[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

While I won't "rip" on your list, I will mention a few things.

First, to do an IGG loop, you simply need 1x IT, 2x is excessive. I like them too, but they tend to eat Spell Snares if it's not your combo turn, which is lousy for set-up. I only run one IT and one IGG, and I still get the loop off.

Here's how an IGG loop works. You must play 4 spells before you Infernal Tutor to hit a lethal 20. Three if they are 18, etc. from their own Fetches, Thoughtseize or what-have-you.

4 set-up spells into IT-->IGG-->LED/Rit, LED/Rit, IT-->Tendrils.

Example:

Requirement:
WBB in mana pool, Chant, Rit, LED, IT in hand.

Duress-->Chant-->Dark Rit-->LED-->IT-->IGG-->LED/Rit, LED/Rit, IT-->Tendrils.

I know the second IT is there for utility, not just the kill, but there are better cards in my opinion. I think a second IGG in the sideboard would be a solid choice. I'm just saying why a lot of us only run 1x, it won't make your build bad if you run 2x.

I'd drop a Tundra in favor of a Plains. 3 basics that each produce 1 of your primary colors is good. Getting ruined by wastelands and Stifles (UGr Thrash) is no good.

Oh, the Grapeshot thing. Yes, it works well, but in the sideboard. It's not good maindecked unless you are swimming in a fish-ruled metagame--the only deck to play it maindeck as far as I know. With that said, Mage/Teeg (I guess people run Teeg MD, but that's why you have wipe away) can shut you down. Grapeshot + Helm of Awakening = Ignoring their Mages and their Teeg, winning after you kill the mages and Teeg just for fun. Also, with Grapeshot and Helm, you can completely drop the Volcanic as it's completely unneccessary when you put it in a D-Day stack, which is the only way you can really go off with it unless you figure out a way to put it in an IGG loop twice...That sounds difficult, and I refuse to work on it tonight.

We don't run EtW for the exact reason you stated in your tourney report (congrats, btw). EE/Deed. Echoing Truth/Decay. Pyroclasm. Point: It's not exactly optimal. Plus, it's VERY bad with D-Day. And, it's not win-NOW.

I'd put Grapeshot in the board, drop EtW completely, and use the 2x Slots to up the 'Seize/Chant counts to 4, then I'd drop the 'Seizes and instead toss in Duresses, as creatures are irrelevant for the most-part, unless you really do get scared of Mage/Teeg. I guess you could keep them, but I hate the life-loss. My suggestion is Duress, but you know your meta, and if it calls for it, so be it.

I really recommend dropping a C. Rit for your 4th Top.

That's all I have, except for the P-Blasts in your board. Oh, looking again, Brain Freeze is pointless (I was utterly convinced of this the other day). Grapeshot fulfills all purposes in the department of a 2cc win-con, and it's win-now, and with all the painter lists, you don't have to worry about Gaea's Blessing or Wheel of Sun and Moon. NOW I'm done.

Again, congrats.

Pce,

--DC

Yeah.. I kind of built it up a couple minutes before the tournament, and I see your points.

I will probably add the additional stuff for the shot and ETW.... Although, with one wincon in the MD at that point, I would get nervous.

I wasn't dissatisfied at all with the second IT, although I can see how it would be terrible to see both early on, even though it is a rare occurrence.


The sideboard was a little last second, but I want my reports to be as honest as possible, so I gave you guys the cards I ran, not the ones I wished I had.


The thoughtseize was to stop teeg, as he is annoying, hardly impossible to deal with, but the two life has yet to a=be an issue for me.


Thanks for the input though, we seem to be looking at it in a very similar way (I knew my list was slightly suboptimal, but 2o mins b4 a tourney, I was pretty close).



What's everyone's current boards for this deck?


Mine is a load of crap, but the meta was trash, and didn't require my attention really.


If I am expecting a huge load of threshold, how many rebs would you guys recommend in the board?

No one that I know of even runs REBs/Blasts. Just 'Pate for Force of Will that you bait out and K. Grips for CB.

My sideboard:

3x Meddling Mage
2x Serenity
1x K. Grip
1x IGG
1x Grapeshot
1x Helm
1x Rebuild
1x Reverent Silence (Meta-slot, I see Pyro Pillar quite a bit...O.o. I never side it in without Shot/Helm due to the 6 life you give them-this gives me another way to win if I mini-tendrils against burn to gain some life.)
1x E. Truth
1x Rushing River
1x Wipe Away (I run K. Grip MD)
1x Extirpate

Before Reverent Silence, I had Slaughter Pact in there also, which is what I would recommend for you unless you like Reverent Silence for CB.

There you go,

Pce,

--DC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jaiminho

IGG sucks against control, because most control decks are blue. It's the number one card coming out of the deck when sideboarding against those. I don't want to need N + 1 protection in hand where N is the number of counters my opponent has. It's simply not good. It's never been.




I run a total of 0 Pates in my 75. They are a conditional Duress, which simply doesn't seem worth the shot. Duress + Pate on CB is another story, narrow enough (4 Duress + 1 Pate does not equal combo) for me to avoid thinking about it.

Duress on turn 1 is golden against Ichorid. It's simply too good, unless they got lots of brokeness that we can't get rid of -- note: a single Breakthrough without a way to bin dredges isn't broken; neither is a lone LED. Ichorid can never beat us on the Ichorid beats plan by itself (as in no tokens), since it's too slow. Obviously, this probably doesn't happen, but in the few matches I had against Ichorid, I only needed to Chant to get them to be as slow as me or even slower.


