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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I understand that people are desperate to find new cards to play in Stax, but a lot of these fall well short of addressing the actual needs of the current build, at least in my opinion.
Scourglass is a weak alternative to other options. Yes, it will kill all creatures. Yes, it will kill all enchantments. Yes, it is a permanent. But... it takes 2 turns and you can only activate it during your upkeep and it costs 5 mana and it blows up our creatures and enchantments. What decks play both creatures and enchantments that we would care about? Survival? 5 mana and two turns is pretty slow against a deck that only needs 1 mana to find an answer and 2-3 to play it. Enchantress? We don't even board specific answers for enchantress since their is (no offense to enchantress players intended) no such thing as an 'enchantress-heavy meta'. Outside of those two decks, who would we play this against? It will kill a Deed against those decks, if they don't activate it before our next upkeep (Needle stops it dead and doesn't kill my Prison or Tabernacle). It will kill a goblin/elf hoard (Magus or Prison plus an Armageddon does a good job of that too, I hear, not to mention Wrath of God is playable when necessary). I think you can mold a build to include this, but you need to rework several areas of the deck.
Sanctum Gargoyle is also not good. Treasure Hunter does the same thing a turn earlier and its not really playable. Yes, Gargoyle is an artifact which has some synergy, but it also dies to Naturalize, Disenchant, Krosan Grip, etc. all of which you will face post-board anyhow.
I think one question that I have for the folks who play this deck, is how do you play it? What are your primary and secondary goals or objectives? [Please don't answer with smart ass 'to win'-type answers]
For me, against an unknown opponent, I tend to focus on eliminating my opponents options (board control) or forcing them away from their game-plan (mana disruption) depending on what my opening seven shows me. Once I understand their game plan (or know what deck they are playing), I will typically drive towards specifics (i.e. Prison-Tabernacle-'Geddon vs aggro or 3-Sphere-Chalice-'Geddon vs 'control' - sorry for the generalization). While it may sound obvious, I don't believe this is a universal way to play the deck. Several folks play Cataclysm - it does not work if you play the deck like I do since I rely on multiple artifacts/enchantments to fully lock my opponent out of options and Cataclysm does not help that. Maindecking Exalted Angel also creates other avenues for play. It may seem odd to state, but when I did play Angel, i played the deck very different than I play my current build. Stax also offers a lot of 'tricks' beyond the natural synergies (i.e. Flagstones-Crucible-Smokestack = natural while Gods' Eye-Crucible-Smokestack = trick, etc.) almost none of which I employ - I tend to play a very 'clinical' game. My sideboarding plans would also seem unorthodox because of my comfort level with this deck.
I'm interested in hearing how others approach their gameplan because I think it leads directly into which cards offer the best maindeck/sideboard set-up and which cards offer the highest 'comfort' level with the deck.
Just some food for thought...
-FB...
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Aside from the new angel. the new planeswalkers, and cannonist for the sideboard, I havn't really seen any other card thats worth testing. Gargoyle dies too easily just like windborn muse does. Scourglass is just plain slow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fred Bear
I think one question that I have for the folks who play this deck, is how do you play it? What are your primary and secondary goals or objectives? [Please don't answer with smart ass 'to win'-type answers]
The metagame which your playing at, may actually affect the way you play stax as well.
Against an unknown opponent on the first game,I play the deck and primarily focus on the lock at first, I don't usually rely on a smokestack win but rather an angel win (this is because most decks here are aggro oriented with a few combo and some control) . Once I know their deck, then I switch strategies, siding out angel against decks that I think would be better off winning via lock like threshold. Im not sure if this is the right way to play against thresh, but thats how I decided on the last tournament I went to.
I primarily focus on the lock, wanting trinispheres and chalices early followed by magus of the tabernacle to stall the game , even win with him if it permits or a game ending armageddon. If I get a very good lock early my primary win con is smokestack/armageddon,if not I go angel which is really important for an agrro metagame. Most times I go down to 8 or below life before I even get to stabilize.
I mostly play the same general list except that I do not run the tabernacle land and armageddon 5/6(which is ravages of war).5 armageddon effects would have been perfect, but since I don't have ravages. I replace ravages of war with 2 oblivion rings. When alara comes out this will be the place I would test the 2 planes walkers or or the angel.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Hello,
Its been awhile since ive played magic for about 4-5 years or so, during the last legacy tournament ive played in i fought with geddon stax, and sad to say i just rolled over it. I din't know what his exact deck list was, but i was expecting that i will defenitly loose bec im using a white aggro deck. I had i high hopes in stax decks cause before i stopped playing magic i tinkered over several stax deck for legacy but i end up using wildfire stax during those times there where no magus of taberncale then.
I haven't played with any geddon stax other than that but, just a curious question on the geddon stax players here, i dont see any wrath of god nor swords to plowshares on the sb list, but what are you going to do when the magus of tabernacle + geddon + smokestack lock isn't online when faced with a easy to cast whamo creature like ernham or calciderm. I know oblivion ring can deal with that temporarly thats why i like them.
I guess what im trying to say is a typical senario is something like this. i control 2 serra avenger and 1 or 2 diamonds & 1 or 2 lands while the geddon stax player controls a magus of tabernacle, trinisphere, and without a draw engine or library manipulation while you wait for a smokestack or a geddon and when your opponent can overcome the temporary soft lock his more or less going to beat you to a pulp when he draws a SoFI or Jitte. Like what happened when i played against the geddon stax. Trinishpere, magus + geddon combo didnt affect the deck im using.
And with no anti enchantment / artifact nor pithing needle on several SBs just only depending on smokestack or oblivion ring to deal with it is kinda slow.
I know tons of play test have already done in the geddon stax deck by different player i know cause a stax deck needs alot of practice to be able to play it at its maximum potential.
has anybody tried using Endless Horizons, thus thinning the deck so you could build the lock faster.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
First on endless horizon, it just doesn't suit the deck. It still only allows you to put one land into play a turn. Costs such that it usually isn't played till turn 3 and effect the game till turn 4. By that time you should have plenty of lands or are already in trouble. It also takes the plains out of the deck so there is less flagstone>plains interactions. Also, what do you take out for it? It isn't a lock piece, we dont' run that many plains, and we already have crucible to help with land problems. Perhaps in another deck...
