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Not that I'm aware of. There was not a lot of coverage going on. The tournament was 226 players. Went 7-1-1 in the swiss, lost to Grixis Delver (the eventual champion) in round 7, was able to ID round 9. Lost in t8 to 5c Czech Pile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Gratz on the great finish! Why did you decide against running a Fiery Islet in your manabase?
Thanks! I expected the games where the lifeloss adds up to be more frequent than the games where you want to spend 2 mana and a landdrop to draw a card. With 11 cantrips most of the time you've got ways to better spend your mana I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentient6
That makes sense. I saw a few lists running it but I trust your judgement of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by DKK
It's a shame this topic is barely active nowadays. Would love to discuss strategies and en tactics with other UR players. How to approach certain matchups, what are crucial cards, etcetera.
Played in a 5 round tournament today, ending in 2nd place. Lost round 1 to UW Miracles (eventual winner), got a bye round 2, then won 2-1 in the Mirror and vs Infect. Last round won 2-0 against TES. Made a few changes from my list a few posts back:
Main: -1 True Name Nemesis, -1 Young Pyromancer, +2 Bedlam Reveler
Side: -1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Narset, Parter of Veils
Feel free to post questions. Not everyone is running the same list, but I'm sure the strategies and tactics will be similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by DKK
To start a discussion: what is the best way to approach the following matchups: 1) UW Miracles, 2) 4c Control. What changes in playstyle do you make from the standard lines of play, what do you think is crucial in winning, what do you board in and out, and why?
I'll post my currrent SB plans and thoughts for both matchups later today.
I had a lot of sucsess with 2 Narset, 2 REB, 2 Pyroblast and 1 Flusterstorm in and 4 Daze, 1 Wasteland, 2 Chain lightning out.Quote:
Originally Posted by DKK
But i am playing 3 TNN in the main:cool:
Could you eloborate on your choice for the 3 TNN? Are certain decks more prevalent in your meta?Quote:
Originally Posted by Man of Steel
As promised here are my current plans for both matchups.
Against UW Miracles:
Out (P): -3 Force of Will, -1 Daze, -2 Wasteland, -1 Chain Lightning, -1 Lightning Bolt
Out (D): -1 Force of Will, -3 Daze, -2 Wasteland, -1 Chain Lightning, -1 Lightning Bolt
In: +3 Pyroblast, +1 Magmatic Sinkhole, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Narset
General idea: remove Wastes (going down to 17) since they're almost dead cards and this improves my card quality. Depending on playing/drawing remove FoW/Daze. Add Magmatic Sinkhole to fight their planeswalkers and leave in some bolts for Mentor (which they bring in) as well. Surgical is meant for removal (Swords / Terminus) and Narset to shut down their cantrips.
Against 4c Control (with astrolabes/basics):
Out: -4 Force of Will, -2 Wasteland, -1 Chain Lightning, -1 Preordain
In: +3 Pyroblast, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Magmatic Sinkhole, +1 Izzet Staticaster, +1 Narset
Staticaster are there for Strix/Coatl. Needle + Sinkhole to combat Oko. Narset to shut down cantrips. Board out FoW because they have lots of 2v1 already and you don't want to play into that game. Pyroblast mainly for Oko/Strix/Coatl (preferably on the stack).
Looking forward to comments/critique/different plans.
[QUOTE=DKK;1080584]Could you eloborate on your choice for the 3 TNN? Are certain decks more prevalent in your meta?
My current meta is full of D & T, Miracle (and other oko Control) and 12 post. But in my testing young pyromancer was bad almost all the time. After 40 games me and my friends decided, that playing more tnn would be the best solution, because i dedicated to play 19 lands instead of 18
Btw i played Chalice of the void decks for years and for almost all of them TNN is the real problem
Interesting! Could you share your currrent list?
For me one of the lines to victory against chalice decks (especially 12post) was Young Pyromancer and then go wide by casting 1cmc spells into Chalice. TNN was good to push through the last points of damage, but earlier on you need to block as well to prevent being raced by a TKS or something similar.
