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From what I believe is accurate testing 2/2 on the split is the best. Because with 3/3 or 4/4 you just often at times start to rely on Cruel Bargain or Infernal Contract and TES doesn't rely on anything at the moment. Which happens to be one of it's strengths, also, with too many Ponders/Brainstorm effects you begin to concentrate too much on cantripping. When this happens your Gemstone Mine finds it's way to the graveyard a lot faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
With this testing, what has been your average goldfish? It seems that it's still Turn 2 with protection in the form of Chant. If Chant gets countered, you can easily slowroll your opponent through cantripping and Draw 4s until you bait him out.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
I can't really tell you an average, although I have to say I've been pulling off a lot more turn one's with Ponder AND Draw 4's in the deck. Turn one Ponder finding LED is simply amazing, however, turn one Dark Ritual into a Draw 4 usually means game over. If I had to guess, I'd say anywhere between 1.5 and 2, so about 1.75? It all depends on how you're comfortable winning too. If you're not afraid of going for Warrens, it could be as low as 1.25, honestly. I believe my newest list is almost as fast as Belcher but more stable and has a better control match-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
What is your approach against control? Go for the throat or slowroll them? Perhaps it's hand dependent?Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
I stopped the slowroll plan. It's bullshit. You can sometimes win, however, more than likely their hand is better. Your hand is almost always better turns 1-3. Comboing off sooner is always better than later.
I know how good resolving a Draw4 is, I was the first person to suggest it in the deck, but it's risk vs reward, for the times that a Draw4 slips thru', I often would have won regardless, for the times the Draw4 countered, I wonder whether or not it was an optimal use of resources. Ponder is the more consistent card, but it's also the less impressive card, you just have to decide which of those two factors is more important to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
What do people think of replacing the 2 Cabal Rituals with Ponder? I was doing a ton of testing yesterday and found Cabal Ritual to be underwhelming. I'm doing some more testing with EPIC tonight, I'll let people know how it goes. I'm afraid 10 draw spells might be overkill, or If I'm still spending too much time cantripping. Who knows it might be different with 2 draw 4's in the deck.
Ponder is better as a 2of, IMO. I played 4 for a little bit, but found them to be all that I had. I felt that 6 Cantrips was a very good number because you only want to see one.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
I really like Cabal Ritual. Sure, it is not as great as Dark Rit, but it aloows me to cast Draw 4s easier and when you can get thresh with them, you will most likely win. I also like having more rituals in the deck because it does make the deck faster than 2 Ponders.
Please let me know how the testing goes.
4 ponder, 4 brainstorm, and 2 draw 4's is just way too clunky. The draw 4's can be clunky even with 2 cabal rits, but when you drop them it is so much worse. Opening hands with 2 cantrips are pretty weak too.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
In my testing 7 cantrips was the absolute maximum. At 6 I found myself wanting to open with a cantrip more often, but once I started playing 7 I was getting hands with 2 and 3 cantrips a bit too often for my liking. Adding the 7th cantrip would also mean cutting a cabal rit, which I didn't want to do.
Hey everyone. I just finished my TES list last night (Ok, I'm missing 2 Orim's Chants). My list is the same as Wastedlife's current list. I came home and goldfished around 20 games, and was winning consistently on turns 2-3. This deck is amazingly consistent and powerful.
That said, I have trouble knowing when to mulligan. So I'll present some sample hands and you'll tell me whether or not to mulligan. Thanks.
Hand 1:
Brainstorm
LED
2x Dark Ritual
Brainstorm
Empty the Warrens
2x Orim's Chant
I assume you mulligan this one.
Hand 2:
LED
Rite of Flame
Simian Spirit Guide
Infernal Tutor
Burning Wish
Dark Ritual
Brainstorm
Hand 3:
Ill-Gotten Gains
Rite of Flame
Cabal Ritual
2x Infernal Tutor
Lion's Eye Diamond
Brainstorm
Hand 4:
City of Brass
2x Brainstorm
Simian Spirit Guide
Burning Wish
Gemstone Mine
Orim's Chant
Hand 5:
LED
Gemstone Mine
Undiscovered Paradise
Burning Wish
2x Infernal Tutor
Brainstorm
Hand 6:
2x LED
Gemstone Mine
City of Brass
Orim's Chant
Cabal Ritual
Ill-Gotten Gains
Hand 7:
Gemstone Mine
Chrome Mox
2x Burning Wish
Infernal Tutor
LED
Orim's Chant
Thanks for the help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
Why dreturns?Quote:
Hand 7:
Gemstone Mine
Chrome Mox
2x Burning Wish
Infernal Tutor
LED
Orim's Chant
Keep- This hand is probably a turn 2 win if you are undisrupted. Turn one mine mox imprinting a wish. Tutor for LED. Next turn drop LED's and wish for dreturns.