One piece of the puzzle that you didn't seem to have to deal with in your run in against stax was ghostly prison or windborn muse. Personally I dont' think most agro strategies are what this deck fears at all. Just out of my own list I run 3 x magus, 2 x tabernacle, 4 x prison, 2 x muse. Those along with 4 armageddons seem to deal with most agro, unless I get unlucky, rather well. I know that my deck runs a bit more anti agro effects than some decks, with the extra tabernacle and 2 muses, but still. Hell, I even run 2 x cataclysm because of the randomness of many meta's I play in. Also, andy deck that runs equipment like jitte makes me want to bring in my s fields.
I think running a sb with no anti enchant/artifact removal or pithing is a wrong move overall. I dont' remember any though that didn't at least run o ring.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Welll I have encountered that problem during the gP, a single meddling mage equipped with a jitte killed me, this is also because he had counter back up. Ghostly prisons doesn't actually stop single creatures from killing you, armageddons with prisons only delay them for a couple of turns, unless they never draw a land.
If you don't get a good hand and a lock early on its usually game over if they get a creature equipped with jitte, unless you can top deck an O. ring or magus/geddon in time. A single creature swinging with a jitte, SOFI actually hurts this deck a lot. Solution will almost always be, get the lock early, delay it until you can get the lock , O. ring, MAgus and armageddon.
I don't actually think we have a problem with swarm aggro. Singleton creatures protected by counter spells is usually what gives me a problem. . I really don't see armageddon stax rolling over to aggro that isn't protected by counterspells. Each player has his own version and own list, but as of the general list, It won't roll over to aggro at all. Maybe he was playing a different list or a different version of stax.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
And as we all know there is always the chance that the deck just craps out. It happens, and boy does it look terrible when it does.
Yeah, and yes, singleton creatures with a sword can be rather problematic, luckily jitte is easier to hate on with s field.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Hello,
being a stax player myself and having an idea what geddon stax weak points are because it doesn't run STP or fast anti creature cards in it, i used that style to beat my opponent, having a gut feel during the tourny that im pretty sure geddon stax doesn't have any STP nor a draw engine i only casted 2 threats or have threats that could swing for 4 damage per turn.
@The Wes
maybe he dosen't have windborn muse but he had executed a magus + geddon combo plus trinishpere in play but i just played through it.
@f|i[p]
we regards to swarm aggro yes the deck could handle it, people who plays swarm aggro most likely is not familiar with a stax deck or doesn't have equips to boost damage. Thats why i specified in my example where ernham djinn or cacliderm type of creatures that could be easily casted on the 3rd turn
Well yes you need to delay them to get your lock parts online but having no tanglewire which could help in that category and zero draw engine and zero library manipulation your just depending on luck and the 4 offs of the cards which could be bad at times when that specific card has been casted already it will be just smokestack food.
The deck i used had zero counter magic, though on game 2 i had an excellent opening hand i dropped a 2nd turn exalted angel then lock the game for him casting geddon on my 3rd turn.
@The Wes
With regards to endless horizons what it does is it thins the deck so that you'll dont end up drawing more plains instead of a lock part. I know its kinda slow if only its casting cost where 2W it would be great.
____________________________________________________________
If only the deck could deal with:
1. "singleton creatures" .
2. achieve a fast soft lock or an efficient way in delaying the opponent.
3. draw engine
Before i switched to wildfire stax, i had conducted several tests for the white stax. And during those test phase i found out that maybe a 2 type stax build + your sideboard could work. 2 types meaning pre board your stax deck is designed to deal with aggro while when you use your SB cards the deck is now designed to combat combo decks.
humility for me is an excellent anti creature card combined with ghostly prison, you'll just laugh at your opponent paying 2cc mana so that his 1/1 token could attack.
A build im just thinking im not sure if its viable or could work is with the use of humility and enlightened tutor so could get your lock pieces faster. even without the other lock piece in your hand that 1/1 token could buy you alot of time to get your other lock pieces. but with that build your going to get screwed with combo and control decks thats why the SB list must be composed of cards that could change your deck maybe it will work.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I completely agree that it thins the deck. The problem with endless horizons is that it only thins the deck by maybe 7-8 cards max, is subject to you loosing all your plains, is rarely cast before turn 3 and used turn 4, and and negates your flagstones.
I wasn't just comment on him no having windborn, most don't, but your senario also had no prison effects, which is sad for a stax player but just happens sometimes. I do agree that singleton creatures can be a pain, Kor haven has been helping me some with them. I have to say though, that overall I have a winning record against both dragon and faerie stompy which usually rely on a singlton powerful creature and an equipment.
Overall I think I have a much harder time with landstill (recuring mass removal) and survival (damn you so many cards...). Those are the two decks that I always hate going up against.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I'll weigh in on 'weaknesses' since I've been working with this deck for quite a while. This is going to be a long one since I've got a lot to say on the topic...
Not running Swords to Plowshares is NOT a weakness in Stax. In fact, I will come right out and say that Swords in Stax is just plain bad. The reason for this is that Stax relies on 'virtual' card advantage. To explain further, the Stax player requires that each one of his cards negates more than 1 of his opponents. In the case of Swords, you will eliminate 1 creature for the cost of 1, 1CC card. By doing this, you weaken the Stax deck because you can either (A) not cast a Chalice at 1 or (B) cast Chalice at 1 and not cast your Swords. Chalice at 1 is a much stronger play. There are other instances of this that come up from time-to-time. Chalice at 1 is better than Enlightened Tutor. Pithing Needle is often better than Chalice at 1.
Playing against 'Swarm Aggro' is NOT a weakness in Stax. (I will use my experience with Goblins as an example since it is probably still one of the top 'swarm'-style decks.) I do not mean to sound ignorant, but, if you are having issues with Aggro, it is because you do not understand the match-up. Ghostly Prison is a strong card against aggro, but it is not the key card. As erbs points out, it's almost comical watching some opponents pay 2 to deal 1 damage (I often ask if they play Flare, too - for the draw), though, there are times when it is worth it (i.e. Lackey). If the Goblins player pays 2 to hit you with a Lackey and tosses out Siege-Gang, you're in trouble because they now have an alternative path to victory. This is why you will find (after hours and hours of testing) that Magus of the Tabernacle is the real key against most good Aggro decks. Magus (and Tabernacle land) ties up their mana and blocks (not the land obviously - which is why I don't recommend playing it), which is the real benefit. Yes, sometimes you will get hit with a massive Piledriver, but it's because you'll get to block a Lackey or a Warchief or a Siege-Gang, whichever will hurt their position the most. Honestly, if you're not comfortable playing a deck that stabilizes at less than 5 life sometimes, Stax is probably not for you. Where Stax really shines is when you combine Prison with Tabernacle, either with Armageddon, or all three together. This is because you now get that 'virtual' card advantage. Prison + Magus = Opponent with permanents that do nothing. Prison + Armageddon = Opponent with permanents that can't attack. Magus + Armageddon = Opponent with not so many permanents. Prison + Magus + Armageddon = Very frustrated aggro opponent. That, my friend, is synergy.
