks or a solution to the Fires engine. Even if they Wasteland your Grove, you still get some value out of it.
3) Witness, Explorer or tokens are pretty suboptimal blockers, but with Fires, you can turn combat math in your favor.
4) Also- Fires on your own Explorer is pretty good, if you need to ramp fast.
The cons:
1) It's not really a removal spell, when it comes to the big guys.
2) Snare-able - not really a drawback, since it has "buyback", but you can get blown out of the water sometimes.
3) Mana intensive. But since this is a ramp deck..
It really boils down to the fact that you can ping planeswalkers while also being a removal spell. Rock lacks in anti-PW department (Pulse+Therapy also work, i guess) and white doesn't really offer anything of help there.
Did you forget about Vindicate and O-Ring?Quote:
Originally Posted by zalachan
Not really, but that's just Pulse variants. I don't say that vindicate effects are bad or anything, but there's a finite number of slots for 3cc sorcery speed catch-all spells (3 Deed and 3 Pulse or something like that).Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenpoe
I wouldn't really play O-Ring, outside of certain scenarios (big tentacle monsters come to mind) since it's pretty bad.
Faith's Fetters is better than O-Ring by a mile in this deck. Shutting down a planeswalker so that they need to legend-rule him before playing another is pretty boss. The one disadvantage is that it freezes the walker at whatever his loyalty was at, but I haven't had that be a problem for me historically.
I wouldn't say so much that Rock lacks in the anti-PW dept. as that we don't run the cards that are good against walkers. Qweerios is spot on with trampling monstrosities -- legacy players are used to dropping a Elspeth, making a soldier to chump, and expecting her to survive. Likewise, we don't have the aggro presence of a traditional junk/rock deck, with Goyfs and Knights. Furthermore, we aren't running Hex/Depths, which is an even further answer (just the Hex, let alone the token). The tools exist, we simply don't run them.
I've been beginning to hear some rumblings on Twitter and other places that GSZ might be the next card to get banned, some number of months in the future (obv. not an immediate threat, but an eventual one). If the meta fails to adapt to Maverick, I can see it happening....at this point, I would argue that Maverick is resembling Survival more than we are, and taking 6/8 spots in the top eight of a pretty hefty SCG Open skill-wise is saying something. Although it is worth noting that the Invitational top 8 was dramatically more prepared for Maverick.../shrug. Regardless, I believe that we should look into the Living Wish idea more seriously; not because drawing "blanks" in our deck is a bad thing, but because it lets us A: run more gas, B: run more situational answers to problems (hi, Hexmage, Canonist, etc), and C: if the day comes when GSZ gets banned, we wouldn't have to waste time adapting because the theory will have already been worked out. Disclaimer: I believe that the meta is going to adapt, and that Zenith won't need to be banned anytime in the near future. The fact remains, however, that it is a very, very powerful tutor, and that Wizards really doesn't like it when those start to run rampant.
I propose that we begin by making a list of Wish targets that are actually viable, for each of the different color combinations. Note that I am also of the opinion that this does -not- mean that we largely cut creatures from our maindecks. Perhaps trim some situational targets, etc, but I firmly believe that drawing some threats maindeck is always preferable to having to Wish for any bombs at all.
Any list:
Phyrexian Metamorph
Sylvok Replica
Yixlid Jailer
Phyrexian Revoker
Vampire Hexmage
extra Eternal Witness?
The three splashes:
Doran:
Canonist
Kataki
Magus of the Tabernacle?
Jund:
Sulfur Elemental
Anathamancer?
Mimeoplasm:
Simic Sky Swallower
Trygon Predator
Obviously there's a lot missing, and this is more intended by way of stirring discussion as opposed to being a complete list.
I have been giving a lot of thought to the BUG idea lately, I'll admit. I very much still love my Rector list, but I do wonder if BUG is better in general. You gain Brainstorm, Gifts and Fact-or-Fiction, Jace TMS, Consec. Sphinx and a lot of really good UG creatures, at the cost of being able to run Swords, Sun Titan, Leyline of Sanctity and the Rector package, Moat, Baneslayer, etc. You also lose the ability to Tsunami people, though, which feels poor. Card is such a horrific beating in legacy.
Here are a list of creatures (beaters) I've run or would like to try in my GBw build
non-Zenithable:
Sun Titan
[cards]Baneslayer Angel[/card]
Grave Titan
Helldozer
Visara the dreadful
Zenithable:
Ghave
Doran
Teneb, The Harvester
Kodama of the North Tree
Gaea's Revenge
I tried Grave Titan, Vulturous Zombie and Mystic Enforcer and all were underwhelming. In the case of the latter two, I just wanted Baneslayer, but could zenith for her (obviously). Ghave seems like it would be good, but Doran is cheaper and just as big and zenithable. Helldozer was too clunky and really all Visara is is a big finisher that flies that isn't outlandishly expensive. Gaea's revenge was nice except when I had [cards]moat/cards] out. Thrun maybe better at sticking around against blue decks and infinitely cheaper.