Why not, "led, led, wish for igg, igg, led, led, tutor for igg, led, led, tutor for tendrils, tendrils"
Here is what i would do:
Quote:
Hand 1:
Brainstorm
LED
2x Dark Ritual
Brainstorm
Empty the Warrens
2x Orim's Chant
Mull. if you kp on the draw and if you drew 1 land/petal/mox, you could brainstorm for tutor and win. But It's 18 chance out of 53 to get the land/lotus/mox and then 24 chance out of 52 to get the tutor.
Hand 2:
LED
Rite of Flame
Simian Spirit Guide
Infernal Tutor
Burning Wish
Dark Ritual
Brainstorm
Mull. Same as hand 1.
Hand 3:
Ill-Gotten Gains
Rite of Flame
Cabal Ritual
2x Infernal Tutor
Lion's Eye Diamond
Brainstorm
Mull. Same as hand 1 and 2
Hand 4:
City of Brass
2x Brainstorm
Simian Spirit Guide
Burning Wish
Gemstone Mine
Orim's Chant
Depends of the matchup. You have lands and 2 BS, but you have no accelerator. So you probably won't combo until turn 3.
Hand 5:
LED
Gemstone Mine
Undiscovered Paradise
Burning Wish
2x Infernal Tutor
Brainstorm
Keep. Bs turn one and win turn 2 if you draw a led/ritual. Or infernal turn 2 for a led and win turn 3.
Hand 6:
2x LED
Gemstone Mine
City of Brass
Orim's Chant
Cabal Ritual
Ill-Gotten Gains
You need a tutor here. So it depends of the matchup, if i had the time to wait for a tutor, i would keep.
Hand 7:
Gemstone Mine
Chrome Mox
2x Burning Wish
Infernal Tutor
LED
Orim's Chant
Keep, a strong hand.
Hand One: Mulligan
Hand Two: Keep on the Draw
Hand Three: Mulligan
Hand Four: Keep
Hand Five: keep
Hand Six: Keep
Hand Seven: Keep
I'm not very aggressive when it comes to mulliganing, those were also a lot of shitty hands.
Ok, about Sideboarding now:
I'm running:
3x Pyroblast
2x Abeyance
1x REB
1x Hull Breach
1x Infernal Contract
1x IGG
1x DReturns
1x Duress
1x Cave-In
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x EtW
1x Tranquility
Seems fairly standard. Anyway, I was just looking for some help SBing in the Abeyances and Pyroblasts/REB. For instance, I want to board all that in vs. Landstill, but I'm afraid to cut anything.
I was reading the first post of the old thread again to see if there was something I might have missed, a trick, strategy, or just some inspiration and I read this (by Wastedlife):
For example, you have a Burning Wish on the stack, Lion’s Eye Diamond on the stack and a red, four black mana and an untapped City of Brass. In hand is Plunge into Darkness, Brainstorm, and Diminishing Returns. To do this correctly before passing priority you must in response cast Plunge into Darkness, then respond with Brainstorm, respond to that by sacrificing Lion’s Eye Diamond. That gives you the best means of abusing Lion’s Eye Diamond, while the order of Brainstorm or Plunge into Darkness may not matter but Burning Wish must be the first spell since it is a sorcery.
This struck me because I play and have played the deck a lot (like really a lot), and never do this. If in this situation would you do this? I would first cast brainstorm before even playing the Wish, because I might find a Petal+Chant, or just something good, like enough mana and ways to go off while wishing for a Duress and playing it. It also says there is a LED on the stack but I assume that's a typo.
About sideboarding, the cards I board out in some matchups are: 4 Chant, 3 Ponder, 2 Plunge, 2 Chrome Mox, 1 Cabal ritual. Against something like Thresh if I would want to board in 5 cards it would be 2 Plunge, 2 Ponder, 1 Mox.
For reference I run: 1 EtW, 4 Cabal ritual, 3 Ponder, 2 Plunge, 4 Chant.(0 Abayence, X. Swarm, Duress, Confidant, Simian Spirit Guide) And I am trying 1 Tarnished Citadel.
My Sideboard is:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Dark Confidant
1 ToA
1 EtW
1 IGG
1 Returns
1 Duress
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
I used to play -4 Confidant +3 Duress +1 Rough//Tumble and I am not sure which is better yet, I am trying the Confidants side. I found against some 4c Landstill the other day, my Confidants got blown up all the time altough it was Sb, by Deed, EExplosives and Engineered Plague. I am afraid this will happen against many decks, but I will see. The duresses were very good, serving against other combodecks, non-counter hate, or to protect a Chant against FoW.
Hmm, it seems that I play a lot like you.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
I hate having to mull in a deck with 10 lands :mad:
I have found that the deck mulligans extremly well. I mean it might seem rough to go down to 5/6 cards, but when you are playing so many broken cards you will still be fine. LED is just insane. This is probably the only combo deck that can mull to 4 and win turn one on the play.Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07
How is that possible? You need 2 mana cards+ 2 LEDs+1 Tutor, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
If you keep a hand with Lotus Petal or Land, Dark Ritual, LED and Infernal Tutor. You can tutor for Diminishing Returns and draw the kill. There are many ways to kill your opp this way.
Difficult since D.Returns is a incredibly random card. But with Lotus Petal it's possible since you then already have a good Stormcount and can still play a Landdrop. But you fizzle to FoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeddlingMage001
Not true, Ichorid can do the same, even with 3 cards: LED, Deep Analysis, Golgari Grave-trollQuote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
Well, SI can do it. Neither deck has a very good chance of it seeing as it requires a mana source, dark ritual, draw4, and another mana source/nutty draw4 into more of the same (or 2x LED, Infernal Tutor), but it is possible (I've done it).Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
Not true since that won't win. You would need to dredge 3 Moebas, 2 Bridges, 1 more GGT and Flamekin Zealot, Dread Return and blahstuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by matelml
He just said that it CAN win with this hand, although the chances aren't very high.
Exactly, but the chances of winning the first turn on the play with dark Ritual, LED, Infernal Tutor and Lotus Petal aren't very high either.
Edit: Let's get on topic again.
I guess I should have said competitive combo deck. We all know ichorid is a pile. Breakfast sure as hell doesnt mull as well as TES does and neither does belcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by matelml
SI mulls fairly well, but it is too much of a glasscannon deck.
I'm finally happy to be at a message board with people who share the same opinion.
Ichorid, in 1.5, is bad.
Ugh, lol.
I think I actually use Infernal Tutor much more often to just search for the 2nd LED to win.
Yeah, if i have Tutor and Wish/another Tutor, and a LED, i just grab another LED, and win!
TES is vastly better than Ichorid, stop debating that!
I won a small local tournament (only 12 people) two days ago while piloting TES -- and it definitely was a lot of fun.
I played the following list:
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Forbidden Orchard
1x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Rite of Flame
2x Tinder Wall
4x Dark Ritual
1x Cabal Ritual
3x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Burning Wish
2x Plunge into Darkness
2x Orim's Chant
2x Xantid Swarm
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Storm Entity
1x Infernal Contract
1x Night's Whisper
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Intuition
Sideboard:
Empty the Warrens
Tendrils of Agony
Ill-Gotten Gains
Diminishing Returns
Hull Breach
Pyroclasm
Orim's Chant
Xantid Swarm
Xantid Swarm
Pyroblast
Duress
Seething Song
Seething Song
Simian Spirit Guide
Shattering Spree
I kind of like Storm Entity, which has won me some games where I was short on mana, but I am not quite sure this is an objectively good card. Any thoughts?
I am still testing Intuition, which is why I only play one... It is very expensive for a tutor (the U in its cost can be hard to get in this deck), but the synergy with Ill-Gotten Gains is simply crazy. What do you people think? Is it worth it?
One thing I definitely need to do is to put Ponder or Night's Whisper in Sideboard -- from time to time I have a Burning Wish and no suitable target for it: not enough mana for Infernal Contract and too low storm count to win immediately... What do you think? Which one would be better?
I do not think Mystical Tutor is all that good, I will probably remove it.
I am not sure about the right number of Brainstorms and Ponders... I only play 4 in total, but that's because I really hate seeing them in multiples.
I did not have any really hard matchups this time, but here is what I faced:
Round 1 -- Zoo
This, actually, is not as easy as one could think. This Zoo deck (played, actually, by my wife) kills turn 4 very easily, surprisingly often turn 3, and is perfectly capable of dealing ~10 damage turn 2 (so draw 4s are always risky and winning via EtW is only an option turn 1).
I won first game turn 2, faced a Lightning Helix in response to Tendrils for 20 in second game, and won game three with 14 goblins on the first turn.
Round 2 -- Goblins
This turned out pretty easy. First game I drew a rather crazy hand, with 2xLED, 2xPetal, Ritual, Tutor and something else. I comboed turn two, since there is no reason to hurry against Goblins. Game two was a bit slower, but still far from difficult.
Round 3 -- Faerie Stompy (?)
I am not entirely sure what did he play, since I have never really seen how is he supposed to win the game... But it surely looked like some kind of Faerie Stompy. Is there anything else that plays Chalice, Tinker Mage and FoW?
Anyway, game one he began with Land, Chrome Mox, Chalice@1, turn 2 Tinker Mage, turn 3 Chalice@2 and Chalice@1... It didn't look all that well for me, but fortunately he did not have anything left in his hand to put pressure on me after that. Five or six turns later I played LED, Petal, Brainstorm and Ritual, followed by Empty the Warrens. He Force of Willed one copy, but 8 goblins turned out to be enough to kill him.
Game two started with Chalice@1, I Burning Wished for Shattering Spree, then he played Tinker Mage and Chalice@2. One turn before he would kill me with Sulfur Elemental I tried to go off, casting Infernal Contract, but he tapped one of my lands Pestermite and I run out of mana.
Game three I managed to get off using Igg and Tendrils, but I do not remember the details.
Against the Faerie Stompy, in game one, how did you play the cmc 1 and 2's? you stated that he played chalices at 1 and 2, seeing as it was the first game, i doubt you brought in shattering sprees, and you couldn't burning wish. -> chalice set on 2. Also, why did he set chalice at 1 twice?Quote:
Originally Posted by esmandil
Am I missing something?
Also, storm entity is an interesting include, just be mindful of swords. TES is good because swords has little to no effect on us, don't open that possibility.
I played with intuition, nights whisper, mystical tutor before. They arn't that great honestly. The demonic tutor and burning wish are good enough for tutors. The mystical tutor requires one turn setup most of the time, nights whispers arn't synergistic with the Draw4's. Intuition costs too much, the other tutors are better.
How has tinder wall been? I haven't tried it yet, it does look interesting though. Plunge into Darkness isn't that good. It comboes with Empty the Warren tokens, but the life loss from Draw4's isn't worth it.
Yes. Read the card. Chalice counters spells of cmc X, it doesn't prevent you from playing them. It's like Nether Void, but lots of people forget that.Quote:
Originally Posted by No_One411
okay, nvm. my bad, I didn't read carefully. You just played the spells to up your storm count. Sorry!
I made top 8 at the Belgian Championship (129 players) with TES yesterday with 5-1-2. Only lost in T8 from Dragonstompy (main Chalice+3sphere can hurt). The draws were ID's against UWb Landstill and some mono R aggresive Control when I was 5-0-1 anyway. The metagame was really good for me, the most played decks was Loam I think, after that Thresh hybrids and then pretty much anything, including a fair amount of Aggro, much Board Control, and some Landstill.
There was another TES deck with 5-2, and there was one that was 4-0-1 the last time I checked it, but probably lost the rounds after that.
My list was a little different from the one I was 2nd with at the Dutch Championship. The changes were: -1 Tomb of Urami, -2 EtW, -1 Chrome Mox, -Sb Rough//Tumble, +1 Tarnished Citadel, +2 Ponder, +1 Simian Spirit Guide, +1 Sb Ponder.
The whole decklist:
4 Orim's chant
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
2 Plunge into Darkness
3 Ponder
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox
1 Simian Spirit Guide
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel
Sideboard:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree
1 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Xantid Swarm
I was happy with the changes and the whole decklist except for the Ponder Sb. I knew it wouldn't be very good, but I thought Rough//Tumble was worse. But it's probably a little better, I am still searching for a good wishable card or something that matters when you board it in once.
The reasoning for the SSG was that having double Mox always sucks.
I added the Ponders because it gives you more options and doesn't force you to go for tokens and I found the EtW would often be a dead card.
Because I have 4 Brainstorm, 3 Ponder and 4 Chant I decided to take out Tomb for something that can cast those spells. It was good and I never had a problem with the life, I even Ponderd off it turn 1 against Goyf sligh and it didn't matter at all. Remember you can use for free colorless mana.
Matteus
Sorry, a typo on my part, the last chalice was on 3. And yes, I just played the spells to get sufficient storm count.Quote:
Originally Posted by No_One411
Yes, I know Entity is vulnerable to Swords, but game 1 I only intend to use it if I cannot win any other way, and games 2&3 opponents are likely to board Swords out anyway. I am not sure, however, if Entity shouldn't simply be in the sideboard...Quote:
Originally Posted by No_One411
I must say I like Night's Whisper most of the time -- in some situations it works better than Draw 4, so I like to have both in the deck. I agree that Intuition is expensive, but it sets one up for Ill-Gotten Gains win like nothing else, so I am still undecided about it. I agree that Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor are better, but for me 8 tutors is not quite enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by No_One411
I like it. It is great as a setup card, netting you two mana, and it is not too bad on combo turn (getting green can be a problem, but it often seems to work).Quote:
Originally Posted by No_One411
Well, Plunges are reasonably good tutors 8&9, in my opinion. I actually believe that there is a good balance of Intuition, Plunge, Night's Whisper and Draw4 which I have not yet been able to find... but I am working on it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by No_One411
New thread here.