The 'Lone Wolf' strategy IS often a problem for Stax. In pre-'Goyf Legacy, the worst play this deck could see was Swamp, Ritual, Negator. This opening put you on a 4 turn clock to find at least 2 puzzle pieces (I say 2 because even a Magus alone didn't really stop this since they would just kill it before the attack without a Chalice/Trinisphere for protection). In the post-'Goyf era, a turn 2 'Goyf is one of the worst things you can see. But understanding WHY this is a problem is something that is often lost on the average Stax player. WHY is it a problem? Because the deck's strategy is to look for 'virtual' card advantage, and to specifically NOT deal with a single threat. The question becomes, then, how do you deal with a single threat? You must try to choose a card that does NOT defeat your overall strategy, but answers the 'problem'. Engineered Explosives is a solid option as it can be adapted to remove a single threat or it can blow up several 'problems'. Powder Keg has the same ability. Recently, Oblivion Ring has gained some favor because it is 'faster' at dealing with higher CC problems (i.e. Tombstalker, Deed, Disk, Crucible, etc.). Identifying that Stax is simply NOT designed to deal with this, though, is the most important first step.
Not having a draw engine is NOT a weakness of Stax. I have listened to this argument for months. I have even tested everything from Bottled Cloister to Sylvan Library to Conch Horn (look it up, I'll wait) trying to find something, anything that would fill that void. The bottom line is... if you can't handle playing a deck that requires you to draw and say go quickly so that you can finish games in time, Stax is probably not for you. Stax wins on the back of inevitability. It is within my opponents rights NOT to concede, even when I have Chalice at 1, Trinisphere, Crucible, Smokestack at 1, and 6 lands to their empty board. I will eventually find a Factory or Magus and kill them. All a draw engine does is find it faster. If I'm not is such a dominant position, most of the 'recommended' draw engines either potentially slow you down or are flat out horrid in already bad-to-poor match-ups. In my opinion, speeding up the inevitable is a waste of time and giving up against bad match-ups in order to make good ones better is counter-intuitive. And, yes, sometimes you just have to know when to scoop to a poor draw or an opponent who draws the nuts.
@ erbs
To recap your points - The deck can handle singleton creatures - if it is designed that way. The deck should create a soft lock that slows down the opponent until the knock-out punch comes down - sometimes it doesn't and you just have to deal with the occasional game loss (remember a ~55% win percentage still means you lose 10 out of 22 games). A draw engine is entirely unecessary.
Endless Horizons is crap. I would rather thin my deck of Plains through a Smokestack/Crucible/Flagstones than with a 4cc enchantment that does NOTHING to my opponent. With Endless Horizons, you can't play Flagstones since they are un-removable and can't find a Plains after you've played Horizons which will ultimately weaken Armageddon (through the same effect) and strengthen your opponents Krosan Grips (etc.) which DO get played. This card has no place in this deck.
Humility is a nice thought. But, if you are playing in an environment/meta where you want to play Humility... play a different deck. Turning Magus, or Angel if you play her, into a 1/1 with no abilities is a waste. I tested Humility during Flash Prix and it worked to stop Hulk, but ultimately the rest of your deck is better than Humility.
Enlightened Tutor is, in general, bad. I have more recently been tinkering with lists that MD or sideboard it as a 1-of to give a more adaptable deck. I haven't made it work yet and I haven't seen a really 'good' list that utilizes it - yet.
I have also tried the maindeck-sideboard set-up switcheroo (switching from anti-aggro to anti-combo or anti-control). It's an approach is all I'll say. It's definitely a valid way to set up your deck. For me, I got sick of losing game 1s constantly because you 'guessed' wrong on how to set up the deck. I found that it was best to balance the maindeck and 'strengthen' your position out of the sideboard.
I appreciate your comments, but you are little off on your assessment of Stax' weaknesses based on my experiences. I, by no means, would try and tell someone that Stax doesn't have weaknesses because Stax has them just like other decks.
Just my thoughts...
-FB...
(god I make long posts)
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fred Bear
(god I make long posts)
QFT. And what's worse: they make sense, so I have to read :cry:
Anyway, thanks Fred, it's all true, but you've all said that before:
No offense, but ever since erbs has posted here about Endless Horizons, he has been making points we have talked and argued about 10 pages ago, and it goes back to probably page 5-ish. It's all old discussion and frankly, I don't feel we should head back. We've been there and done it, no need to talk about it all again.
I can only urge new people to this thread to read a bit into the history of it. I know it's alot, but just browse the keywords. In fact, there's a little summary of alot of stuff here (just press the blue thing):
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
Press the blue thing! Here! ^^^
It basically covers most findings up to Shards of Alara (Eventide has proven to be shit). After Shards I might make another update there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_erbs_
when faced with a easy to cast whamo creature like ernham or calciderm. I know oblivion ring can deal with that temporarly thats why i like them.
Besides the fact that no-one uses Ernham Djinn or Calciderms, Oblivion Ring doesn't deal with Calciderm :wink:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_erbs_
Well yes you need to delay them to get your lock parts online but having no tanglewire which could help in that category and zero draw engine and zero library manipulation your just depending on luck and the 4 offs of the cards which could be bad at times when that specific card has been casted already it will be just smokestack food.
You should really read the thread :tongue:
One more thing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_erbs_
The deck i used had zero counter magic, though on game 2 i had an excellent opening hand i dropped a 2nd turn exalted angel then lock the game for him casting geddon on my 3rd turn.
While this is alot of fun, there has been recent discussion as to why an early Exalted Angel isn't always good, you might want to check it out. The "Angel discussion" started somewhere around here (just press the blue thing...again):
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
So please, update yourself and give us your input :smile:
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Endless horizons would simply suck in the deck.It wouldn't be able to provide you anything that would help geddon stax against its bad match ups.
Humility although a strong card, it would just make our slow clock, slower having to rely on man lands. As for me wrath of god on the sideboard has worked wonders for a more aggro metagame.
As for badmatchups, I still have landstill and rock variants as the decks top problem.
Battlegrace angel is on my top list to test for the 2 slots free I have in my deck. I think the angel would suffice,but elspeth may warrant some testing as well.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
@Fred Bear
Thanks for the insightful thoughts with regards to stax. True that stax is a deck that relies on card advantage rather than 1 is to 1 trade.
Have you tried playing a legacy red stax that runs wildfire ?