In both of those matchups, I prioritize sticking a threat and getting in damage. True-Name is the best threat (I run four), and Young Pyromancer is probably the second best. Most Miracles builds are UWg or UWgr now for Oko, so countering Oko is usually the biggest priority preboard. Against UW, Counterbalance is something I want to counter, and I try not to overextend into a Terminus. After sideboarding, I bring in Sulfuric Vortex and Pyroblast. I trim on my Wastelands and flex slots. I like keeping Dazes on the play and trimming some on the draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by DKK
This is the list I played a few weeks ago, but you can also find some recent tournament reports here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...House-1K-Top-4) and here (https://writtenbyjames.com/2019/11/1...jeremy-edwards).
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Young Pyromancer
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Dreadhorde Arcanist
2 Brazen Borrower
1 Vapor Snag
1 Pyroblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Force of Will
2 Force of Negation
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Prismatic Vista
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Price of Progress
1 Abrade
1 Null Rod
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Pyroblast
I`ve been testing against Post and oko Control. The result is Play 4 tnn and 4 Dreadhorde and never Play Young pyromancer:cool:
Another tournament last weekend, another solid result. Played in the Legacy event of the Dutch Open Series. Attendance was about 50 players (due to extreme weather conditions (storm) and MCM Paris being in the same weekend turnout was lower than I had expected).
The changes
Since the last event I made some minor changes. Overall the list has been performing well, but I wanted to improve the control matchup and adjust for newly developed decks.
Maindeck:
-1 Bedlam Reveler, +1 True-Name Nemesis
Playing 2 Bedlam has sometimes felt clunky. Currently I think 1 is the correct number, as it's an incredible mid-game spell against Delver and Control decks. The extra True-Name was added due to the recommendations in this thread (and since I previously cut 1 for the Reveler).
-1 Preordain, +1 Pyroblast
With 19 lands and 11 cantrips I was on the (very) safe side of consistency compared to some other decks. The reason for maindeck Pyroblast was twofold, 1) I expected a heavy blue meta and 2) I wanted to make room in the sideboard without going down to 2 Pyroblast
Sideboard:
-1 Pyroblast, +1 Sulfuric Vortex
The Pyroblast moved to the maindeck, the Vortex is added as an additional hard-to-answer threat against control decks.
-1 Submerge, +1 Tormod's Crypt
I wanted sideboard cards to bring in against Breach decks. Submerge felt like a cuttable card, since I had not seen any Tarmogoyfs for a while. It does harm the Depths matchup a bit, but I expected Breach to be more prevalent.
-1 Flusterstorm, +1 Counterbalance
My testing group was pondering about answers to Breach decks and Counterbalance felt like a solid addition to the board that is usable in multiple matchups (als against control, TES and other Delver decks).
The decklist
These changes led to the following list:
Maindeck:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dreadhorde Arcanist
2 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Brazen Borrower
1 Bedlam Reveler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Chain Lightning
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pyroblast
4 Daze
1 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
3 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Counterbalance
1 Null Rod
2 Abrade
1 Blood Moon
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Magmatic Sinkhole
The tournament
We play 6 rounds followed by a top 8.
Round 1: 2-1 vs BUG Delver
The first match I play after cutting Submerge is against a Goyf deck, guess that's no coincidence. Game 1 I have to mulligan but I am on the draw and can keep up with him. I answer a quick Goyf with Bolt, Arcanist -> Bolt and manage to ride the Arcanist cardadvantage to victory. Game 2 I drew too many lands after keeping a mediocre but keepable 7 and quickly die to his pressure. Game 3 I am on the play and have some well timed Dazes and Wastelands to keep him out of the game while applying Delver-pressure.
Round 2: 2-0 vs TES
After acquiring LED's I've been testing TES at home quite a bit. This gives me a good grasp of what's important in the matchup. Game 1 he has to mulligan while I resolve an early Young Pyromancer to apply pressure while preventing him from going off with my countermagic. Game 2 I resolve a turn 2 Counterbalance. In his turn he plays a cantrip (CB trigger reveals a land) followed by Burning Wish for Empty. The next turn I let him go off as I have an Izzet Staticaster in hand to answer his Goblins and a Surgical Extraction to remove the other Empty the Warrens from his deck. When I respond to his following Burning Wish with Brainstorm->reveal Null Rod to CB he extends his hand.