Also, check your PMs, dude.

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I'm not arguing IGG and ETW are sub-optimal, but IGG and ETW are necessary, because there are just some piles that can't get there with out IGG in them (DDAY go) and having a second kill condition is better than tutoring for an answer to Meddling Mage.

@DC

I had strong results with 12 cantrips, and for the moment I'm cutting Sensei' Divining Top for Serum Visions since I'm never getting the Sensei's Divining Top, Lion's Eye Diamond, Inferal Tutor -> Doomsday (pile) activate Top to draw into Infernal Contract scenarios.

I know it's "sacreligious," but there's something about the 12 cantrips, not having to activate/redraw Top and building Threshold that just seems to be working for me.

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Doomsday
1 Infernal Contract
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
4 Orim's Chant
1 Wipe Away
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island

In goldfishing, I either just M.Tutor for Infernal Contract and cast Infernal Contract on the second turn or cantrip, pass. cantrip, cantrip, pass. and then go off on the next turn. It's hard to explain, but I think upping the number of cantrips has some merit whether or not you agree/disagree with cutting Top or running that much acceleration (Cabal ritual is underrated tho', I can't get enough Cabal Rituals for M.Tutor -> Draw4 or DDAY)

I'm not saying it's the way to go, I'm just throwing it out there. It actually helped me get to an AdN deck that's relatively consistent, so maybe it'll give you some ideas.

I saw your list in the AdN thread, and I have to tell you that CB/Chalice WRECKS it.

You do whatever you want, but I don't/won't call it FT. I'd call it cantripsgeteatenbydisruption-killspelleatsmylife.dec.

In other news, I think I'm going into renal failure due to lack of sleep. I can't sleep for the life of me. I think I'm dying. Is that possible? Shit...

Pce,

--DC

EDIT::: If you play Doomsday-Go, you are doing something wrong. You should never do that.

@BreathWeapon's list: mmmkay, you've cut protection for additional cantrips. I don't like that.

Quote:

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EDIT::: If you play Doomsday-Go, you are doing something wrong. You should never do that.

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Or you're playing against Counterbalance. You never want to do that, but sometimes you have to.

The reason you're not finding Infernal Tutor for Doomsday to be good is because Infernal Tutor is a bad card that doesn't have a place in FT except very specific situations as an out to discard. When I originally started playing Doomsday in FT it was with Infernal Tutor because I was using it in this capacity. The thing I noticed (that you've even noticed and wrote about) is that Doomsday is far better if you just have it in your hand. If it's in your hand, the cheapest piles to win with (and the ones that make more storm and allow alternate win conditions) involve Sensei's Divining Top. This is entirely because Top lets you pay mana for your combo outside of your combo turn. The primary reason why I'm able to turn 3 so often is because half of my combo is already on the table. If you aren't using Sensei's Tops piles very often, then you really need to (re)read the Doomsday section of my (partially finished) primer over on mtgsal.

As far as upping the cantrip count with Sensei's Tops still in the deck, I've tried this in the past to inconclusive results. Predict is really good when you're running Brainstorm/Ponder/Top. Serum Visions is passable. Night's Whisper is even okay. I've had fairly good results with Standstill in certain lists. I don't currently feel that I would ever play less than 9 protection spells (currently 4 Chant, 4 Duress, 1 KGrip) and I don't know if I could justify playing less with so many Counterbalance/Force decks and so many Chalice decks in any given room. The cantrips bring you closer and closer to the guaranteed turn 3 victory, but upping acceleration does the same thing while being as good or better against discard and chalices.

I second the Mystical Tutor -> Infernal Contract play. I do this a lot when I have the opportunity. Mystical Tutor is the primary reason I play a 1/1 split on Contract/Meditate. If I played LDV (such as some of my Force/Standstill/Mage lists) then I always go to 2 Meditate. Two draw4s have been important to give me outs to random Tormod's Crypts from control (which are annoyingly still played against me).

Doomsday go is extremely situational. In the last six months, I've done it approximately 6 times in games. This is probably rarer than Soldarity's Brain Freeze myself to hit Flash of Insight + Think Twice play.

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Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

I saw your list in the AdN thread, and I have to tell you that CB/Chalice WRECKS it.

You do whatever you want, but I don't/won't call it FT. I'd call it cantripsgeteatenbydisruption-killspelleatsmylife.dec.

In other news, I think I'm going into renal failure due to lack of sleep. I can't sleep for the life of me. I think I'm dying. Is that possible? Shit...

Pce,

--DC

EDIT::: If you play Doomsday-Go, you are doing something wrong. You should never do that.

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Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void beat all combo decks, FT can't deal with Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void either, at least 8 discard spells puts Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void to a coin flip and discard Counterbalance before it lands. You can't have a "monsters under the bed" mentality with combo

@Brehn

I cut disruption for acceleration, other than not being able to discard Countebalance, I haven't found the extra disruption to be all that useful. It's not so much a deck as it is a goldfishing exercise, something about that cantrip package just clicks.

@Emidln

Edit @ Emidlin

I do use Sensei's Divining Top in Doomsday piles, but I wasn't using Sensei's Divining Top in the Infernal Tutor for Doomsday chains because casting Infernal Tutor for Doomsday is just a joke, I don't seem to have a problem with using just Brainstorm, Ponder and Serum Visions because it standardizes the costs and being able to draw a litter further and reach threshold a little faster is coming into play.

At least we agree on M.Tutor->Draw4, that has been hands down the strongest play I've been able to make, tho' I kind of like running 2xInfernal Contract instead of an Infernal Contract and Meditate split because I get the Infernal Tutor option.