@Skeggi
Sorry i haven't read the earlier posts with regards to endless horizons..
Yes i guess endless horizons wouldn't fit in this deck.
@f|i[p]
Battlegrace Angel just guessing is a slightly better version of Exalted Angel in terms of cc but dies in 4/4 types of creatures with the likes of Jotun Grunt, etc
If only dawn elemental was a 5/3 creature i guess he could be a nice fit as finisher thats hard to kill, i do hope wizzard gives a white creature thats hard to kill, has an effcient cc, and around 4/4 or 4/5 range
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_erbs_
Battlegrace Angel just guessing is a slightly better version of Exalted Angel in terms of cc but dies in 4/4 types of creatures with the likes of Jotun Grunt, etc
If only dawn elemental was a 5/3 creature i guess he could be a nice fit as finisher thats hard to kill, i do hope wizzard gives a white creature thats hard to kill, has an effcient cc, and around 4/4 or 4/5 range
Battlegrace < than Exalted, imo. For one, Stax doesn't always reach five mana that fast, even with all the accel. Magus, Armageddon and Smokestack all can see to that, and that's not even taking your opponent's actions into account.
You also can't put pressure on your opponent as soon as with Exalted. Sometimes you will have to keep a hand with no relevant t2 action besides a morph psot-t1-Chalice - it's not a very strong play but one the opponent has to answer nonetheless. You can play Exalted as an echo creature, attacking a turn earlier for two additional mana (and part of that cost can be paid for with a land that Smokestack is eating). And perhaps most importantly, I can't count the games in which I was happy for being able to play it as a simple 2/2 even lategame without having to choose between keeping Smokestack on board and casting an attacker.
As for other creatures, all kinds of those have been tried, from Calciderm to Mindcensor. They have merit but in the end, what's ideal for Stax is a creature that makes its lock pieces stronger (all the currently accepted creatures fit the bill). Calciderm doesn't. Mindcensor does in certain metagames, Exalted Angel in most. Battlegrace doesn't until after the turn it's cast because it can't be used defensively as efficiently as Exalted.
The most I'm personally prepared to pay for a creature in Stax is 2WW (per turn) unless it's so powerful that it'd necessitate a new build.
Btw, has Ethersworn Canonist been considered (as a sideboard card against combo or any other capacity)?
I have given it some thought and have come to the conclusion that you probably can't cast it T1 often enough and T2 Trinisphere will do. It can screw with other strategies than combo, though probably not as well as the options already available.
Still, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Just to state a few things out about the new planeswalker. If you feel like playing it, it might be wise to think about playing moat or any other random permanent that states you can't be attacked.
If you don't you will have to wait untill you opponent has no creatures (or 1 non-trampler)whatsoever untill you can drop it. If you rush it in play anyhow this is how the situation might look like: in the declare attacker step your opponent pays 4 to attack you with 2 creatures (piledrivers??) and rushes the rest to your planeswalker, tbh I don't like the sound of that but it could me just me.
My best geuss is that the planeswalker is good but it will be only functional if you either have a hardlock (in with case you basicly won already) or if you just woggeddoned away thier creatures which is a damn godo positio to be in anyway
REgarding the cannonist, rejected we don't play rule of law which is better (less easy to hate for example) and can be played during the same turn
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Noman Peopled
Btw, has Ethersworn Canonist been considered (as a sideboard card against combo or any other capacity)?
I have given it some thought and have come to the conclusion that you probably can't cast it T1 often enough and T2 Trinisphere will do. It can screw with other strategies than combo, though probably not as well as the options already available.
Still, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Are you trying to piss me off? I just made a whole point about reading the fucking thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
This post doesn't cover alot about the card, but read back and you'll find quite a discussion about it.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
You'll have to forgive Skeggi, I think his aunt flo may be visiting (:wink:)...
I have played Wildfire Stax, but I frankly didn't like it as much as 'Geddon Stax. Wildfire at 6 just seemed a little slow for the effect (Geddon gets all lands for 4). I also tried several of the Red/Green Stax configurations (I really wish Welder was good in Legacy or Uba Stax in general for that matter), but ultimately kept coming back to White because Armageddon is so good. I'm not at all saying it's a bad deck, I just prefer White Stax.
Battlegrace Angel will turn out to be a flop (at least that's my prediction). She will probably prove to be worse than Exalted both because a 7 mana investment over 2 turns is easier on Stax' manabase (there really is a huge difference between WW2 and WW3 - I'd go to cc6 before I rule out finishers, personally) and Exalted can gain you life blocking. Stax really wants either an indestructible creature (Konda is too slow, I've tried) or something that recurs (Chronosavant is too slow, too, though it's pretty mean with a ramped Smokestack - i.e. return to play ramp Smokestack to 2 :tongue:). Until they print something to fill that void, Mishra's Factory is about as good as it gets and I'll stick to the Factory and Magus until something better floats along (I do often stick a 1- or 2- of creature into the deck if I expect a lot of Extirpate and I also board creatures).
Ethersworn Canonist is another one that I don't like for this deck (at least not in the main). It's a cheaper Rule of Law that winds up being more fragile. I wouldn't disagree with using it in the sideboard, but I've sided COP: Green before, so some people might just think I'm a little off when it comes to sideboarding.
I understand Deathscythe's comments about the Plainswalker, but... (A) give us a little credit for playskill - I don't think anyone here is going to drop this guy on an empty board thinking they are going to eventually gain an 'indestructible' board and (B) I don't think he's automatically 'win-more'. What I really like about the card, is that he can act as both a stall AND a win (I always like 'utility' cards in Stax). You can use Elspeth to simply buy you a couple of turns while you set up a full lock (he provides his own speedbumps) or you can play him out and attack with 5/9 flying Tabernacles. There will be times when he is win-more (same can be said for Angel) and there will be times when he is vulnerable (same can be said for Angel). The nice thing (on paper anyhow) is that Elspeth has the ability to affect the board without you making any decisions (or mistakes :smile:). I'm not willing to write him off just yet.
-FB...
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
Are you trying to piss me off? I just made a whole point about reading the fucking thread.
I apologize for cluttering the thread with a question that has been already debated. It would have been immensely helpful if the thread search for "Canonist" had shown more than three posts (of which mine is the oldest), as I don't have the time to scan every thread I post on for pictures or misspellings at this time.
@ white Planeswalker:
Producing a 1/1 each turn is good with Smokestack but as a win condition, it's rather lackluster. It could also alleviate the "one creature problem" provided the opponent doesn't have evasion. In that case, it goes online even earlier than Exalted.