Round 3: 2-0 vs Wgb Eldrazi
I'm paired against a good friend of mine who plays a hybrid between regular Eldrazi decks (TSK, Reality Smasher) and D&T (Thalia, Stoneforge), with Plague Engineers. It's always a bummer to get paired against a good friend (early) in the tournament. From testing I believe he has the better odds in the matchup. Game 1 I keep a land heavy hand and manage to trick him into using Wasteland to target my Volcanic Island (used for a cantrip in my turn). This slowed him down while sculpting my hand. I follow it up with a Delver and then I use my Wasteland on his 2nd land drop and drop another Delver. They bring the game home. Game 2 I let a turn 2 Chalice of the Void resolve while having FoW in hand because I want to counter his threats and can deal with Chalice later through Borrower (had it in hand) or Abrade. I counter his threat while resolving my own shortly afterwards (Dreadhorde). At one point he resolves a Batterskull, which I can double Bolt to stall and then later on deal with through Null Rod (preventing the return to hand) and Abrade. Eventually Arcanist cardadvantage combined with Delver beats seal the deal.
Round 4: 2-1 vs Food Chain
Game 1 I open with Delver, he opens with Thoughtseize and I reveal my hand of 2 Delver, Ponder, land and Bolt. He is not happy to see this and takes the Ponder to prevent me from securing a quick double flip. The other Delvers soon join the table and I manage to kill him before he can set up his combo, having Bolt for both his Baleful Strixes. Game 2 I have to mulligan and quickly fall behind as he casts a manipulate fate for Eternal Scourge, double Mishthollow Griffin to apply pressure. Game 3 I can keep him off his green mana (Bolt-> Bird, Wasteland on Tropical) and manage to kill him before he gets his combo online. Overall I was very glad to win this match, since I think we're unfavored here.
Round 5: ID
There are 3 players on 4-0 after four rounds. Luckily I am not downpaired and can ID with my opponent to lock in top8.
Round 6: ID
I can ID again (with my eventual top8 opponent as it turns out) and end up 4th in the swiss.
Top 8: 1-2 vs Red Eldrazi
I know what each of the top8 players brought and think this was my worst matchup. His decklist seems designed to prey on Delver decks (solid choice for this day given the field) and can be found here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2755063
Because of my Swiss finish I can play first and keep a solid hand of Island, Delver, FoW, Pierce, triple Ponder/Preordain. I open with Delver and Force his t1 Chalice (off Ancient Tomb). On my upkeep I flip Delver (so don't draw a land), beat him to 15 and keep up blue mana for Spell Pierce for a lockpiece (in retrospect I believe I should've played a cantrip here). He plays a TKS and I regret not playing the cantrip. I beat him to 10, play a cantrip and find no land but do find a FoW. He attacks me down to 16 and tries to Punishing Fire my Delver (cast of Grove of the Burnwillows), which I Force. I attack him down to 7 and do not find a land. He resolves Eldrazi Obligator, uses his Ancient Tomb for the ability stealing my Delver and beats me down to 7, threatening lethal next turn. I draw a mountain, cast a cantrip, finding one of my 5 bolts and attack + bolt for the win. Game 2 I have to mulligan and have no answer to his 2nd turn Chalice for 1, followed by some big monsters. Game 3 we both mulligan. My 7 is FoW, Delver, Bolt, Wasteland, Volcanic, Island, Fetch. I put one of the lands on the bottom and lead with Delver (I have to apply pressure to stand a chance, since he has too many threats for me to counter them all). He leads with Tomb, Chrome Mox (imprinting Punishing Fire), Trinisphere. I don't flip Delver, but Waste his Tomb hoping to lock him under his own Trinisphere. Unfortunately this does not work as he hits his land drops the next turns and deploys threats in the form of Reality Smasher, Thought-Knot Seer and hardcast Simian Spirit Guide. I trade my Young Pyromancer for his Simian (as I'm not able to generate many tokens through the sphere anyway) and hope to get there with my flier while sucking up his damage with Dreadhorde Arcanist x2. There are some very complex decisions involved when to block and what to cast under Trinisphere. The game ends with me going down from 4 to 2 (Smasher blocked by Arcanist) and having 1 draw step to find a Bolt (one of the 4, as I boarded out Chain Lightning) but I do not and he finishes me. This was a hard but very interesting match and my opponent played very tight as well and had a solid list so he deserved the win.