I'm looking to see what happens when I cut GSZ because I've cut a lot off the cheaper green stuff so I can run more controling cards to beat faster decks like Zoo, Sligh and Thresh. Deed just never seems enough.
@ Qweerios: green t-shirt at the CMT? I saw you in top 8. I missed it on breakers, also on BG. Saw someone else there playing BGw as well. I'm surprised you lost to that Bant deck, I beat it in the swiss in round 3, mulling to 5 in one game even, though I had to rip land to cast my 1-of Damnation to kill his Proggy that game. Deeds are just so good against them. He seemed pretty tilted, but it's a good matchup. I believe the NO Plan was from his SB. It was kind of scary but Damnation and Lili (or Deed if that amount of mana ever happens) take care of Proggy at least.
My losses were to the Hive Mind and Esper Stoneblade decks that were in the t8. Hive Mind was just a nightmare, I knew what he was on as I'd sat next to him in round 3, and pretty much knew I was going to lose g1, which I did, and quickly. I mulled into a therapy and a fetch for an Arbor to flash it back, but he had Brainstorm both times to protect his stuff and killed me on his t4. In game 2 I resolved 2 Therapies, flashed one back, got a Hymn flusterstormed and had an Extirpate in hand but never got a combo piece into the GY. He wound up hardcasting his Hive Mind for the kill. My sideboard is nearly all combo hate, but I didn't have much to bring in against Hive Mind. I boarded out removal for by 3 Extirpates and my Gaddock Teeg. I pretty much expected to lose and the games were pretty lighthearted and we talked about them after. I didn't really know what to Therapy for against him, especially after he responded with Brainstorm, and he gave me some advice there. I'd scooped the same guy in round 6 of standard the day previous as he was close to Q'ing and I'm not.
I feel pretty good about the Esper matchup, but my draws in our game were just horrible. In game 1 I mulled to five, bricked on land for a while then drew nothing but land. He had a slow start but eventually beat me down with a random assortment of dudes. In game 2 I extirpated his Lingering Souls after he intuitioned for them, which felt pretty good, but I flooded out and lost to Jace. My wins were against Sea Stompy (yeah, seriously), UR, Bant and RuG.
I played a straight GB list and couldn't see splashing another colour. We don't need more removal (Swords/Punishing Fire) and other stuff people splashing are running is just too cute imo (Rector, Sun Titan, etc.). Beware the danger of cool things. Also I loooooove my Hymns.
The list I ran:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Grave Titan
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Skeletal Scrying
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforets
3 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
6 Forest
3 Swamp
SB
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Zuran Orb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Damnation
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Gaddock Teeg
Changes I made after are: MD: -1 Skeletal Scrying, +1 Garruk Relentless. I want something that can still give me tons of CA while also being a win-con. He can also kill delvers and tons of utility dudes. Might try Primal Hunter just because he draws cards, but Relentless seems sweet so I'm testing him for now.
SB Changes: -2 Zuran Orb, +1 Eternal Witness, +1 Liliana of the Veil. Lots of people in Ottawa playing burn so I boarded some orbs as this deck makes great use of them. Didn't need them against UR though, and honestly I tested burn during the weekend and feel fine about the matchup. Therapy, Hymn, Ooze and Finks are all a very big game against them.
Treetop Village are also a good idea, Jace really is a problem and they would help immensely. I saw some people talking about running 2 of them and a Primeval Titan (also a big Trampler). Has anyone tried this?
Also has anyone tried Dread of Night in the board? It doesn't necessarily help problem MUs but it ranches two of the 3 t1 decks (Maverick and Esper, the other t1 deck being RuG, imo). Another card I'm curious about is Terravore, just for a cheap beater we can Zenith for.
I love the deck and feel good about a lot of the top-tier MUs at the moment. What would really put the deck over the top would be a really powerful walker (i.e Jace/Elspeth) in our colours, or a better late-game Zenith target. Here's hoping for something in Avacyn Restored!
Your MD looks pretty good. For the SB the reason why I don't like Mindbreak Trap is that it does nothing against Reanimator and Hive Mind. For the life gain Dark Heart of the Wood is basically a strict improvement to Zuran Orb if that is the kind of effect you want.
I think Orb beats out Dark Heart as it costs 0 and you can sac any land, meaning you can sac swamps, arbor, tower and uncracked fetches (which saves an additional life). I cut the Orbs from the board anyway, though. What would you run over Mindbreak Trap? I already have a lot of hate for Reanimator. Hive Mind trounced me pretty soundly but isn't so popular, and I'd rather not just roll over to storm. Though I did beat a high tide deck 2-0 last week! Hymns and Therapies ftw!