I'm not certain I'm prepared to cut Infernal Tutor, it could just be a wet blanket for me, but LED feels so underwheming with out it, and I just feel like I'm opening up to Meddling Mage.

Wow, I get into DDAY go a lot, I must be doing something wrong.

It's not that DDay->Go isn't there for me. I just don't do it because I don't feel comfortable whipping out my ballsack and landing it on the table with a guy who carries a bag full of hammers, knives, and other bad shit sitting across from me with a maniacal grin on his face. The number of things that can go wrong with Doomsday -> Go is staggering so it takes a truly desperate situation or an opponent who actually has 0 outs for me to do that.

Can you link the DDAY primer, I'm having a difficult time seeing where Top is saving mana over U cantrips. Are you piling Draw4, D.Ritual, LED, IGG, Tendrils and then cantripping into Draw 4 -> Top, D.Ritual, LED, IGG and then recasting Top, casting IGG and recurring DDAY, D.Ritual and LED and then cycling the loop for net mana or net storm or just recurring 3 accelerants?

I could see cutting Petals but 4 C.Rituals just feels right, it facilitates M.Tutor->Draw4 and M.Tutor->Draw4 facilitates Threshold, plus casting DDAY becomes a lot easier when M.Tutor doesn't need to find D.Ritual.

Emidln, would you link us to the (non finished) primer? Some of us (me) are too stupid to find it.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=127049

I think this is it. It's outdated by like 1 month :P (not that it matters, since FT is highly customizable and is listed differently to different people's metagame and playing style).

Got it,

Topping into Draw4, Petal, D.Ritual, D.Ritual and Tendrils recoups the cost of recasting Top on the back end for a net gain of 1.

Thanks for the link.

If you had to cut one or the other, would it be a duress or a ponder?

For those that run only 1 win condition main deck, do you guys ever find yourself with the tendrils removed from the game by some unlucky chance? Or does this rarely happen and therefore does not warrant a second win condition main deck?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kensai

For those that run only 1 win condition main deck, do you guys ever find yourself with the tendrils removed from the game by some unlucky chance? Or does this rarely happen and therefore does not warrant a second win condition main deck?

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The main problem with win conditions is that a good 2nd win condition will take 2 slots, as it needs Helm to be effective. If you are not playing a list with full sets acceleration cards and a full set of Infernal Tutors, Empty the Warrens sucks so much. If you want more resistance to graveyard removal effects, you might want to run a 2nd Tendrils, since only Extirpate will knock it off, or Death Wish. If you use Wish, get ready to need lots of life to kill someone.

Against Ichorid, would you rather have 'Pate or a 4th Duress md'ed? I played Ichorid vs. Jaiminho's DDFT the other day, and Duress seemed to win it for him. That and Chant. While I realize 'Pate is better any time other than turn 1, would it be better to up your chances of hitting a turn 1 duress, or leave 'Pate in and tutor for it?

LMK your guys' thoughts on this.

Pce,

--DC

Congratulations to thefreakaccident. In Italy we name apartment's tournament, the tournaments with less than 20 players. :smile:

I know that this list is out of the standard lists of FT, but I post it anyway.
This is a list of a my friend did 6-2 to a tournament at Annency in France, losing to dreadstill and to white stax for a mulligan to 5 in g2. Unfortunately with 200+ players, the prerequisite for the top8 was 7-1-1.

// Lands
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [MI] Swamp
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [A] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [MI] Island
1 [A] Plains

// Creatures
2 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
3 [LRW] Ponder
2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [PS] Rushing River
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [6E] Serenity
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 2 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 1 [5E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

There is always another nice DD stack for cusomized needs:

SDT in play, BS in hand UU floating. (no other cards in hand)

i DD'ed for:

[top]
LED
Meditate
DRit
DRit
Tendrils
[bottom]

Top into LED, play LED, BS with U floating in response break LED for BBB
Put back DRit and SDT, Meditate with B floating into SDT, DRit, Drit, Tendrils
Cast them all for 7 Storm + Tendrils. (+DD and other spells played before).

I love these shenanigans :tongue:

EDIT:
A slight variation:
2 SDT in play, 1 U/B mana floating

DD for:

[top]
LED
Meditate
DRit
LED
Tendrils
[bottom]

Top into LED and cast it, use 1 to put Meditate on the top with the other Top, Top into Meditate breaking LED in response for either U or B depening what you have floating. Make sure that you come out with B. Draw SDT, SDT, DRit, LED. Cast them all and Top into Tendrils, breaking LED in response. 6 storm + Tendrils. (+DD and other spells played before).

Cool stack. All you need before that is Chant/Duress, D Rit, Doomsday.

Nice.

Pce,

--DC

What turn do you usually win with this deck? I'm just wondering, to know if I'm not playing it too slow.

On average, I usually take all the time I need against agro, usually going off at around turn 4-5...

Against control/other combo decks, I will try to go off by turn 3 at the latest.. usually turn two before they can get counterspell mana...

Agro-control is difficult, because it depends on how they have opened up... if they go for counterbalance turn two, then you have to slow down and find disruption/hate... if they do not, then you can just go and get chant, and win the game (at least this is my experience).


The deck can go fast, but it doesn't need to, as, unlike other combo decks, you actually get stronger as the game progresses (sculpting a perfect hand, hitting your disruption/tutors... etc.).


This deck molds the way it plays to fit the situation at hand, and therefor plays accordingly.

If you are strictly goldfishing, then it is around turn 3 on average (at least for me and my version...).