The reflection
I was very happy with how the deck performed. Given another opponent in top8 (the other 6 players had blue decks) I might have even gotten a higher finish, who knows. I was happy with the changes I made to the decklist and would not directly make any others. However, I'm thinking about possible options for the sideboard to bring in against the big colorless Eldrazi.
Since the beginning of december I played in 4 tournaments with UR Delver (slight changes in between) and had a good finish each time (1st place in a local tournament, top8 at Eternal Weekend, 2nd at a local tournament, top8 at this event). I prefer the manabase of UR Delver over Grixis variants, although sometimes I'm a bit jealous at their broader sideboard options.
The red eldrazi deck is a hard MU. Against big Eldrazi i have 1 Ghost quarter, 1 Null Rod and 2 Shenanigans . It was not even close. I won 10 out of 11 games. And the one i lost was turn 3 Ulamog, because i had no interaction
I agree with this, the colorless deck with cloudpost has been a favorable matchup with Null Rod, Blood Moon and Abrade for me was well. By big I meant the 4-5cc ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Man of Steel
In my opinion the correct answer is 4 tnn and in my case wasteland number five. I think the the speed of ghost quarter is the key. By this i mean blood moon is to slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by DKK
For me the much bigger problem is blood sun. I think ur delver has to counter that card
I won a 19 Player Tournament.
2-0 Cephalid Breakfest
2-1 UR Delver
2-0 UW Show and Tell
ID
ID
2-0 BUG OKO
2-0 LAnds
2-1 Miracle oko
List is following
Izzet Delver
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dreadhorde Arcanist
4 True Name Nemesis
2 Brazen Borrower 14
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Force of Negation
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain 25
2 Spellpierce 27 Blue 31
1 Fiery Islet
3 Volcanic Island
3 Snow covered Island
1 Snow covered Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand 19
SB:
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Narset Parter of Veils
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
2 Shenanigans
1 Null Rod
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Flusterstorm
First of all, congrats on the finish! Interesting list, have you ever missed YP? Also, how has the Fiery Islet been for you? I'm interested in how often you use it for mana (losing life) before you draw a card. Isn't it awkward every now and then when you have an opener with just the Islet, but also Cantrip (or Delver) + Daze?Quote:
Originally Posted by Man of Steel
Also how have the Shenanigans been for you? I take it you prefer the recurrance over the flexibility of Abrade, which is useful in a broader range of matchups (Mirror, Elves, etc)
What does not add up to me is how you say Blood Moon is too slow on the one hand, but at the same time say the answer is another 3cc card. They serve different roles: against colorless Eldrazi Blood Moon stops the your opponent from deploying any further threats (at least most of them) after you've hopefully countered or Bolted the first. Against the Red variant it is less value, but still can keep them of colorless mana and thus Smasher/TKS. TNN stops threats that are on the board already, although you it does not stop Reality Smasher by itself. Also, Ghost Quarter lets them search for a basic Wastes (colorless deck) or Mountain (Red Eldrazi) while costing you a turn and a land, so effectively it might slow you more than it does to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Man of Steel
That depends on which turn it comes down. Turn 1 it's a must-counter most of the time, but afterwards it's sometimes just a 3-mana draw 1 for them instead of deploying a threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Man of Steel
The only time i missed YP was in one game in the mirror, but only because i haven`t drawn a TNN. I am convinced that tnn is far superior. My deck is build with oko in mind. Everything is there to beat oko and it worked. I smashed all the oko decks. The only game i lost to oko, was game one in the finals, whre my Miracle opponent dazed!! my TNNQuote:
Originally Posted by DKK
Shenanigans beats up on the artifact hate cards like no other card can. I dont have room in the mirror for the abrades. So i didn`t miss them. If i would want a card for elves or the mirror, it would definitly be Blazing Volley.