@dscherli
Yep, green shirt was me. I lost 1-2 to NO Bant which was a matchup heavily in my favor. I lost G1 to a T3 NO/Prog hidden by Brainstorm that I helped power out via an Explorer/Therapy. I took 20 points of damage before I could activate my Deed and lay a Liliana on Prog (1 turn short). Even in retrospect, I had this game lost despite my huge second therapy blunder, there was nothing I could have done differently to win that one. I took G2 with a tripple Liliana opening that my opponent never recovered from. I lost G3 to a mulligan to 5 followed by 5 consecutive land draws while facing an Elspeth. 8 lands in play for 1 Explorer, 1 Therapy, 2 Damnation, and a Liliana, the Elspeth emblem activation is what made me scoop. Sometimes the deck will poop on you, so is Magic. I am just very happy to have made top 8 despite the improvised decklist and the fact that I hadn't slept (finished work at 2am and left from Montreal at 7:30).
I agree with you that straight GB is the way to go. I started off with GB, then I played GBr (before PFire), then GBw for a long time but so far, there is nothing essential that the third color brings to the table.
I made a few changes to my list since and I have been very pleased by the replacement of Deranged Hermit by Kodama of the North Tree. A genuine titan against Stoneblade and Planeswalkers. He also allows me to draw 6 cards with a Garruk and a GSZ.
As far as the burn matchup is concerned, a couple of Obstinate Baloth really swing the matchup in our favor, moreso than Finks. It is also very strong against UR Delver, any tempo deck (especially Hymn), and even Pox which is by no means a bye.
I've been really liking GB. For reference, the list I have been running:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Primeval Titan
2 Grave Titan
2 Go for the Throat
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor*
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Treetop Village
Sideboard:
2 Duress*
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Massacre*
3 Tsunami
1 Tree of Redemption*
1 Kitchen Finks
Garruk Primal hunter is a champ, I really cant imagine playing GB without 2 of him. I tried relentless and was not a fan. Primal Hunter, can draw you a ton if hes just going to get hit with fliers or something. If he sticks around making 3/3s each turn and drawing 3+ is enough to get there, and if you can do his -6 you probably win.
If you haven't tried one Prime titan and 2 treetops, I would strongly urge you to try them. They take the spot of Deranged hermit or Kodama of the North tree. 12 power with trample that doesnt die to single target removal for 7mana+GSZ is just what this deck needs for its late game finisher. Also, he can grab phyrexian tower and volraths stronghold recur witness+removal, or a titan every turn. Also, treetop villages are more often than not nice to draw into, or see in an opening hand. They are great for hitting JTMS and elspeths too (trample, and not a creature during their turn).
Things with the * I am unsure about.
- Dryad arbor: I feel like I open or draw into arbor when I really need a basic or bayou more often than I actually need to fetch/gsz into arbor. I might just cut it for a 4th bayou or a basic.
- Duress: I'd like something so I don't just roll over to hivemind/storm. I'm not really sure how to do this without investing too many slots of hate for it and thus weakening match ups that I should be winning. I might just put Nihil spellbombs in here to and accept that I have a really bad matchup to those decks.
- Massacre: I haven't had enough time to test this. Im not sure if it will better than dread of night. Its nice that hits SFM, snapy, clique, traft and delver (in x/u/w).
- Tree of redemption: If you can slow burn or TES down with discard and land tree, it buys you ALOT of time and I haven't lost where I can untap with it. But it costs 4, 5 with GSZ and needs to untap to do anything. I would really like something I can drop turn 1 or 2. Maybe I should try Zuran orb here? I wish there was a like a 1 or 2 drop green creature that could gain you a decent amount of life.
One thing I could use some help with is what to take out against UW/esper blade. Bringing in Tsunamis and Massacres seems like a no brainier. Taking out Go for the throats and... idk. Any suggestions?
@TheArchitect:
I think 2 Massacre SB are enough so you could play 4 Duress :)
With your list against Esper Stoneblade I would sideboard:
+2 Surgical +1 Extirpate +2 Duress +3 Tsunami
-2 Go for the Throat -1 Explorer -2 Cabal Therapy -3 Liliana
I think it's fine to cut a few explorers/therapies because of their basic lands which can be dangerous...(early Jace!).Deed still seems good, a bit later in the game when you face Spirit Tokens & also get rid of SFM+Equip. point removal & Liliana are very underwhelming...
After having played the Tower/Stronghold/Witness combo on several ocasions and after realizing how worthwhile Treetops made a two-colored list become, Primeval Titan is a card I am strongly contemplating. Furthermore, having access to a tutorable Titan raises more questioning. Do we still need Grave Titans? Is Primeval Titan good enough?
I wholeheartedless disagree with the idea of having 3 Titans in a legacy deck no matter how much reliable ramp it features. I advocate more Primal Hunter and less Titans.
Another point I'd like to bring up is: what has Kitchen Finks ever done for you as a maindeck card, and what is it best at?