Okay, that means I will have to practice on going some faster for sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeroenC

What turn do you usually win with this deck? I'm just wondering, to know if I'm not playing it too slow.

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On the 5 rituals, 4 Doomsday, 1 IT, 1 IGG, version, I get an average golfishing turn of about 3,5. It's about half on 3 and half on 4, since the turn 2 and 5+ kills are pretty rare.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jaiminho

On the 5 rituals, 4 Doomsday, 1 IT, 1 IGG, version, I get an average golfishing turn of about 3,5. It's about half on 3 and half on 4, since the turn 2 and 5+ kills are pretty rare.

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Ive found pretty much the exact same thing. But on turn 4 you have disruption a VAST majority of the time.

I'm playing FT for about one month now, and I really have to admit that it's one of the thoughest deck that i've played in the last years. Congrats to emidln at this point :cool:

Though I have some questions regarding sideboarding ... first, my SB:

3x Serenity
3x Krosan Grip
2x Extirpate
1x Rushing River
1x Echoing Truth
1x Rebuild
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Pyroclasm
1x Grapeshot
1x Helm of Awakening

To be honest, i mostly netdecked it cause I had no clue how a good board would look like, simply to get an idea how it could look (try-and-fail preocess :wink: )

Yesterday I played some games against Faerie Stompy, and I found the MU really though preboard. Mainly Chalice put a loot of presure on me cause I only play Wipe Away MD as a solution, and FoW + clock didn't made it much better^^ I only won 1 game preboard cause he had no 1st turn Chalice, so i could leave U open to tutor Wipe Away in case he drew one. Preboard it changed, and I only lost one game out of seven I think. Although he brought 3sphere in, it wasn't that hard to handle.
But the question I wanted to ask some more experienced players: What are you boarding out in this MU? I boarded something like +3 Serenity, +3 Grip +1 Rebuild / -1 IGG (cause he probably brings Crypt), -1 IT, -1 Wipe Away, -4 Duress ... I was quite unsure if it's right to cut Duress, but I had no other stuff - how would you have boarded?

Other questions that came to my mind:

1- in which MU's are you boarding the Helm/Grapeshot combo?
2- is the Rushing River any good? I thought about CB, but Grip solves the Problem more easily - also, Teeg or Meddling Mage are easily answered by Slaughter Pact and Pyroclasm.
3- do you board the Extirpates only against Loom and Ichorid, or are there other MU's where it's good?
4- what are you boarding out most of the time? Do you cut 4-off's like Ponder (wouldn't feel like a good idea) or are you boarding out 1-off's like IGG, IT, Cabal Rit., Wipe Away etc? Against slow decks i usually board out the IT, cause I have enough time to set up a Doomsday-kill, while against fast decks (Combo, Goyfsligh) I think it would be a good idea to leave it in.
5- in case you know your opponent is boarding Pithing Needle, would you consider boarding SDT out? Or are you fighting the Needle with Grip, Serenity etc?
6- are you boarding Grip/Serenity against Survival? I really have no clue, cause I think I would leave the MD without a change...
7- I played against a MonoB Suicide and a Pox build with tons of discard - are there any SB Cards against those decks? Although it's a comperaltive rare MU I found it quite hard fighting all the discard (I think i only won 2 or 3 games out of 10)

I want to appreciate everyone who could answer some of my questions and admit bad grammar :rolleyes:

thx
surly

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1- in which MU's are you boarding the Helm/Grapeshot combo?

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a) Against every UWx deck if I fear Meddling Mages coming in.
b) Against every GWx deck if I fear Gaddock Teegs coming in.
c) Against white-based control/aggrocontrol if I fear Runed Halos coming in.
d) Against decks with bigger amounts of life gain. Those are usually rogue decks but you can never know. I've played against Berserk Stompy and he brought in Healing Leaves as anti-Tendrils tech O_o. There are some decks packing Zuran Orb, Kitchen Finks + Cabal Therapy, Renewed Faith, ...
e) Against black-based decks with discard + Extirpate.

Quote:

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2- is the Rushing River any good? I thought about CB, but Grip solves the Problem more easily - also, Teeg or Meddling Mage are easily answered by Slaughter Pact and Pyroclasm.

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Rushing River is good, though its main use is neither CB nor Teeg nor Mage. Bouncing Chalice+Chalice, Chalice+Trinisphere, Chalice+Blood Moon etc is it. Huge against Chalice Aggro / Stax-ish decks.

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3- do you board the Extirpates only against Loom and Ichorid, or are there other MU's where it's good?

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They're pretty good against blue decks with countermagic. Rule of thumb: the less aggressive the opposing deck, the more effective Extirpate. So it's insane (!) against UWb Landstill and ITF, pretty good against CB Threshold and Dreadstill and good/mediocre against Tempo Thresh or Merfolk. Also, combo mirrors: TES, Solidarity, FT, Cephalid Breakfast.

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4- what are you boarding out most of the time? Do you cut 4-off's like Ponder (wouldn't feel like a good idea) or are you boarding out 1-off's like IGG, IT, Cabal Rit., Wipe Away etc? Against slow decks i usually board out the IT, cause I have enough time to set up a Doomsday-kill, while against fast decks (Combo, Goyfsligh) I think it would be a good idea to leave it in.