My argument for GQ over blood moon is, that most of the eldrazi aggro players don`t play Wastes and against post blood moon hasen`t worked for me, because it was too slow to denie them there mana.
Fiery Islet was amazing. I had only one game, where it hurded me twice. And it is very good against Choke
BTW i have no idea how to beat the red eldrazi deck. Any Thoughts on that or other questions?
I've had a discussion with a local delver player about how to side against Snowko Miracles and we both had really different angles of attack. He was convinced that going all out aggression with Bolts gave him his best shot while I believe Bolt cards are the worse cards I could keep. My list is obviously a little different than the stock lists but it's because my approach with Delver aims at:
A) make the best Arcanist deck possible, and;
B) have a strong plan against Control decks
My boarding plan involves taking my 4 Bolts, 2 Chains, and 2 Wastelands for 3 Pyroblasts, 3 Thoughtseize, and 2 Bitterblossoms. I play 1 USea as a 19th land exactly for SB Thoughtseize and Blossoms so I can get a free splash against Control and Combo decks. I never side out my Forces in control matchups for any deck really because the game is usually decided over a select few spells or permanents. I keep all 4 Daze because they are useful all the way to turn 4 against Oko/Teferi/Mentor backed by Veil/Pierce. Daze is useful when using TS against an untapped land to counter a potential Veil/Brainstorm or when slamming a T2 threat on the draw and still protect from Oko. When it sucks, it pitches to Force. Perhaps my approach is a little off and Bolt is better than I give it credit for given that it can instantly dispatch Coatl, kills the occasional Mentor, and makes Arcanist more of a threat overall (especially against Elks). Wasteland is definitely a card I wouldn't mind cutting entirely from this matchup and maybe having access to a full set of Bolts beats Daze #3-4. What do yall think?
List for reference:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dreadhorde Arcanist
2 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Brazen Borrower
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
1 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Chain Lightning
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Mountain
//SB
1 Magmatic Sinkhole
2 Abrade
3 Pyroblast
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Bitterblossom
I'm not familiar with U/R Delver but rather with RUG Delver so consider the following as the way I board with RUG:Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
I would never side out bolt vs Control MUs. Reach is what will get you there (Especially when playing with Arcanist).
14 colored mana source is all you need. The game will go long so you'll eventually get to 5 lands.
I would cut 5 lands from your list making sure to keep 14 blue source (so -4 wasteland - 1 mountain).
Then, I would consider what is the less impacting cards you have left:
- Preordain vs Ponder.
Ponder is better at finding your second land drop so I would cut Preodain here.
-> -2 preordain.
Now onto the last one :
-> I would consider cutting one chain here. You can also cut 2 chains and leave 1 preordain in (which might be the way to go since you are adding a third color to your deck and you wanna profit them all)
8 cards in / 8 cards off.
Job done.
Ralf
-4 Wasteland
-1 Mountain
-2 Chain Lightning
-1 Daze
+3 Thoughtseize
+3 Pyroblast
+2 Bitterblossom
This is exactly how I ended up boarding :PQuote:
Originally Posted by eldub
What do you guys think about boarding in Surgical Extraction as well? Brainstorm, Swords and Terminus seem logical targets, and looking at your opponent's hand can give you crucial information to plan your own turns.
I always thought boarding in Surgical against Miracles was a mistake. Even with Mystic Sanctuary recycling Miracles, Surgical is still a mistake in my book. I never counter removal against them because they have much more removal spells than win conditions. The only occasion I recall countering removal was at a GP during the SDT era where I had a Delver + 2 Bolt + 2 FoW opener and my entire game plan relied on getting in with Delver in order to leverage Bolt. Note that this was during G1 because my G2 plan at the time had a no-Bolt plan. A card like Terminus when it is cast reduces the Miracle's player removal density but does not reduce our own deck's threat density. This is an important point in a grindy match because I know I will always have 2 TNN to draw into while their Terminus naturally dwindle away. There is no need to go down a card to extract them. Mystic Sanctuary recurring Entreat is probably the most likely scenario that would require some form of GY hate but the fact that it is played as a singleton makes this situation all too narrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by DKK
Whenever I see a Delver player bring in Surgical against Miracles I feel it is more a symptom of a lack of planning for that particular matchup. I can't imagine someone thinking they have a strong boarding plan against Miracles because they pack a few Surgicals. If you have enough counterspells and a few dedicated grind cards to bring in, Surgicals won't cross your mind when your deck has no chaff left in it.