Chumping is all it does in such a situation, though. It's kind of awkward in attack mode.
It also assumes that you have stopped your opponent from attacking with more than one creature, else the Walker will be dead very soon.
It's almost worthless if you have Tabernacle/Magus but not Smokestack. Considering many cards and the whole deck concept already have tremendous synergy with Smokestack, I don't think it needs another way to keep it online.
The indestructibility effect comes online when you should've stabilized already. All I can see it do is Elspeth being followed by Geddon, a build-up-again phase, then indestructibility and Geddon again. Seems unreliable.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I'll try this again with the Planeswalker...
The power of the Planeswalker is that he can be used in numerous ways. He can play as a lock piece and provide Smokestack fodder (ability 1). He can play as a distraction and draw resources away from my opponent's primary goal (winning the game/match) (ability 1 and the threat of ability 3 - which the FAQ clarifies is a continuous effect from the point of activation until the end of the game including artifacts/lands/creatures/enchantments played after the activation). And Elspeth can play as a win condition by pumping existing creatures or creating one and then pumping it (ability 2 and maybe ability 1).
You're right, winning with an army of 1/1s would be a waste and other cards could be just as easily used as the win condition in that case, but being able to create a 1/1 (again and again if it gets killed/sacrificed) and then being able to attack for a few turns with a 4/4 flyer (all building loyalty counters with the inherent threat of an indestructible board) is pretty sweet for the cost of 1, 4cc card.
I really can't encourage folks playing and testing this deck to take lots of notes about the situations that arise during games. I have always found that you wind up in a suprising number of situations where you are 1 'card' off and having a way to buy you even 1 or 2 turns would be amazing. After going through a lot of my notes, if I substitute the Planeswalker into my hand in a lot of those situations - it has the potential to change the outcome.
I'm not saying that it is the 'best'. I'm not even saying its an 'auto-include'. I'm just saying that on paper - this is one of the top candidates for this deck from Shards.
-FB...
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I don't think we should dismiss elspeth,the cannonist or the angel without really testing them.
I will be running 3 exalted angel and 2 battlegrace angels in my testing. There were times where I had exalted in hand and didnt want to put them down as a 2/2 creature. Waiting for 6 mana can hurt, while battlgrace may get down sooner in those situations and may even be gaining you life as soon as she is down with magus and factory in play.
Don't dismiss anything you haven't really tested.
With 2 slots open in my deck, It will be either battlegrace, elspeth or back to old Oblivion ring.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Dispelling elspeth would be wrong, I've been tseting the walker for three straight days now and I must say that I like it. If you don't draw it, continue your plan as usual, if you happen to draw it you have the ability to switch into a lot of diffent plans. With the slight side-effect that if your opponent doesn't find an awnser soon enough things could get really messy for them. The +3/+3 flyer effect has been most usefull untill now, this is also due to the fact that I run moats
I'm going to test elspeth on the 4th on a legacy tournament, assuming I can get my hands on 2 of them by that time and drop a result over here
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I guess it will all depend on your preferences if you use exalted angel or battlegrace angel.
They have there pros and cons, but what i don't like about the battlegrace angel is that she can't be used as a blocker for cause 4/4 is kinda weak, yes she costs 1cc less but its like playing a serra angel. yes she would have a stronger offensive power by 1 point compared to exalted or serra if shes the only one that would attack.
Guys are you prepared for this equipment card
Quietus Spike
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature has deathtouch.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, that player loses half his or her life, rounded up.
Equip 3
With no direct removal this is going to be a pain with no recuring mishra to block it.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
What's the casting cost on this bad boy?
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Don't get me wrong erbs, I'm not replacing exalted angels with battlegrace angels. I am playing 2 battlegrace angels(or elspeth) IN ADDITION to exalted angels.
I don't think that quietus spike equipment will be played in legacy.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
What's the casting cost on this bad boy?
:3:
I've been testing Ajani myself. Remember, that other planeswalker we got so excited about when he spoiled. He has proven useful, but I haven't tested him enough; basically so far, against MUC, I used ability #1 to slow him down, and when he had 7 loyalty counters, it was win :smile:
I've seen others use his Lightning Helix first turn he comes into play, which is still an ok thing to do I guess, because after that he's still a threat that needs to be removed, and sometimes, they can't and they get that 1 sided Geddon thrown at them. I like Ajani, but as said before, he needs more testing.
About the Canonist:
I don't see any value over Rule of Law. In fact, I think I would prefer Rule of Law. But that card doesn't even make it to my sideboard.
About Elspeth:
I think Ajani is probably better. His second and third ability are alot better than Elspeth's. Ofcourse, Elspeth doesn't require the red splash. But still, 1 soldier per turn...when he was spoiled as 2 soldiers per turn, yeah, he rocked. But now, I think he kinda sucks. The flying ability seems win more. The last ability still needs a Geddon to be broken. Guess what: Ajani's ability is a Geddon without your land being destroyed.
I'm not saying Elspeth is bad. I just think you'd rather have Ajani filling those slots. I do find, when playing any Planeswalker, you're potentially making a Goyf bigger. Extra Goyf-carefulness is in place.
About Battlegrace Angel:
As said before probably best used in combination with Exalted Angel: if you're running 3 Exalted Angels, it's probably worth it to drop 1 for Battlegrace for instance.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I think a 12/12 trampler is still more of a problem than that equipment. Either ways, 3 to cast, 3 to equip is a lot for many decks. I don't think we'll have to deal with it that much except for maybe in a random deck or two, but this is legacy, we're used to randomness.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Wes
I think a 12/12 trampler is still more of a problem than that equipment. Either ways, 3 to cast, 3 to equip is a lot for many decks. I don't think we'll have to deal with it that much except for maybe in a random deck or two, but this is legacy, we're used to randomness.
from my expiernce with the equipment at prerealse
a 1/1 swinging twice to bring you to 4 is really tough to stand down.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Im guessing several sui decks likes slygoyf , burn decks, or slyhanna ledgewalker type decks would be definitely use Quietus Spike. Imagine that all of your opponents 1/1 critter could smack you like a phyrexian dreadnought. With no recuiring blockers the angels or magus can't even match those 1/1 critters.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
It still costs 3 to play, then 3 to equip, and it subject to most other decks instant removal. There are a lot worse things that the opponent can do turn three and four that I'd worry about more. I can't see it being that big of a problem, its not that hard to have an a factory online by turn 4, and so what if it gets deathtouched, thats why we recure. If we've let then get to the point that they can pay to drop it, pay to equip it, then attack after paying tabernacle and ghostly costs all in the same turn then we already have some problems. If they have have to do it two different turns then it shouldn't be a surprize. We run side board o rings to try and stop it, and s fields to make it so they aren't realisticly even going to equip it before turn 5. I'm not saying it wouldn't be problematic, but in legacy there are a lot worse things to see on the other side of the table. Dreadnaught can have you dead turn 4 with the right hand and so can many other decks and you are really that worried about a card that could make you loose half you life turn 4? I'm much more worried about all the artifact/enchant destruction of goyfsly decks, and I dont' remember ever having a problem with a ledgewalker deck. Any mono red burn deck shouldn't be running creatures anyway, especially not enough to support equipment. Jitte scares me more, swords of light and shadow/fire and ice scare me more.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
First off, with Chalice@1 or Trinisphere, Dreadnought is hard to get through. When he does get through, he often poses a problem indeed, if you have no Oblivion Ring or Aura of Silence.