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I've written some of my boarding plans some pages ago. Basically I'm boarding out following cards with my list:

1 Cabal Ritual (blue decks)
1 Lotus Petal (non-race matchups)
1 Krosan Grip (if not needed)
1 Echoing Truth (if not needed or if there are better solutions in my board [think of Grip vs. Counterbalance])
2 Street Wraith (to free slots, this is an easy cut)
1 Ponder (if I need more space for SB cards)
1 Mystical Tutor (see Ponder)
4 Orim's Chant (depending on the opp's deck)

Other notes:
- If you're playing Lim-Dul's Vault, you want to board it out against tempo-based blue decks. Those usually pack Spell Snare and Daze.
- If you're playing Infernal Tutor main, you want to board it out against decks with countermagic most of the time.
- Always leave one Ill-Gotten Gains and one draw-4 in. You need them for your stacks.

Quote:

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5- in case you know your opponent is boarding Pithing Needle, would you consider boarding SDT out? Or are you fighting the Needle with Grip, Serenity etc?

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No and no. I never board out Tops and if my opponent is playing Needle, I usually don't even bother looking for a solution. If you're playing Ancient Grudge in your board, you might consider boarding them in, but boarding in 2-3 cards just to fight 2-3 minor hate cards that just cut down some setup and some routes to victory doesn't seem appealing to me.

Quote:

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6- are you boarding Grip/Serenity against Survival? I really have no clue, cause I think I would leave the MD without a change...

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I don't think there's a deck called "Survival". My boarding plans for different Survival lists are differing quite a lot.
(I'd never board in Serenity just because of Survival, though.)

Quote:

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7- I played against a MonoB Suicide and a Pox build with tons of discard - are there any SB Cards against those decks? Although it's a comperaltive rare MU I found it quite hard fighting all the discard (I think i only won 2 or 3 games out of 10)

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Dark Confidant is pretty good against Suicide. Against Pox, not so much because they have removal. Make sure you're playing 2 Ill-Gotten Gains postboard. And Infernal Contract. And you probably should board in Grapeshot/Helm.

Thanks for answering!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brehn

Rushing River is good, though its main use is neither CB nor Teeg nor Mage. Bouncing Chalice+Chalice, Chalice+Trinisphere, Chalice+Blood Moon etc is it. Huge against Chalice Aggro / Stax-ish decks.

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Except for Moon everything you listed could also be handled by Rebuild (+ I once cycled it into Doomsday :rolleyes: ) - if there are no other purposes I think I cut it (nobody in my area is playing Dragon Stompy)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brehn

I don't think there's a deck called "Survival". My boarding plans for different Survival lists are differing quite a lot.
(I'd never board in Serenity just because of Survival, though.)

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Well, actually I only meant Survival of the Fittest as a lone card, but I think you're right, without knowing the rest of the deck the question is irrelevant... :wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brehn

Dark Confidant is pretty good against Suicide. Against Pox, not so much because they have removal. Make sure you're playing 2 Ill-Gotten Gains postboard. And Infernal Contract. And you probably should board in Grapeshot/Helm.

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I also thought about adding Bobs for discard and maybe against Thresh and LS to win the war of attrition. Anyway I doubt it would be worth it, cause Thresh and LS are also doable without Bob...

One more question that came to my mind - is the Pyroclasm in the Board worth the slot? Cause it also forces you to run at least one Volcanic Island MD witch worsens your Wasteland MU's imho. The only uses I found for Clasm were:
- Goblins as a tutor target (though I doubt it's needed cause you should race them anyway)
- Magus of the Moon (can also be killed with Slaughter Pact)
- multiple Meddling Mages or Mage+Teeg (rare?)

Maybe I've forgotten some points, but i think I'll cut the Clasm for the 2nd IGG and the Volcanic Island for a Basic Plains.

I've been having problems with Dragon Stompy. Their most current builds get away from as much equipment in favor of MORE hate. The version I play with has MD'ed:

4x Magii
4x Moon
4x Chalice
2x Jitte

The Jitte may not seem like it does anything, but mixed with a Moon effect, a chalice and a Jitte, it becomes immenent to remove it as the life-gaining effects can really screw up your winning through all the hate. Honestly, if they drop a moon effect turn 1 on the play, it really limits what you are able to do for quite a while. If they drop a Chalice turn 2, it's even harder, and an active Jitte seals the deal, as they can save the counters for their final swing OR use them to get out of Tendrils range. This is doable because by the time you are able to work around the hate, you are around 10-12 life, and that puts you in Slogger range after D-Day AND each counter on Jitte = an added storm count for Tendrils.

Game two it gets even MORE difficult with:
4x Trinisphere
1x Jitte

And the guy I play against even has 2x Winter Orb in his side. This hate is extreme, and it's really SCREWING. ME. OVER. I'm thinking about a better reset button in, but I can't think of anything past what, deed? He runs NEEDLES SBED. SHIT. Please, if anyone knows the best way to go about beating this kind of nasty hate, lmk.

I'm really looking for the best way to play against Stompy builds as it seems to be hit or miss for me. I would really have to go back to the IGG/IT version of this for the turn 2 kill 80% of the time to deal with this effectively. So far, I've been able to do it a couple times with the Doomsday build, but only through IGG, and I have to have an opening hand of something like:

2x Mana accel, 1 of which has to be D. Rit
1x IT
4x ???

While that seems easy, it's not, as I run only 1x IT. I have a second one in the SB, but my mana accel isn't as high as it is in the IGG builds, so that takes a bit more work also. Mix that with not being able to fetch and hence no filtering, it is damn near impossible to get what I need in a situation where they can drop a turn-2 Slogger. Aaagh. Death by Stompy is a bit embarrassing...

Pce,

--DC

This exact reason is why I run 3x Serenity SB. If you have the presence of mind to fetch a plains quickly, it's a life saver. (It's also the reason the deck can effectively drop to 3 colors, although I still play grip.)

The IGG version wasn't much better against DS. The only games I won in tournaments were on the back of first turn ETW for 12+. Then again, that guy SMASHED both me and Bryant out of contention in about 20 minutes.

A third Serenity is all I can do? Meh, that sux. I think I'm going 3x Serenity, 1x Rebuild. Shit. I got pounded AGAIN last night. And, I'm going up to 18 lands. 5 basix. Can't decide on what to do:

8x Blue Fetches
1x Mire (should make up for the additional plains...)
1x Sea
1x Tundra
1x Scrub
1x Trop
2x Island
2x Plains (I know, but what else am I supposed to do?)
1x Swamp

Otherwise I'm looking at 2x Swamp and possibly a Heath in place of the Mire, but that doesn't do as much for me IMHO. I'm getting to 18 land by dropping the singleton Extirpate. I'm confident I can beat Ichorid without it via my experience with it. I can also always drop a Duress for it again if I NEED to.

LMK what you think. I also don't HAVE to have the 9th fetch, just testing it. So far it's been okay.

rant

Personally I wish they would just print Enemy Fetches. I could use a W/B one...Jeez. I don't see wtf the big deal is anyway...Of course, I could just be an idiot. I'm pretty sure this is the only land-cycle printed that's not fully completed. I could be wrong, but I sure feel like I'm right. In my mind the best mana base would use 2/4/3 of WB, UB, UW fetches, respectively.

/rant

18 lands lets you hit just as many lands as Thresh, but none being wastes, which is nice, and 5 basics, while it limits their useability, makes it much less waste/moon affected. Just as many cantrips. I'd like to hear opinions on this move, Emidln, Yawg07, and other extremely honed on the lists abilities most of all. No offense.

Pce,

--DC

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

Personally I wish they would just print Enemy Fetches. I could use a W/B one...Jeez. I don't see wtf the big deal is anyway...Of course, I could just be an idiot. I'm pretty sure this is the only land-cycle printed that's not fully completed. I could be wrong, but I sure feel like I'm right. In my mind the best mana base would use 2/4/3 of WB, UB, UW fetches, respectively.

---

Sorry for the offtopic, but I had to puntualize this:
The CIPT dual lands from invasion is not fully completed also...:tongue:

I'm currently playing the build I posted for the tournament and in the PLD thread -red duals, +1 Plains, +1 Island with -2 Ancient Grudge, -1 Krosan Grip, -1 Pyroclasm, -1 Rushing River +3 Serenity, +1 Ill-Gotten Gains, +1 Infernal Tutor in my sideboard. I've already explained the rationale for this in earlier posts (it has to do with the discard matchup). The red was to support Ancient Grudge + Clasm (a meta call with a lot of pithing needles floating around).

The full build looks like this:

// emidln's list circa 9-26-08
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Duress
4 Orim's Chant
1 Krosan Grip
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Meditate
1 Cruel Bargain
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Doomsday
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

// sb
3 Serenity
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
2 Extirpate
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Grapeshot
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Tutor

Now, as far as sideboarding, if you are playing against Chalice aggro, Duress is more valuable than Chant, but I believe some number of Chants might be necessary to beat Force of Will from Faerie Stompy. This is a critical application of my theory that Duress and Chant are not equivlent protection. The primary function of Duress is to take permanent-based hate. That it can take Force of Will or Stifle is completely incidental, and perhaps more than against Counterbalance Threshold, we see it in the Faerie Stompy matchup. Taking Chalices, Needles, and Trinispheres are worlds more important than dealing with Force of Will or Trickbind.

As far as the way I value things, I rarely, if ever, will board out my singleton Lotus Petal. Lotus Petal is especially good if you happen to see it against Chalice decks because it provides another white source for Serenity, but it allows you to combo with fewer cards. This is extremely important because Chalice decks tend to do a number on our manabase so having that extra land necessary to complete a graveyard-independent Doomsday pile may be impossible.

Ponder is often worthless against Chalice decks. Especially if you are running a list similar to mine, you are very heavy at the 1cc slot. I take these out for spells (hopefully disruption, but I sometimes don't even care about that) that don't cost 1. Dead cards in hand are bad, and our board is filled with things that are at least going to be somewhat useful if we resolve them (more useful than Ponder sitting in hand).

Krosan Grip is terrible against Dragon Stompy. You'll see me take this card out in a heartbeat because I'm going to play the entire game under the assumption that their top card is a Blood Moon effect and they have the means to cast it. Unless you're running Windswept Heath with basic Forest (and I don't recommend this btw, I tried it and finding a basic Island is way more important), you will be extremely disappointed with cards that are green.

As far as cards that I'll never consider boarding out with my current list:

17 Lands
4 Sensei's Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

In my opinion, everything else is fair game. In extreme situations when I attempt to play the control role (think vs Mono White Control), I've boarded out my Dark Rituals and most of my LEDs. I board out Mystical Tutor on occasion when I know I will be fighting a war of attrition and just want cards that kill things (as opposed to killing something specific).

It really depends on the Loam deck if I bring in Extirpate or not. Against Aggro Loam, the answer is generally no. I'll tend to cut Chants, then Ponders (KGrip first if I believe they might have Blood Moon), and move on down the line. Extirpate, to me, is an anti-combo and anti-control card. The only time it will come in vs random stuff is when I have actual dead cards. Extirpate is best against Landstill, Ichorid, and Tempo Thresh. (Tempo Thresh has no recourse to Extirpate on Force of Will + Orim's Chant, and Landstill has very limited options.)

Duress rarely leaves my maindeck. This is because opponents will almost always have permanent-based hate that you don't want to see or a ton of really awkward spells (like Hymn to Tourach) that Chant won't affect at all.

I bring in Grapeshot + Helm against aggro (they tend to pack awkward cards like Extirpate, Gaddock Teeg, and other nonsense) and usually Infernal Tutor + IGG against aggro with discard (despite the fact that they might have graveyard hate (unless I know specifically what the hate is)). I often bring in Echoing Truth and Rushing River for KGrip + something against any non-blue deck because I simply assume they will have Pithing Needle, Chalice of the Void, Gaddock Teeg, Blood Moon, or something else that I don't really need to see on the table.

I'm also very quick to go into a very conservative role against decks with a combo finish. I've found that, unless they pack Tarmogoyf, they have an extremely difficult time with my assortment of bounce, removal, extirpates, and tutor effects. I don't care if I win fast, I just care that when I combo, I can win the game. (Helm + Grapeshot is amazing for this because you can build piles that both win the game now, and win the game if you're forced to pass the turn because of Extirpate or Chant.)

If you're going to pack additional hate for Dragon Stompy, it should likely be an additional Island and more Rushing Rivers + Ancient Grudges in the sb. River is great because it can bounce creatures or Blood moon. Grudge tends to kill Chalice, Trinisphere, or equipment (which are generally what keep me from winning, not the Blood Moons). If they are packing stuff like W. Orb + Pithing Needle, Grudge is going to be really good (as they are either boarding out Blood Moon, Equipment (which is actually wrong, they lose the game the longer it takes, they need to finish it quickly so we don't accidentally go land #3, serenity or land #3 + eot rushing river.

Edit: Update on the mtgsal tourney

I'm currently 5-0 playing the 75-card Doomsday list I said I would be playing when I posted on at least this site, mtgsal, and storm boards. I should be 4-0-1, but my 5th round opponent who was running UB Dreadstill didn't want to ID into top8. I'm fairly sure I coast into top8 in either 1st or 2nd since I'm playing Eldariel (the other X-0) next round and we can probably draw for the two best records. Report will be forthcoming from rounds 4 and 5 (one of my opponents whom I frequently talk to requested I not reveal information about his list until the list is generally known at the beginning of top8).

I'm playing the same MD like your list posted above (except -1x Krosan Grip, -1x Doomsday, +1x Wipe Away, +1x IT) and I found the versatility of MD Wipe Away over Grip quite handy. Although I also aim the Wipe on targets the Grip could also handle most of the time, I'm still scared of those random maindecked Teegs or Meddling Mages - hell, even a True Believer could screw you up ^^

Anyway, whats the point in playing SB Wipe Away? In which case do you prefer a Wipe over a Rushing River/Grip/Echoing Truth?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surly

I'm playing the same MD like your list posted above (except -1x Krosan Grip, -1x Doomsday, +1x Wipe Away, +1x IT) and I found the versatility of MD Wipe Away over Grip quite handy. Although I also aim the Wipe on targets the Grip could also handle most of the time, I'm still scared of those random maindecked Teegs or Meddling Mages - hell, even a True Believer could screw you up ^^

Anyway, whats the point in playing SB Wipe Away? In which case do you prefer a Wipe over a Rushing River/Grip/Echoing Truth?

---

Krosan Grip is better against anything that isn't Meddling Mage or Gaddock Teeg. People still play Gaddock Teeg because those cards are good against other combo decks. I play Wipe Away to make them bad against FT. I see far more CB Thresh than I see maindeck True Believer, MM, or Teeg.

Against UWb Landstill, does anyone also side in Rushing Rivers to take care of Runed Halos? Halo can't name a setup spell, so it can only do so much to try to block your finishers. It's not as good as it seems, but it's a barrier, which can be summed up with counters, Pates, Mages and a minor clock (2 to 4 dmg/turn) to screw you up.

My current SB plans on UWb are: -1 Cabal, -1 IGG, -1 IT, -1 Grip, -1 Ponder; +2 River, +1 Helm, +1 Grapeshot, +1 Pact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

A third Serenity is all I can do? Meh, that sux. I think I'm going 3x Serenity, 1x Rebuild. Shit. I got pounded AGAIN last night. And, I'm going up to 18 lands. 5 basix. Can't decide on what to do:

---

Our best weapon against Dragon Stompy is their inconsistency. If they get their very good draws, such as turn 1 Chalice @ 1, turn 2 Moon, turn 3 big creature, we are pretty much screwed unless we can setup through Chalice @ 1 and land a Serenity through Moon. On the play, we are able to land Top on turn 1 more than 40% of the time (counting mullingans as increased chance), which will be able to get you out of that kind of situation. These scenarios won't happen any close to often, either their clock being a lame ass 2/2 creature or them not having the Moon+Chalice lock along with a big creature.

I've been boarding like this vs UWb Landstill:

-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-1 Cruel Bargains
-1 Doomsday
-2 Ponder
-1 Cabal Ritual

+2 Extirpate
+1 Wipe Away
+1 Slaughter Pact
+1 Helm of Awakening
+1 Grapeshot

While testing out a list that includes SDT and SW, I ran into a variation of deadlock's stacks that I thought would be good to point out.

Cost: B or U floating, SW in hand, SDT in play, and 3 life (post-doomsday)
Result: 5 storm + Tendrils

[Top]
Lion's Eye Diamond
Meditate
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Tendrils of Agony
[Bottom]

How it works:

Cycle Street Wraith into Lion's Eye Diamond. Play Lion's Eye Diamond. Sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond for the color of mana you don't have floating. Activate Sensei's Divining Top to draw into Meditate. Play Meditate floating B drawing into Sensei's Divining Top, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony. Play Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Sensei's Divining Top, Tendrils of Agony.

The cool thing is that his first stack can be made to work with anything that draws you a single card (without adding things to your library) if you play the cards in the order I suggest. Ponder, Brainstorm, Street Wraith, Rebuild, etc. The generalization is:

U or B floating + Cantrip in hand + resources to play cantrip + SDT in play

[Top]
LED
Meditate
Dark Rit
Dark Rit
Tendrils
[Bottom]

Cantrip into LED. Play LED. Break LED for the color of mana you don't have. Activate SDT to draw into Meditate. Play Meditate floating B to draw SDT, Dark Rit, Dark Rit, and Tendrils. Play Dark Rit x2, SDT, then Tendrils. The total cost should be one of these (U||B), (UU||UB), (2U||2B)*.

*I would note that Cycling Rebuild into this Stack is equivalent to just building Meditate, LED, LED, Petal, Tendrils if you have 2U (unless of course you sided out/RFG'd all of your Lotus Petals somehow). Additionally, this stack only works with Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract if, and only if, you are floating B and not U.

Edit: I just built deadlock's Sensei's Top pile with my Dark Rituals extirpated. The trick is that something like LED, Meditate, LED, LED, Tendrils only requires 2 colorless if you have two tops in play. The actual color of the mana isn't relevant because all you need to do is spin a top once and play a top once. You lose out on one storm (only making 5 storm + Tendrils) with the pile by not having a black, but this might let you win the game under a weird situation like a Blood Moon in play and casting Doomsday with LED mana.

Cost: 2 Colorless, 2 Sensei's Divining Top in play
Result: 5 Storm + Tendrils

[Top]
Lion's Eye Diamond
Draw4
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Tendrils of Agony
[Bottom]

How it Works:

Activate Sensei's Divining Top to draw Lion's Eye Diamond. Play Lion's Eye Diamond. Use one colorless to rearrange the top three cards of your library placing Draw4 on top. Activate LED for Draw4Mana and activate Sensei's Divining Top to draw Draw4. Play Draw4 floating one colorless drawing Sensei's Divining Top, Sensei's Divining Top, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond. Use the remaining colorless to play a Sensei's Divining Top. Play both Lion's Eye Diamonds. Activate both Lion's Eye Diamonds for black. Activate Sensei's Divining Top to draw Tendrils of Agony. Play Tendrils of Agony with at least 5 storm.

I appreciate the discussion about SB strategy's, which were my biggest weakness with this deck till now.

First off a small question concerning the uwb landstill sb plan, why side out the Infernal Contract? They dont pressure our life, so it can be cast as a setup spell, i would cut a Mystical Tutor instead.

Not that it is terrible important, but the other day i had an game against MWC(Mono White Controll), i am not quite sure if it is the best thing to sb towards asuming the control role here (and to side all MT). It may be viable to just race before they can setup a Chant on a stick or something like that.

For now my plan looks like this:
1 Helm (Runed Halo)
1 Grapshot (Runed Halo)
2 Grip (Scepter and Rule of Law)
2 Extirpate (Chant and Abeyance)
-2 Mystical Tutor (dont want too much card disadvantage)
-1 Cabal Rit (not need / they may side in Crypt)
-1 Doomsday (not needed that fast, dont want to see it in multiples)
-1 Igg (on the draw? - i won game one with this, but i still think its better sided out, recurred Chants suck)
-1 Ponder (needed room)

Third DD stack technology, generally i come up with good stacks, but i sometimes i have problems to do this 'fast'. I dont want to bore my opponent, its just difficult to get everything on the fly.

An uncommon stack, good if you are short on mana, but have some cards in hand:
Required: SDT in play, BS and two other cards in hand, mana to play BS

[Top]
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Ill-Gotten Gains
Tendrils of Agony
[Bottom]

-Cast BS, draw into Petal, LED, LED, put back the two other cards.
-Cast Petal, LED, LED, crack Petal and use the top to put Igg on the top of your Library. Crack both LEDs for UUU and BBB
-Top into IGG and cast it, return BS, LED, LED.
-Cast LED, LED, BS, you can crack the LEDS here or..
-Draw and cast SDT (putting back the two cards again), crack LED here.
-Now you have B/U floating + 2*LED mana to spin the Top and put Tendrils on the top and draw into it.
Result: 9 Storm + Tendrils with only U needed besides Doomsday mana.

Note that i am slightly displeased to have 1 mana left after Tendrils :wink:

EDIT:
Additional sidenote concerning the Ponder Stack:
If you have an additional mana floating besides the U + Draw4Mana you can increase your storm count by 2, if you include an Igg instead of the Petal (quite obvious though), i just happened to me that i couldnt milk the regular Ponder for enough Storm.

I had an interesting situation when I was just messing around last night. I was a little off my game (a few beers and no sleep, i misbuilt a ponder stack...) but I ended up with a hand of like:

2 land in play
(in hand)
2 LED
2 D. Rit
1 bargain
1 Land
1 Mystical Tutor

Is there any way to win this turn (turn 2) with this? I thought there was by tutoring for DDay and the going draw4, but that only works if you pull a cantrip in the top 4 along with DDay, which I didn't.