On a related note, I believe Cling to Rust is an interesting SB option against Snapcaster and Mystic Sanctuary. It's basically a Counter + Draw spell that can also steadily eat at your GY at EoT for 4 mana and grants you a free card.
I think the first Surgical is defensible against White control. Swords to Plowshares is a real beating (less so in UR, but definitely in RUG or Grixis where you're protecting Gurmag or Mangdrills & Goyf).
Cling to Dust is an excellent card, very synergistic in Grixis Delver. I was playing one in the Main deck even before switching over to RUG recently.
https://static.cardmarket.com/img/62...IKO/451153.jpg
Looks like a perfect fit. Blue, haste, flying and grows permanently.
Its underwhelming. I'd rather go back to prowess builds than play this.Quote:
Originally Posted by DKK
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Comparing it to Stormchaser Mage:Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Pro: grows permanently
Con: starts with 1 toughness instead of 3
Effectively you get more damage for a bit more vulnerability to Bolt in the first 1-2 turns.
With Brazen Borrower afoot, I don't think it's playable; counters on something that vulnerable is asking for problems. It costs a lot to get it out of bolt range.Quote:
Originally Posted by DKK
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
This card needed First Strike and not Haste to be useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=25355&d=381225&f=LE
Spicy. Looks different than I would have imagined it, but I may try it out.
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Hey guys,
Ever since the card was spoiled, am scratching my head over Sea Gate Stormcaller. Admittedly I have not sleeved up UR Delver in a while, preferring the joys of Reanimation spells. But this card is drawing me back to it.
It offers some powerful lines (double bolt, double ponder,... double PoP) and has a good synergy with the rest of the deck, especially with Arcanist (unlike Snapcaster). Its most obvious drawbacks being the lack of flash and of evasion, it kinda contends for the 2 CMC slots which in UR is already pretty packed (YPyro, Arcanist, Snapcaster, Dragon, Petty Theft).
What are your thoughts on the card?
it is inherently a slow value card like snapcaster rather than a threat like Y Pyro. Additionally, the best cards to pair with it are black: Village Rites, Cabal Therapy. It is a good card but will only see play in slower decks like grixis control, punishing thieves, astrolabe soup or Nic Fit IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocco111
Unfortunately the biggest drawback is consuming a lot of mana. Sea Gate Stormcaller contends with the 3-4 CMC slots, not the 2 CMC slot. You need to cast another spell that turn, so it's not really a 2 drop, and the kicker is unplayable outside of a control deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocco111
It probably has a place in a more controlling Legacy deck, but it's just too slow for Delver. UR Delver doesn't even want Snapcaster.
Edit: Sprite Dragon is still putting up good numbers for this deck, e.g. 3rd place legacy challenge:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=27673&d=419797&f=LE
Maindeck Pyroblast to adapt to the meta.
I've been playing around with a more Sligh version this year, using the UR Prowess plan of Monastery Swiftspear over the slower Sprite Dragon.
//Lands: 16
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Fiery Islet
//Creatures: 12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Dreadhorde Arcanist
//Spells: 32
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Daze
2 Force of Negation
2 Fireblast
//Sideboard: 15
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Blazing Volley
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Submerge
12 threats, 12 cantrips, 10 burn, 10 free counters.
It's a fairly linear proactive plan, where you're happy to play precombat spells for Prowess/Arcanist.
This can goldfish on T3 several different ways, while countering something, trying to end the game before value engines come online or combo gets a 2nd wind.