I think underestimating Quietus Spike is dumb. Rather than saying "Bah, we don't have to come up with something against it, it won't be played much, or the threat won't be so big." I'd like to say "Okay, even if the odds are against it, if this poses as a threat in Goyf Sligh or White Weenie or Eva Green for instance, what can we do about it?".
The obvious answer to question number 2 is: a recurring Factory. While this is a very good way to deal with a threat, it limits your land drops, and that has killed me a few times in the past. So I'd like to hear another solution? Maze of Iths? Kor Havens? Oblivion Rings? They all sound like good sollutions, but what would be best? Arguably, I think Oblivion Ring, since it's such an all-round threat remover. With the current gamestate with the new Planeswalkers and other nasty stuff, I think I must conclude Oblivion Ring will have 2 or 3 spots in my main deck. I'm also reconsidering Kor Haven, since Oblivion Ring is a slower answer.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Keep in mind (I'm sure you all already know, but just as a reminder) that Elspeth is not protected by Ghostly Prison (same with Ajani Vengeant). This could be pretty relevant in several cases, but as FB argues - buying 1 or even 2 turns can prove to be crucial plays. If Elspeth STICKS, then she'll be a ridiculous amount of time bought. Note that Elspeth herself is unaffected by Magus of the Tabernacle, but the soldier tokens generated have anti-synergy with Magus of the Tabernacle.
I also agree with the idea of running O-Rings maindeck. I've run into enough situations where it has seriously saved my ass that I already MD 2. I'm not sure if Elspeth, Battlegrace Angel, or Ethersworn Canonist fit that niche well enough, but further testing will answer that.
Also, whatever happened to testing Runed Halo. Did anyone try it? Was it any good? I've tried it in Quinn and it was pretty solid.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yesmilord
Keep in mind (I'm sure you all already know, but just as a reminder) that Elspeth is not protected by Ghostly Prison (same with Ajani Vengeant). This could be pretty relevant in several cases, but as FB argues - buying 1 or even 2 turns can prove to be crucial plays. If Elspeth STICKS, then she'll be a ridiculous amount of time bought. Note that Elspeth herself is unaffected by Magus of the Tabernacle, but the soldier tokens generated have anti-synergy with Magus of the Tabernacle.
Imagine Giant Growth-ing+Jumping your Tabernacle each turn to beat face for 5 each turn, which STILL helps get towards the whole Indestructible shenanigans. Hell, except for the Lifelink and the whole "you need two cards" deal it's (kind of almost but not really) just as good as Exalted Angel...and by that I mean 10000x more ghetto-esque.
Something to think about. And I fully support O-Ring in the MD, stupid random problems get solved by it. I think I personally MD'd 3, though I think 2 is the better number.
Edit: Regarding Quietus Spike, as long as you have MD Oblivion Ring I don't see an issue, but if it becomes common, just run more O-Ring. O-Ring might be slow, but it virtually catches everything so the trade-off seems worthwhile. Or board in artifact hate. There's not too much to it. But I don't think Quietus Spike will see a whole lot of play, they'd much rather, you know, run a dude or some more burn/disruption.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kidsmokin
Imagine Giant Growth-ing+Jumping your Tabernacle each turn to beat face for 5 each turn, which STILL helps get towards the whole Indestructible shenanigans. Hell, except for the Lifelink and the whole "you need two cards" deal it's (kind of almost but not really) just as good as Exalted Angel...and by that I mean 10000x more ghetto-esque.
This scenario doesn't help the case for Elspeth at all. Stax doesn't need cards that "giant growth and jump" stuff, it needs win conditions that compliment the other functions of the deck (or make up for its lack there of). We know that's Elspeth's second ability is cool to have with another creatures, but we don't always have that luxury. In other words, we need cards that are superbly strong on their own and not shove them into scenarios where they need something else to depend on in order to be good.
One of Stax's major problems (in my experience) is its horrible dependency on draws. Your opening hand very blatantly dictates what your gameplan is, and everything after that is left up to fate. A lot of people are posting godlike scenarios or win-more scenarios that the deck just doesn't always have. I'm not saying those situations should be discounted, but chances are if you're ready to start swinging with a creature you've probably already got the board locked down - at that point it doesn't matter if you win with a Youthful Knight or an Akroma, because your opponent is in no way able to retaliate.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidsmokin
Imagine Giant Growth-ing+Jumping your Tabernacle each turn to beat face for 5 each turn, which STILL helps get towards the whole Indestructible shenanigans. Hell, except for the Lifelink and the whole "you need two cards" deal it's (kind of almost but not really) just as good as Exalted Angel...and by that I mean 10000x more ghetto-esque.
This is so wrong. Elspeth doesn't complement or replace Exalted Angel in any way. Remember you can't use Elspeth's ability when trying to block for instance. That's a big shortcoming in my perspective. This is an aggressive ability, and we have no use for it.
Let me just paint a clear picture on how I view the two new Planeswalkers:
- Elspeth's first ability is useful, it lets your Smokestack stick at two. But so can Flagstones and God's Eye to the Reikai. No real need here to get Elspeth.
- Elspeth's second ability is near useless. We're not a stompy deck. If you want to build a deck that pounds face, you shouldn't play Stax. We're all about the taxing effects, which lead to control, and finally, a hardlock. Jumping and pumping creatures is fun, but it's not a good reason to include Elspeth.
- Elspeth's third ability is only useful in combination with Armageddon. If she ever gets there. May I remind you, she starts at 4, so she needs at least 4 more turns to accomplish this. If you want to use this ability against, say, Trygon Predator, Elspeth will be long gone by then, as her face has been stomped by that same Predator. If you want to use this ability against Krosan Grip or Shattering Spree, your artifacts will be long gone before Elspeth reaches this ability. So: only good with Armageddon. And Armageddon is already good with a card called Crucible of Worlds. I guess that card rings a bell with you guys.
