[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

If everyone is extremely worried about Hulk-Flash, I would advocate the following changes to my list:

Current Pikula:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Hypnotic Specter
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Rotting Giant

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Engineered Plague
4 Dark Ritual

4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
2 Godless Shrine
1 Flagstones of Trokair
5 Swamp

sb:
4 Dystopia
2 Withered Wretch
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Darkblast
3 Null Rod
2 Disenchant
1 Serenity

Changes:
-2 Jotun Grunt
+1 Rotting Giant
+1 Nantuko Shade

-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Engineered Plague
+3 Leyline of the Void

Sb:
-2 Withered Wretch
+1 Leyline of the Void
+1 Engineered Plague

Is there really any reason to run only 3 MB leyline? It strikes me that if that's all we have game 1 against huly flash, it ought to be a 4-of. It's also one of those cards that's just better as a 4-of.

I would run 4, but I can't find what to cut for it at the moment. I guess I could go down to 22 non ritual mana sources, though...

Leyline + Jotun Grunt ≠ synergy.

While I agree that Leyline + Grunt = bad synergy, it really doesn't matter vs Hulk. Grunt still has your own yard to feed from, and Leyline is one of the strongest answers to Hulk. However, I wouldn't run them maindeck... especially not against pre-FS Hulk Flash. Deadguy is already one of the best decks the format currently has for beating Hulk Flash, so I really think Leyline MD is going overboard. While I'd consider running them MD after FS, I really don't think they are necessary for beating the pre-FS version. Put them in your sideboard.

I do mean the Post FS version. It is a pity I can't go for the GP, I would like to be able to play some proper Legacy before stupid combo decks ruin the format.

My post FS build(Not relevant to the GP):

Mana

4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
5 Swamp

Creatures

4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Mesmeric Fiend
3 Jotun Grunt

Other

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Unmask


SB [15]

4 Dystopia
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Leyline of the Void

Card Choices:

Dystopia - beats the Fish/Hulk Flash hate decks.

Here's mine for the GP. If I'm going, I know I will play Bw Confidant...


// Mana 22
4 Chrome Mox
4 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
2 Scrubland
1 Plains
2 Swamp


// Creatures 17
3 Savananh Lions
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt


// Spells 22
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Stifle
3 Extirpate
4 Unmask
3 Umezawa's Jitte


// Sideboard 15
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Engineered Plague
4 Vindicate
2 Trickbind
1 Extirpate


So here's the thing... it's Therapy and Mage based.


Discard + Therapy and Mage = Win against Flash
Any discard spell + Extirpate = Another win

I re-did the whole deck. I just want to keep them from finding outs really. Extirpate is actually good for once, but it's narrow. If it wasnt for
Hulk Flash, I wouldnt have built a deck entirely based on limiting their options.

Old philosophy: Win small with marginal effects and win conditions
New philosophy: Limit options and winning with marginal win conditions

Personally I prefer going for a build more heavy in Black so I can use Dystopia to ruin the other Fish decks real bad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

Personally I prefer going for a build more heavy in Black so I can use Dystopia to ruin the other Fish decks real bad.

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Actually... I will consider that idea. I still want to run Jotun Grunt, but the Lions can go. I just want 1c Drops just to make Therapies effective really.


-3 Savananh Lions
-3 Isamaru

+4 Sarcomancy
+2 Carnophage

As for the SB, I might cut Plagues for Dystopia.

Cabal Therapy can be mean without one drops...sac a dying Grunt, sac a Confidant killing you?

BTW, any comments on my build?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

Cabal Therapy can be mean without one drops...sac a dying Grunt, sac a Confidant killing you?

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It's just easier for me to do it early against a deck like Flash.

Quote:

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BTW, any comments on my build?

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1. My deck is awfully like yours in a way.
2. I like the direction you're taking. It seems a lot like mine actually.
3. Unmask is busted. Add 2 more in.

Unmask AND Chrome Mox AND Dark Ritual? Won't the card disadvantage be a little over-kill or sth?

EDIT: I think I'd stick with 2 Unmasks, cos Unmask Foils are hard to find on ebay...

That sounds reasonable. The reason why I have 8 pitch cards because Confidant usually helps me recover... so yeah.

Well, not with 4 Rituals MDed in addition to those.

Anyway, I guess what you're saying makes sense too...With this amount of discard in the deck, I believe it would be much easier to get Confidant to stick. What do you suggest cutting for the Unmasks?

Also, regarding your build: From what I see, your build doesn't have a very fast clock. What do you think of a clock like Negator? Is it too risky or something, or does Grunt work just fine?

I find that in my build, Phyrexian Negator hasn't been doing all that well. I generally wish too see more Specters, since once I shred his hand and have a Specter on the board, he's going to have to play all his topdecks, lest get them removed by Specter, so the opponent has no time to rebuild his hand for the Combo.

So, although I once derided it as too slow, what do you guys think of Shimian Specter? On turn 2 you can cast it of a Rit(turn 1, you'd be too busy casting disruption). From then on, it can be better or worse against Specter(better against Combo, IMHO[untested]). It can also be pitched to a Mox or Unmask if you don't need him(e.g. you have multiple Hypnotic Specters in hand, or you can't get 4 mana fast with your hand).

Opinions?

I never really needed Negators since I have a threat coming down anyways, and the excess discard constricts their options. That should buy me enough time to deal 20 damage.

As for the Unmask part, I dont think you need it. You ahve Dark Ritual to power out your big stuff. I have Unmask because I dont play cards like Ritual to power out big stuff, but instead, I slowly play my hand out.

What are your thoughts on Shimian Specter in my build? it can be Ritualed out turn 2 after the turn one Discard Spree...

Seems a little hard to power out, but thankfully, we have a ton of disruption to let us go into Turn 3 just to drop this guy on the board.

My only problem with Shimian is that he's worse than Specter if they already have no hand, but hey, I wanna play more Specter effects... Is that a correct gameplan?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

My only problem with Shimian is that he's worse than Specter if they already have no hand, but hey, I wanna play more Specter effects... Is that a correct gameplan?

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You should play it over Specters actually. Hulk doesnt care when you play a 1st turn Specter anyway. At least if you play this when they're disrupted it, you can take down Tutors to keep them from getting pieces they need.

Hello there!

I've been following the thread that talk about B/W Distruption (« Deadguy Ale ») for quite a long time now.. I've been testing this deck on MWS for few month, and i've change some thing in order to be more powerfull in my particular meta (Paris... yeah i'm french).
I've also play a lot against deck such as Threshold (splash white and red, yeah 4cc deck), Gobelin,Affinity, combo deck (IGG and Belcher), and some random deck (burn, pure white aggro...) in some local and Paris tournament.
Dues to all those tournament, i've seen that some card need to be change, or remove, or added.

Here is my version of B/W Confidant :

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstain Mire
4 Scrubland
6 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Godless Shrine

Creatures (15)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Hypnotic Specter
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Mother of Rune

Spells (24)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Vindicate
2 Umezawa Jitte
2 Cursed Scroll

Sideboard (15)
4 Engineered Plague
3 Serenity
3 Pithing Needle
2 Sword To Plowshares
3 Dystopia

First is STP. I mean, okay it permit us to remove from the game a creature, but in many deck, creature have low endurance (1 or 2). That's why i've been looking for a more versatile card that will took the MD place of STP (wich then go straigh to SB, because in certain matchup i need some others way to destroy creature). It was (well, for me) just an obligation to play Umezawa jitte. It can give us life, destroy opponent creature, and boost or own creature. The only thing in charge of STP is that it is the only answer to a turn one Lackey. That's why i choose jitte, because he is more versatile.

About Jotun Grunt, it has definitively his place on this deck. First it is a great creature (good strengh/endurance, burn don't kil him with only one bolt or other...), and his cumulative upkeep cost isn't that embarassing (great againt threshold, and also against deck using millstone or stuff like that). Moreover, it permit us to take back in our library card like vindicate, sinkhole or others (depending on opponent deck).

And Mother Of Rune MD. This card is just awesome. Eternal blocker, great piece of protection, a Jitte on it can help a lot. Someone was arguing about it before, but no one have seen it, or think to it was worse to talk about. It is just too great to not play it. Pro avoid removal, and permit to it oponnent health point.

Another thing is the two Engineered Plague MD. I think that such a card have to be played four time, or not. It is taking two slot MD, and again deck like gobelin (or elfs or others), it is in my opinion only a question of luck (because obviosly, it HAS to be play as fast as possible if we don't want to be ovewhelm by creature).

I've cut off two land too. . Plus, i've introduce two Plains, in order to avoid land hate (who said Wasteland ?). But well, i think that it's quite good, even if one more land should be had in order to avoid mana death.

Dystopia in SB. Well, every one know that deck such like threshold and is sometime hard to beat, and it help a lot. Moreover, i help in deck wich are running mono white(fish or others?), mono green(stompy or others?), and some other random deck.

And Serenity in SB ? For game just like stax or stuff like that (sometime enchantress...). Destroy our Jitte but well, the deck don't rely on Jitte to win, it just help a lot in certain matchup.

Also, there is no more Phyrexian Negator (even if it is the card i love the most). He is usefull only against few deck, and he is a two edge weapon. A bolt on a P. Negator, and we can loose. That's why he is no more in this deck (sob).

Finally, i want to talk about that particular card :

Shimian Specter
Creature – Specter
Flying
Whenever Shimian Specter deals combat damage to a player, that player reveals his or her hand. Choose a nonland card from it. Search that player's graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with the same name as that card and remove them from the game. Then that player shuffles his or her library.
2/2

I think that most of you think it have to be in this deck, remplacing Hyppie, but well i'm not sure i'll do that. Hyppie permit us to discard land, and land distruption is one thing that make this deck so good. Even if shimian permit to remove from game at each attack 2, 3 or 4 card of the opponent deck, i don't know if it is so good, cause it will attact all creature hate. But well, i think i'm gone to try this specter, because well, he looks owesome.
So, what's your opinion ?

Also, Hulk Flash, even if it is a great piece of deck, isn't unwinnable. We have many way to discard some master piece of this deck. Also, we can, in order to have a more reliable chance to win, had in SB leyline, wich is a really strong card against graveyard dependent deck (hulk, ***** or other).

Thanks you for reading me (even if there is lot of mistake, sorry i'm french).

Holo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Holo_rip

Thanks you for reading me (even if there is lot of mistake, sorry i'm french).

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Way better than I would be able to write if I had to try and write a report of deadguy in french. I'm honestly impressed.

@Mother of Runes: I likes it when I tried her out, and when jitte is in play too, she can be some sort of house, but when dropping her turn 1, it seemed like I was putting an awful lot of strain on my white splash. Have you been running into any problems with her screwing up your colors and fetching plans?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

@Mother of Runes: I likes it when I tried her out, and when jitte is in play too, she can be some sort of house, but when dropping her turn 1, it seemed like I was putting an awful lot of strain on my white splash. Have you been running into any problems with her screwing up your colors and fetching plans?

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Run Chrome Mox or more Bw Sources. Also, Wasteland is becoming more and more obsolete. It seems it's all about Library/Card Quantity/Card Advantage Control. Extirpate ie getting better now because it makes dead discard into road blocks after the first few turns.

I loved it already, so I ended up running 5 1cc drops consisting of Lions and Hounds just so I can pitch them to Mox and play Mom. It also seems the deck is designed to protect Confidant while you go Fish on them.

Well, i'm playing 1 more double land (Godless Shrine), and i think that in the end i'll play two of them (-1 swamp, +1 Godless Shrine). i've never had real problem about how to get white or black mana, or wich land to fetch. The only problem is that, with 21 land (and 4 Wasteland), sometime i'm in mana death, wich is really, really boring...

Chrome mox (for me) isn't that powerfull in such a deck. We have to pitch an color card, and it is in early game that such an artifact as a real impact. The card to pitch must be a dead card in late game, but those card are very important in early game (Hymn To Tourach, Dark Ritual and others stuff...).

Regarding Mother of Runes, it is really, really, really an important card for me. It permit to avoid some threat for our creature (who say Bob ?), and it is an eternal blocker. Moreover, it is a huge house with Jitte in her hand.

Finally, Wasteland. My meta is full of deck like Threshold, Fish...Wasteland is a question of metagame choice, and in mine, you always wish to have even a single wasteland to wrench theire mana base.

About Extirpate, we have to admit that this card is really good, but in some particular case. First, we have to discard card that are really important for the opponent deck. Then we have to choose the right one to remove from game. I've been playing with 2 Extirpate SB for week, but i feel that it is just to situational, and that it is really strong only counter combo deck (even if we can just name some dual land with it, and so wrench even more the opponent mana base).

Holo.

P.S : thanks you rsaunder

hello,

ive been using this version of deadguy ale

Engineered Void
4 leyline
4 engineered plague
4 sinkhole
4 dark ritual
4 hymn
4 hypnotic specter
4 dark confidant
4 cabal therapy
3 jotun grunt
3 shade
4 wasteland
4 scrubland
4 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
1 tainted field
7 swamps

sb:
4 plowshare
4 orims chant
4 serenity
2 scroll
1 grunt

the reason i configured it this way, is to beat goblins, hulk and even thresh maindeck (since these are the decks in tier one at the moment). i think the ability to have an edge in the 1st game is worth the price of having dead cards for specific matchups (ex: leyline against goblins). As long as i had good matchups against the big three, then theoretically, i could plow through most of the field . so far in testing, this configuration works instead of waiting for game 2 to bring in the sideboard cards to get an edge. Right now i think its more important to handle the big three consistently than be versatile enough to handle the random red death, or burn 1st game

against goblins: maindeck set of engineered plague goes a long way into making this matchup easier. after sb, plowshare goes in for the leylines, and even have orims chants to stall if need be.

against hulk : maindeck leylines, tons of disruption, (sometimes plagues works on the DOV versions), and plowshare comes in for the plagues for the kiki version. that with orims chant

against thresh - maindeck plagues and leylines works wonders against mongoose and friends. the ability of an early plague to stop mongooses or stall werebears is so underestimated.

now for the rest of the matchups: (but i consider them in low volume since most people brings one of the big three)

iggy pop - maindeck leylines. chant goes in for the plagues
faerie stompy :swords goes in for the leylines, serenity goes in for the plagues
countersliver- maindeck plagues, swords goes in for leylines
angel stompy: swords goes in for leylines
affinity - serenity rocks! :P
survival decks: maindeck leylines, tons of disruption
solidarity: not that great a matchup, orims chant helps after sb ( we all have to make sacrifices hahaha)
reddeath/ale - swords for leyline, scrolls and grunt goes in for 3 of the plagues.

i found cabal therapy to be more useful at the moment compared to duress because you can prophylactically discard any meddling mages, warchiefs etc.
the very point of this configuration is to beat the big three. so knowing what to guess would be a cynch especially if you go second.

try it out first, let me know what you think.


dee

Uh...Plagues AND Leyline maindecked? Seems too situational in some matchups...Against Hulk I doubt you want any dead cards at all.

Personally I favor the plan of playing entirely Mana, creatures and discard. This way, you have a very good position if you go first, being able to wreck Gobbos with an opening of Unmasks, Hymns and Therapies powered out by BOTH Ritual and Mox, and compoletely shred Hulk's hand. However, it is far less appealing if you play second, especially against slower(discard) Hulk(although the matchup should still be decent).

@Dee:

Sinkhole? Against what? Gobbos and Hulk shrug it off...it gives Thresh Threshold. Although it *can* colorscrew Hannifish...Wheres Duress?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

Uh...Plagues AND Leyline maindecked? Seems too situational in some matchups...Against Hulk I doubt you want any dead cards at all.

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Against jiki-hulk Plague names Zombie, against ceph-hulk Plague names Cephalid. Against Disciple Hulk plague doesn't do jack, but Disciple Hulk is also the most disruptable of the three.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

Personally I favor the plan of playing entirely Mana, creatures and discard. This way, you have a very good position if you go first, being able to wreck Gobbos with an opening of Unmasks, Hymns and Therapies powered out by BOTH Ritual and Mox, and compoletely shred Hulk's hand. However, it is far less appealing if you play second, especially against slower(discard) Hulk(although the matchup should still be decent).

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Check out my build in the SuiBlack thread. It's very similar to what you describe, although a lot of my card choices are a bit unusual due to the state of the metagame.

I just wanna see if anyone has tested Shimian Specter against Hulk Flash. I'll test it when I have time, which would probably be in June, but I would like to see your comments on it. Is it just me, or does taking a combo piece out of their deck with Shimian extremely devastating?

Specter is much better. When they're topdecking, they will never (almost never) beat you. It's a slim chance that they would have both Hulk and Flash in hand when facing down a Specter.

Lands (22)
4x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
3x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Godless Shrine
2x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Flooded Strand
1x Windswept Heath
1x Tainted Field
Creatures (12)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Jotun Grunt
4x Descendant of Kiyomaro
Other Spells (26)
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Gerrard's Verdict
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Vindicate
4x Sinkhole
2x Funeral Charm

Sideboard:
3x Serenity
4x Engineered Plague
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Orim's Chant

I like this approach with Descendant of Kiyomaro. It's a great blocker against Threshold, it's life gain is tech against goblin and is a strong finisher. Jotun Grunt is a 4/4 beat stick with the power to disrupt Threshold.
The deck is all about card advantage with Confidant and one for 2 discard (Hymn to Tourach and Gerrard's Verdict). Giving Descendant a boost 90% of the time.
The deck can play a LD aproach with Sinkhole, Vindicate and Wasteland.
The deck has 6x answers to a t1 lackey: 4x Swords to Plowshares +2x Funeral Charm. Funeral Charm has nice versatility.

Well, this is a different approach.

Old Deadguy is just horrible in the current format. Your Sinkholes and Wastelands don't do enough, not with a deck needing only 2 mana to go off... besides, where's your Cursed Scrolls? You need some to deal with Fish, I'd say.

What is this 'Goblins' and 'Lackey'? I haven't heard of such a deck/creature before...at least, not with Hulk Flash around.

Yeah, I think black-style disruption decks will have a hard time fighting against hulk flash...but it is by no means unwinnable.

Leylines of the Void (maindecked or sideboarded) go a long way in giving you breathing room, ensuring that you survive the first three turns at least. Turns one to three should be dedicated in attacking the Hulk player's hand, forcing them into topdeck mode early on. Flash doesn't have any mass card draw engine so once Flash is in topdeck mode, it stays in topdeck mode. Flash in topdeck mode also means that he doesn't have any countermagic to stop your clocks and other disruption.

You have to take into account however that the tutors Flash runs (Lim-duls vault and mystical tutor) sets up the library, which discard can't touch.

One option is Shimian Specter. But the Shimian specter just seems way to janky for me. It only comes online turn 3 during your attack phase (after an ideal turn 2 Shimian off Dark Ritual) and is only useful if they already have flash in hand. That said, they can just brainstorm or tutor in response.

The card I think that should be tested against flash is cranial extraction. Yeah it costs 4cc but once cast successfully against Hulk, naming Flash, it automatically wins you the game. Imagine a game where you go turn one Lelyline, follow suit with a barrage of discard stripping their hand of countermagic. Then turn four, cranial for Flash. In that case its a gg.

Cranial and Leyline both cost 4. I don't think its a good idea to help your opponent kill you with Bob(who is crucial as he provides a steady stream of threats/ disruption.

Also, Shimian Specter can beat turn 2, off a turn one Mox+Ritual opening which I run.

P.S.: Any suggestions for good clocks other than Grunt?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

P.S.: Any suggestions for good clocks other than Grunt?

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Well, other than Negator you mean ?!? ^^;

With Goblins proving that it can be a presence in the meta due to beating fish...Negator might not be a smart choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

Cranial and Leyline both cost 4. I don't think its a good idea to help your opponent kill you with Bob(who is crucial as he provides a steady stream of threats/ disruption.

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I don't think that's much of a reason not to run the card. Paying four life for Extraction/Leyline (which won't happen all the time) seems like a good deal to me. Especially since Cranial can win the game immediately against Flash if it resolves...

Then again, Flash commonly uses transformational sideboards going for the aggro route. It might be better to leave the hate in the side, same thing that Bill Stark did with his mono-black aggro deck in the Grand Prix.

Aside: that was amazing! MBA in the top 4?? Just Like Pikula's top 2 with deadguy

B/w Deadguy

Lands (22)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
6 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Creatures (14)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Jotun Grunt

Spells (24)
4 Dark Ritual
2 Unmask
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Dystopia
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I discussed this on AIM with Anti-American a little bit, but Aven Mindcensor is so strong in the deck. You run 12 LD spells with Wasteland, Sinkhole, and Vindicate. With the amount of fetchlands in the format, Aven Mindcensor becomes your LD spells 13-16. Once it's down, it stops fetchlands from working properly... the opponent will either find no land or another fetchland a majority of the time. Sometimes they will find the wrong color source, sometimes it will prevent them from grabbing basics (making Wasteland stronger), sometimes they will get what they need. It's still a fairly strong fetchland hoser that plays well with the other LD spells, and it's a 2/1 flyer at worst.

Aven Mindcensor also has the ability to hose Hulk Flash by preventing them from searching libraries. The fact that it has Flash is so strong... it can be played in response to avoid spells like Massacre.

I run 2 Unmask because it gives the deck additional discard early game and can pitch dead cards if need be, so the ritual -> discard effect feels more present (either by going Ritual, Duress, Hymn... or Duress, Unmask).

Umezawa's Jitte should work fine with 14 threats and it gives the deck a slightly better aggro matchup. Jitte makes Confidant's into good beaters. The deck has evasion with Aven Mindcensor and fat with Shade and Grunt to push damage through to gain counters. Dark Ritual also speeds up the equipment plan a great deal. It's fairly good against both versions of Hulk Flash and it's great vs Goblins.

The sideboard is just thrown together but it looks really strong IMO.

I really think the Serum Powder tech in this SB is very strong. This deck could give Serum Powder a whirl.

I hate finding Plains with this deck. You all know Hulk Flash loves Massacre. And how much we need Dark Confidants to keep up with their tutoring power.