I couldn't find a UR Delver thread. For a lack of other place to discuss this, I'm posting here.
pre-Ragavan Delver is already Tier 1:
Legacy Open 1st Place: https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=30875&d=440163&f=LE
Legacy Open Top 8: https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=30875&d=440169&f=LE
Legacy Challenge 4th: https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=30925&d=440450&f=LE
Legacy Prelim 3rd place: https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=30940&d=440517&f=LE
Legacy Prelim 6th place: https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=30940&d=440520&f=LE
That's just from the last week.
Most people are on a higher curve list with 19 lands, Ethereal Forager, and only Delver in the 1 mana spot.
//Lands: 19
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
//Creatures: 13
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Sprite Dragon
3 Ethereal Forager
2 Brazen Borrower
//Spells: 28
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
4 Expressive Iteration
4 Daze
2 Force of Negation
//Sideboard: 15
2 Abrade
2 Blazing Volley
1 Blood Moon
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Null Rod
3 Pyroblast
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
I'm interested in this 3rd place list because it's a lot closer to the lower-to-the-ground UR Prowess build I've been playing lately.
//Lands: 16
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Fiery Islet
//Creatures: 14
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Sprite Dragon
2 Brazen Borrower
//Spells: 30
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Preordain
4 Daze
4 Expressive Iteration
//Sideboard: 15
2 Abrade
1 Blazing Volley
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Negation
2 Price of Progress
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Rough / Tumble
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
Before Expressive Iteration was printed, I was on the same thing with:
-4 Expressive
+2 FoN
+1 Preordain
+1 flex slot (Forked Bolt, 4th Chain, etc)
-1 Islet
+1 basic
The engine is very efficient. Swiftspear and Sprite can hit for a lot of damage while chaining cantrips and burn. Maindeck Borrower is important for answering things you can't burn (and Chalice). Expressive Iteration ensures a smooth stream of cards, and now Ragavan potentially does too.
I think this is a good starting point. Ragavan will provide both mana and cards on an empty board, so it just needs help keeping an open game state and staying protected. Without Swiftspear it won't have the same aggressive burn-type wins and won't need Preordain as much (less cheesy chaining 1 mana cantrips for Prowess). Keeping FoN seems important as protection, while Ragavan and Iteration can recover the lost cards. Forager doesn't necessarily help this plan. You already have cheaper ways to generate cards and just want spells to protect them. That means you don't need as many fetches either to fuel Delve. At the top end Borrower seems more important, removing Chalice and blockers that don't die to Bolt. Going back to Wasteland is probably correct too, as Ragavan leans into a more control version. You want to keep opponent from doing things, while there are ways to draw gas without Islet.
PROPOSED LIST:
//Creatures: 15
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
3 Sprite Dragon
2 Brazen Borrower
2 Murktide Regent
//Spells: 27
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
4 Daze
3 Expressive Iteration
1 Force of Negation
//Lands: 18
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
//Sideboard: 15
2 Abrade
1 Blazing Volley
1 Pyrokinesis
2 Meltdown
3 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
Edit: -1 Dismember, -1 Iteration, -1 Narset, -1 Volley, -1 Sprite Dragon, -1 FoN, -1 Relic
+1 Wasteland, +1 Forked Bolt, +1 Pyrokinesis, +2 Meltdown, +2 Regent
UR is the single worst color set vs Goyf. Get Failwhale straight out of there. Here's why DHA was playable: 1x Bolt = actually 2x Bolt and a clean 1 for 1 with Goyf. Delve-Dragon is the first card [since DHA] that beats Goyf in UR. You run this, and you overtake Goyf with tempo. Failwhale is awful, get it out.
Wait, what's failwhale? If you mean Ethereal Forager, there are 0 copies.
Edit: UR is weak to Goyf, though there is Petty Theft and Submerge to gain tempo instead of going bigger. Goyf is a relatively small share of the meta. Going big for the Delve-Dragon does beat Goyf, but it pushes back towards the slower 19 land Delve builds. What would it replace? Borrower? That makes you weaker to Chalice and also weaker to early big bodies like Goyf/Angler/Mandrils.