So, in short: there are no good reasons to run Elspeth. She doesn't fill any gaps or weaknesses Stax has. She is total, complete and utter rubbish in Stax (yes, now I'm saying Elspeth is bad :wink:).
Now, I'll move on to Ajani.
- Ajani's first ability complements the idea of Stax. It helps slow the opponent down, and does buy time. It's not the reason why we want Ajani, but it helps.
- Ajani's second ability is spot removal! Something we lack in Stax. That's nice, this guy shoots the Trygon Predator right out of the air, and wipes the smile of the smuck face of your opponent who thinks he has you by dropping a Predator. It also kills early Goyf and Bob. Not too shabby ey? Oh, there's more: on top of things, you also gain 3 life. Now that's a fun bonus to something that rocks.
- Ajani's third ability is a one sided Armageddon. Against some decks, you will see you can actually use it, as I've pointed out before, a match against MUC for instance, this is pretty useful. Once Ajani is on the table, this ability can't be countered. Bye-bye MUC. I'm sure it's useful in other match-ups as well.
I still can't really conclude Ajani is worth the trouble, but if you are going to run a Planeswalker, Ajani is the one to throw in your deck. I'm playing with two Plateaus (and two Ajani's) and I've never had a problem to produce the :r:.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
[*]Elspeth's first ability is useful, it lets your Smokestack stick at two. But so can Flagstones and God's Eye to the Reikai. No real need here to get Elspeth.
You missed that the token can chump. I remember beaing beaten by a single Goyf that my opponent can pay for on a semi-regular basis. It's not like an opponent is likely to blow his Deed/Explosives @ zero.
Also, to whoever said that Magus and Elspeth don't mix: if you're chumping, this is irrelevant. If you're attacking, you can pump Magus instead.
Apart from that, I tend to agree.
Elspeth does complement the anti-aggro lock pieces (and Smokestack) to a certain extent but I'm really not sure if that's enough given that its second ability is hardly unique and its third will often win games you'd have won anyway.
Essentially, Ajani does the same thing to a single big attacker. It's worse if your opponent has some creatures to choose from. But it is much more versatile, being able to play Stone Rain until there's something to burn and the like.
Removal is something Stax is in very short supply of, and despite not being able to kill Mongeese and Goyfs, the second ability is clearly more useful than Elspeth's in my view. (At least one guy was boarding a full number of Teegs and MMages for the Stax matchup ...) Needless to say, lifegain can be huge here. //edit: oh, and killing permanents should help with Stack.
The third ability is not something I'd be counting on bringing online but at least it doesn't need Armageddon or an opponent's late-late-late-game bomb topdeck to be effective.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Noman Peopled
You missed that the token can chump. I remember beaing beaten by a single Goyf that my opponent can pay for on a semi-regular basis. It's not like an opponent is likely to blow his Deed/Explosives @ zero.
A recurring chumpblocker for :2::w::w: doesn't seem worth the trouble :smile: Besides, after you use it to chump, he can't be used for Smokestack, which was the main reason Elspeth would be interresting.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
This is so wrong. Elspeth doesn't complement or replace Exalted Angel in any way. Remember you can't use Elspeth's ability when trying to block for instance. That's a big shortcoming in my perspective. This is an aggressive ability, and we have no use for it.
Let me just paint a clear picture on how I view the two new Planeswalkers:
- Elspeth's first ability is useful, it lets your Smokestack stick at two. But so can Flagstones and God's Eye to the Reikai. No real need here to get Elspeth.
- Elspeth's second ability is near useless. We're not a stompy deck. If you want to build a deck that pounds face, you shouldn't play Stax. We're all about the taxing effects, which lead to control, and finally, a hardlock. Jumping and pumping creatures is fun, but it's not a good reason to include Elspeth.
- Elspeth's third ability is only useful in combination with Armageddon. If she ever gets there. May I remind you, she starts at 4, so she needs at least 4 more turns to accomplish this. If you want to use this ability against, say, Trygon Predator, Elspeth will be long gone by then, as her face has been stomped by that same Predator. If you want to use this ability against Krosan Grip or Shattering Spree, your artifacts will be long gone before Elspeth reaches this ability. So: only good with Armageddon. And Armageddon is already good with a card called Crucible of Worlds. I guess that card rings a bell with you guys.
So, in short: there are
no good reasons to run Elspeth. She doesn't fill any gaps or weaknesses Stax has. She is total, complete and utter rubbish in Stax (yes,
now I'm saying Elspeth is bad :wink:).
Now, I'll move on to Ajani.
- Ajani's first ability complements the idea of Stax. It helps slow the opponent down, and does buy time. It's not the reason why we want Ajani, but it helps.
- Ajani's second ability is spot removal! Something we lack in Stax. That's nice, this guy shoots the Trygon Predator right out of the air, and wipes the smile of the smuck face of your opponent who thinks he has you by dropping a Predator. It also kills early Goyf and Bob. Not too shabby ey? Oh, there's more: on top of things, you also gain 3 life. Now that's a fun bonus to something that rocks.
- Ajani's third ability is a one sided Armageddon. Against some decks, you will see you can actually use it, as I've pointed out before, a match against MUC for instance, this is pretty useful. Once Ajani is on the table, this ability can't be countered. Bye-bye MUC. I'm sure it's useful in other match-ups as well.
I still can't really conclude Ajani is worth the trouble, but if you are going to run a Planeswalker, Ajani is the one to throw in your deck. I'm playing with two Plateaus (and two Ajani's) and I've never had a problem to produce the :r:.
I'm going to go ahead and... ummm... disagree with you until this is more fully tested and someone provides (multiple) examples of how she doesn't help or the cat helps more. Your comments are very speculative and opinion-based.
I would encourage you to try and think about it from a different perspective. In my limited testing to this point, she has proved very useful.
[*] Elspeth is not just Mobilization 2.0. She's not just providing chump blockers, she's buying you time. When you draw and play her, your opponent is going to take their focus off you. When Elspeth cranks out a Soldier, it is to block for herself, not for you. A lot of times, this will buy you 3 or more turns to find something else to hammer your opponent with. I would think we could all agree that 3 turns is worth 2WW?
[*] Elspeth is not Angel. Why do you play Angel, though? I haven't played Angel or advocated for it in nearly a year. Angel is not a lock piece, she does not provide any resource denial, she doesn't provide a 'tax' ability. She is a choice for playing a win condition. She has lifelink which will bail you out on occassion, but I encourage you to look at the number of times she bailed you out vs the number of times it did not matter (I took her out and haven't suffered in any match-up because of it - that should tell you what my testing showed). Elspeth's second ability, though, will speed you to victory once you are in position to use it. 5/5 flying Factories are even a little bit faster than 4/5 Angels. You don't play Elspeth for this ability. You use this ability because you play Elspeth.
[*] 'The Threat', though, is what buys you 3 turns and allows you to pump Factories to end the game quickly. 'The Threat' is that you will pump out 5 soldiers and win on your next turn. Think of this like a nuclear weapon, you hope you never use it, but just by having it - you gain respect. Look at the game-states it potentially creates - Deed is invalidated, EE is invalidated, Krosan Grip is invalidated, Factories, Magus, and Soldier tokens never die, Armageddon is only devastating on one side of the board... Those are all pretty horrible situations for your opponent. He knows that which is why he will try to remove Elspeth before he goes after you.
If you simply think about Elspeth as a 'trick' to ramp a Smokestack, you are missing the boat. Elspeth is an extremely efficient card for a deck that absolutely loves cards that generate virtual advantages. I'm not going to say this is exactly what Stax needed or even recommend that anyone play it in a tournament, yet. But this definitely deserves more thorough testing.
Ajani, on the other hand, hasn't proved as efficient as I had once hoped. The big cat requires a new mana base for starters. That doesn't make it unplayable, but it's not necessarily positive.
[*] The first ability is good in the situations where you need it. Other times, it doesn't really effect the board (I'm looking at you Landstill). Unfortunately, Deed doesn't require tapping for activation.
[*] The second ability draws loyalty away from Ajani while removing troublesome creatures. But I don't have trouble with aggro and this ability can't hit manlands. For the most part, the creatures would've been attacking Ajani and not me anyways. Again, useful, but not as efficient in practice as on paper.
[*] To get to the final ability, you need to tap down for 4 turns while your opponent does nothing. If you are tapping lands and he isn't attacking, he doesn't have creatures and you probably would've won anyways. If you are tapping creatures and he isn't playing lands and developing his board, he's probably mana screwed or something and you probably would've won anyways. Yes, it's a powerful ability if you get it off (it can be Stifled or Needled don't forget), but it's probably not necessary to your winning (that's not to say it won't work in some match-ups - I haven't seen a lot of MUC lately).
These are choices that are not as clear as you make them sound, at least not without actual testing.
-FB...
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Hey Fred, thanks for your time :smile:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fred Bear
Angel is not a lock piece
Actually, I think Angel is a lock piece. We've talked about the 'Angellock' before, and this concept has proven useful to me many times. It is however, completely besides the discussion of the Planeswalkers, which I think deserves our focus now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fred Bear
[*] Elspeth is not just Mobilization 2.0. She's not just providing chump blockers, she's buying you time. When you draw and play her, your opponent is going to take their focus off you. When Elspeth cranks out a Soldier, it is to block for herself, not for you. A lot of times, this will buy you 3 or more turns to find something else to hammer your opponent with. I would think we could all agree that 3 turns is worth 2WW?
The fact that Elspeth takes the focus off you counts for every Planeswalker. They all scream "Kill me fast, because when I can cast my third ability, you're probably fucked."
Elspeth and Ajani both have the ability to hold off a creature attacking them; however, one can argue at which is most effective at it. I think Ajani is, because he can also stop flyers. Your arguement is that these cards buy us time, say three turns, to find a hammer. Aren't there any better cards that buy us more time? Oblivion Ring comes to mind (buys X turns for :2::w:, seems better)...The fact that Planeswalkers draw focus and stall isn't enough. We need something else. If we compare Elspeth's second ability to Ajani's, we can easily conclude Ajani's second ability is much better and seems very useful. However, Elspeth's second ability still builds her loyalty. It seems much more likely that Elspeth's third ability will be used, but as you know, there are ways around indestructibility. I'm also saying it seems, because both Planeswalkers are more likely to die than to actually get that third ability through. The question is: what will they have accomplished before they die. I know here is the part only testing can point out; but I think Ajani will probably have shot down a few creatures, while Elspeth probably only has pooped out a couple of soldiers, which may or may not have recieved a boost. Ajani seems more viable because of all the things I've mentioned; and still I'm also doubting the usefulness of Ajani. But by all means, please test Elspeth, prove me wrong and make Stax incredibly broken, I would love for that to happen. I just think you shouldn't get your hopes up.
P.S. There is an occasional MUC in my meta. In fact, MUC won a pretty big tournament in Mol, Belgium approximately two months ago.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fred Bear
Why do you play Angel, though? I haven't played Angel or advocated for it in nearly a year. Angel is not a lock piece, she does not provide any resource denial, she doesn't provide a 'tax' ability.
Disagree here. Angel *is* synergistic with the rest of White Stax (and synergy is extremely important in a deck with no digging).
Every card in the deck other than Chalice and Crucible focuses on a single purpose: to make it impossibly expensive for your opponent to lower your life totals. Trinisphere, Ghostly Prison, and the Tabernacle trigger do it by asking your opponent to pay more mana for it. Smokestack, Wasteland and Armageddon do it by reducing the amount of mana they have available. And finally, Magus of the Tabernacle's 2/6 body, Kor Haven, Crucible/Mishra, and Exalted Angel's lifegain do it by nullifying a chunk of your opponent's attacking force (one attacker's worth for the first three, 4 power for the latter).
Back to the Alara Planeswalkers, I haven't tested Elspeth, but I've played some games with Ajani Vengeur, and he's... problematic. Namely, I run far too often into my opponent playing a new creature after Ajani hits the board, and killing him with that, while neither Ajani nor Ghostly Prison can do anything about it. If I can stop that creature from attacking Ajani it means I could already ignore it somehow (exception: Factory chump-blocking with no Crucible).
I think I'll try to fit Ajani in a sort of Stax spin-off. I'm looking at something like this:
24 lands incl. Tombs and Factories, but maybe not the full Cities
4 Mox Diamond
2 Chrome Mox?
4 Chalice
4 Crucible
4 Burning Wish?
3+1 Firespout
2+1 Boom/Bust
3+1 Armageddon
4 Humility
3 Ajani
3 Elspeth (SO wish this could be Garruk)
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Hey I'd like to pick up this deck, would anyone mind posting a current list?
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sunshine
Hey I'd like to pick up this deck, would anyone mind posting a current list?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
Press the blue thing! Here! ^^^
Oh, and Nihil, here ya go :smile:
