[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

Wouldn't it fit better in UGB rather than UWB, though?

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Well, my thought process was from the direction of which colors give you the best spot removal, and that was clearly black and white (Swords is obvious, and Vindicate is also quite solid, unlike, in my opinion, Putrefy). Elspeth was the second to last card I decided upon; which win condition I ended up using was really not the focus. As for green, Deed is great, but it's at its best in a deck which relies on it to mop up the entire board, which is not this deck -- granted, Deed plus Jace is some nice synergy. And I explicitly didn't want to play Tarmogoyf (in the main deck), but that's partly due to my general perspective on Tarmogoyf in control decks, where it hasn't blown me away, and I know others have had different experiences. My very first experiment on this front was actually a deck which had Jace and Tarmogoyf to protect it, and most of the time what Tarmogoyf did was die, followed by Jace getting eaten by Factories or something. I've found that you either want to play lots of creatures or no creatures, and because I definitely want to play significant amounts of removal, which precludes the former, that leaves no creatures. (For the record, the other card I frequently considered for protecting Tarmogoyf with was Bitterblossom, which doesn't face quite the same difficulties.)

I think the best alternative to white might actually be more black. (Or, possibly, vice versa.) Maybe a small green splash for Deed, and then Goyf in the board for the decks he's good against -- small creature aggro and combo. (Which is more or less disjoint with the set of decks this one is aimed at, i.e. decks with small numbers of large creatures.)

EDIT -- 7/8 Tarmogoyfs were pretty cool. But it's more of a novelty than something of significant worth one should strive to obtain. Oh, and Bitterblossoms would give you 8/9 Tarmogoyfs. Awesome?

Another thing you could do is cut Standstills and Counterspells for Tops and Counterbalances, if you're of the view that Counterbalance is far and away the best card in the format and any deck which could play it and doesn't is worse because of it. (I think the best word for what I am about this is agnostic.) This does leave you dangerously low on the blue card count. I'm not sure if you would also want to cut Factories in this case, because they do at least block. (You could also, I guess, commit sacrilege against the Mana Gods by cutting Brainstorm instead of Standstill.) (If you cut Jace Beleren, that's not highly conducive to building a deck which maximally abuses Jace Beleren.)

Have you taken a look at "TEC"? This list is getting to the point where it is incredibly similar to that deck. I know Nightmare was running it for quite awhile but he seems to have given up on the deck lately although I don't know his reasons. He was running the Goyfs and I agree that going more in the control route is probably a better call but perhaps there is some insight to be gained in looking through that thread.

I remember that deck, but I don't remember it being too similar beyond both decks running Jace, and at one point, Standstills (sans manlands). TEC seems more like a precursor to ITF. This is just Landstill with Jace instead of Fact or whatever else, more spot removal instead of mass removal, and more spot removal instead of whatever other random stuff (Snares, Wishes, etc.). Though, of course, the angle of approach was different (let's build a deck to abuse Jace!), but that's where it ended up.

Nightmare started out in the same boat from what I saw. He utilizes the Counter Top engine with an excessive amount of removal. He didn't run Elspeth, wasn't printed yet, but he ran Hoofprints and goyf as back up win conditions. He also opted for Meditate over Standstill due to Counterbalance partly because of the 3x mana slot and partially because he could get such a solid lock on the game once he stabalized, plus after actual tournament play Standstill turned out to be too much of a liability.

This seems like it is more a control deck that happens to have Factory and Standstill in it rather than an alternative version to Landstill. I've tried the simple switch of going from FoF to Jace and I agree that it isn't the best way to try and expoit Jace nor is it probably the best idea for current versions of Landstill. Your only strength that is playable with Standstill in play is the Factories, where Dreadstill go's for an aggresive combo style win this build seems to go more for a controling slower inevitable win through sheer card advantage. This is just my opinion but I wouldn't consider this or Dreadstill to actually be Landstill varients.

Jace is definetly just sitting there waiting for somebody to do something amazing with it but I honestly think Standstill would be more of a Liability than a boon for this deck. Yes if you are winning the game you can drop Standstill and reap the card advantage, hell i've even played against Goblins running Standstill before. The difference is that in Landstill if you play Standstill with the board clear or even sometimes with something small in play you can still expect to win under Standstill where your opponent cant. For example if you run into UW Landstill packing Decree your entire Standstill draw engine is cut off because you almost are never going to be able to safely play it. This is just my opinion but both TEC and ITF are solid control decks and they don't play Standstill for what appears to me as similar reasons that I wouldn't play it here.

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Originally Posted by konsultant

This seems like it is more a control deck that happens to have Factory and Standstill in it rather than an alternative version to Landstill.

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You're entirely correct about this, of course. It's just that I didn't see how it was all that close to TEC, either, so in its current form it looked more like a Landstill variant to me, comparatively. I didn't get the same removal-centric (especially spot removal centric) and let's-abuse-Jace vibe from TEC, but I guess if you count Tarmogoyf as removal then it's closer.

I did wonder whether Standstill was the next best draw after Jace, but I figured it must be. After all, it's good in GBx Landstill, and they usually don't run Dragons or Decrees either, nor, often, many Wastelands or manlands besides Factories. But it's true that while Standstill is awesome in theory, it does turn to shit in practice against many of the actual decks in the metagame, so maybe something like Meditate (or even Fact) is worth a look. Or Top. The question, then, is what to do about the Factories. Keep running them? Why not? They do at least protect Jace from smaller guys, and chump for a turn against larger ones if necessary. (Not to mention turning opposing Standstills to shit in many cases.) Are there any lands besides Kor Haven which both produce mana and are worth a damn against large creatures (and don't cost infinite mana to activate, like that Azorius one)?

(Relatedly, if this is a control deck which happens to play Standstill but could just as easily not, should I start a new thread for it?)

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/inde...pefilter=Lands

There aren't, unless those threats happen to have shadow. The Kor Haven is actually a pretty brilliant find, considering that search. But I'd like to commend you on the build. It looks very interesting; I'm testing it out on MWS.

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Originally Posted by Illissius

You're entirely correct about this, of course. It's just that I didn't see how it was all that close to TEC, either, so in its current form it looked more like a Landstill variant to me, comparatively. I didn't get the same removal-centric (especially spot removal centric) and let's-abuse-Jace vibe from TEC, but I guess if you count Tarmogoyf as removal then it's closer.

I did wonder whether Standstill was the next best draw after Jace, but I figured it must be. After all, it's good in GBx Landstill, and they usually don't run Dragons or Decrees either, nor, often, many Wastelands or manlands besides Factories. But it's true that while Standstill is awesome in theory, it does turn to shit in practice against many of the actual decks in the metagame, so maybe something like Meditate (or even Fact) is worth a look. Or Top. The question, then, is what to do about the Factories. Keep running them? Why not? They do at least protect Jace from smaller guys, and chump for a turn against larger ones if necessary. (Not to mention turning opposing Standstills to shit in many cases.) Are there any lands besides Kor Haven which both produce mana and are worth a damn against large creatures (and don't cost infinite mana to activate, like that Azorius one)?

(Relatedly, if this is a control deck which happens to play Standstill but could just as easily not, should I start a new thread for it?)

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I would definetly play the Factories, they are very solid in any control based and are invaluable against Goblins especially if you plan on trying to protect Plainswalkers. Wasteland is hit or miss, without Loam, Crucible or Standstill's it's hard to justify playing them unless you want to destroy opposing Factories. I would stick with the color choices giving you Vindicate whitch could substitute the Wastelands in most cases. I think the first and biggest question to ask is whether or not to run Counterbalance? If you are then you have the entire Legacy curve of 1-4 that you should be considering when making card choices. Perhaps a new thread based around a Jace control deck would yield you better results for deck ideas.

I don't know of any other lands that hinder creatures other than Maze of Ith or Tabernacle niether of whitch produce mana. Maze is incredible when paired with Wrath and Tabernacle could be good if paired with Crucible and Wastelands. A freind of mine ran a heavy land based deck with Mazes and Tabernacle that ran Crucible's and Exploration put into a control shell. He was running Belcher Severence as the primary win condition with Factories as his back up. He had alot of success with it and Jace seems like alot better win condition for that style deck than the Belcher combo was.

Does nobody run UWb anymore?

Comming back for a while, I wish to play that.

Here is the list I have sleeved up:

lands//23
4 mishra's factory
1 wasteland
1 tolaria west
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 scrubland
1 underground sea
3 island
2 plains

creatures//1
1 eternal dragon

spells//36
4 force of will
3 counterspell
2 spell snare

4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 humility
3 engineered explosives
2 decree of justice

1 crucible of worlds
2 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
2 cunning wish
4 standstill


sideboard//
3 extirpate
4 meddling mage
1 dismantling blow
1 slaughter pact
1 enlightened tutor
2 pithing needle
3 runed halo

I know that Cwish is a little slow for the metagame, but my curve is slightly lower than the older lists, and it is decent utility for only two slots.

The sideboard is meh, but thatz b/c I don't know what my meta is anymore.

Seems fairly standard.

If you're going to run a singleton Wasteland, though, Dust Bowl is much better.

Also, I might drop a Wrath for Elspeth. Talk about an amazingly versatile wincon.

I don't play Top myself, though that seems to be a really player dependant choice. Instead I play another Spell Snare and an Academy Ruins, with a slightly different land configuration.

I also like to have Hydroblasts in the board, but obviously that's meta dependent.

The sensei's were originally a test slot, but they turned out pretty amazing for the deck, as it allows us to hit our landdrops always, helps w/ a crucible/fetch/dragon , and is good under SS.

I really like the addition.

You are right about dustbowl, I should try it.

I dunno about elseph, as I have never played him before... I will try him out though.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

Does nobody run UWb anymore?

Comming back for a while, I wish to play that.

Here is the list I have sleeved up:

lands//23
4 mishra's factory
1 wasteland
1 tolaria west
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 scrubland
1 underground sea
3 island
2 plains

creatures//1
1 eternal dragon

spells//36
4 force of will
3 counterspell
2 spell snare

4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 humility
3 engineered explosives
2 decree of justice

1 crucible of worlds
2 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
2 cunning wish
4 standstill


sideboard//
3 extirpate
4 meddling mage
1 dismantling blow
1 slaughter pact
1 enlightened tutor
2 pithing needle
3 runed halo

I know that Cwish is a little slow for the metagame, but my curve is slightly lower than the older lists, and it is decent utility for only two slots.

The sideboard is meh, but thatz b/c I don't know what my meta is anymore.

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From the maindeck

-1 Counterspell
-1 Humility

+1 Spell Snare
+1 Enlighten Tutor


SB:

-1 Slaughter Pact
-1 Dismantling Blow
-2 Pithing Needle
-4 Meddling Mage

+1 Return to Dust
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+4 Counterbalance
+1 Circle of Protection: Red
+1 Tormod's Crypt


Counterbalance is amazing. I'm in the process of playing around with them; Goyfs in the maindeck or not, they're amazing regardless. Personally, I'd cut the Spell Snares in the maindeck for more 2cc cards.

So... made almost all those changes last second (couldn't get: dustbowl, the 3rd spellsnare, or return to dust)...


I played in my first local event in a long time tonight, getting first place, beating (i think in this order):

1. janky RG beatz
2. Reanimator
3. Countersliver
4. stasis (surprisingly good, as it beat both goblins, and 4c landstill, and tied w/ funkbrew b4 playing me for first).


I went 4-0 and got 20$ for my troubles.

I loved all of the newer additions (cb/top, and spell snare)... I think I may come back but am still unsure, as I am in the process of getting rid of almost all of my collection (sans my landstill deck).

Hi!
i've done some testing with my wish-less list (was discussed last month in this thread) and i felt really fine without wish (that is too slow for the present meta). Here's how my list looks like now:

UWb Landstill (Wishless) v1.0 by Luca Bozzato


// Lands
4 [U] Tundra
1 [A] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [UG] Plains
3 [UG] Island
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [A] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [LRW] Ponder
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [A] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [A] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

The sb is obv meta dependant, and the sensei's slot can be a o-ring for the occasion. I was really intrigued by the idea of inserting jace in this list, but there i've found some problems/hints.

1) where do I fit jace? ^^ In the list ilisius suggested, jace is another draw engine that substitutes fof or something other but not standstill. Could it be possible to totally eliminate standstill to make room for jace? especially for a deck that, like the one illisius posted, does not run decree. I'm now trying to run 4 still 2 jace (-1ponder-1fof), but i think it's possible to run 3 still 3 jace (completely changing still with jace would also de-value the power of etutor).

2) tolaria west is no more needed, but dust bowl/academy ruins are still tools we can't play without (oh, and jace works well under the recursion of ee/crypt). i could use this slot to improve tutor's toolbox, or some other stuff. it could be a:
-monovindicate
-3rd explo
-nevinyrral's disk
-3rd wrath
-monopithing needle (very useful g1 against lotta things)
-monoisochron scepter (snare, spell, swords)
-mono o-ring
-mono-runed halo

I don't really know which one is the best right now

3) My wincons are really many. jace is synergistic with elspeth and ajani (ithe only landstill i've been beaten by run 3 ajani 2 elspeth...ajani is really good with decree, but i run only 1 decree since my meta is full of landstill and i can't throw it out), really more than standstill.

4) there are interesting conflux card. path to exile is surely the first, and martial coup would have been interesting if it was an instant.

That's all for now, i'll wait for suggestions ^^

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Originally Posted by gustha

1) where do I fit jace? ^^ In the list ilisius suggested, jace is another draw engine that substitutes fof or something other but not standstill. Could it be possible to totally eliminate standstill to make room for jace? especially for a deck that, like the one illisius posted, does not run decree. I'm now trying to run 4 still 2 jace (-1ponder-1fof), but i think it's possible to run 3 still 3 jace (completely changing still with jace would also de-value the power of etutor).

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An option is to cut a Ponder for an FoF.

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2) tolaria west is no more needed, but dust bowl/academy ruins are still tools we can't play without (oh, and jace works well under the recursion of ee/crypt). i could use this slot to improve tutor's toolbox, or some other stuff. it could be a:
-monovindicate
-3rd explo
-nevinyrral's disk
-3rd wrath
-monopithing needle (very useful g1 against lotta things)
-monoisochron scepter (snare, spell, swords)
-mono o-ring
-mono-runed halo

I don't really know which one is the best right now

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Run a 3rd EE. EEs are really good.

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3) My wincons are really many. jace is synergistic with elspeth and ajani (ithe only landstill i've been beaten by run 3 ajani 2 elspeth...ajani is really good with decree, but i run only 1 decree since my meta is full of landstill and i can't throw it out), really more than standstill.

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Landstill mirrors are the reason why you should be running 2-3 DoJs. Not to mention DoJ gets around counters. Also, DoJs help win so many mirrors, it's absurd.

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4) there are interesting conflux card. path to exile is surely the first, and martial coup would have been interesting if it was an instant.

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It's probably a bad card to run in this sort of deck. Giving the opponent card advantage as well as a tempo boost isnt what you want to see. I especially dont want to be casting this card against an aggro deck like Vial Goblins.

1) nor ponder nor fof do satisfy me
2) 3rd EE is surely good, i run 3ee till last year. With tolaria gone, it's surely a good thing to do. Also needle is never a dead card.
3) elspeth replaces doj, that's too slow for my tastes. 2 doj are good if paired with 2-3 ajani. the slot of tolaria can be the 2nd doj, but it does not satisfy me, especially since planeswalkers are a better wincon (and EE@0 resolves others' doj). This morning i chose hoofsprint of the stag as the filler for tolaria slot. it's synergistic with lotta things.
4) path to exile didn't excite me too...i'm not telling it's a f**king good card for landstill, only that we might have some thoughts about it. doubts on martial coup already expressed. ^^

Hey guys I'm looking to play landstill but just UW. Is it still viable?\

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [10E] Island (3)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [4E] Plains (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [IA] Counterspell
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
3 [8E] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo

Its more of a brainstorm, I haven't tested it and would like your input if you have it. Thanks

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Originally Posted by Irish_Mafia

Hey guys I'm looking to play landstill but just UW. Is it still viable?\

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [10E] Island (3)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [4E] Plains (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [IA] Counterspell
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
3 [8E] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo

Its more of a brainstorm, I haven't tested it and would like your input if you have it. Thanks

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Engineered Explosive's can be fairly weak with only 2 colors but outside of that the deck looks viable. My list is primarily Blue/White with Black only for MD Vindicates and Plague in the SB. Without a 3rd Color I'd probably run some kind of Disenchant effect, Probably Dismantaling Blow in the SB. I see the 1x Scrubland so you may be able to get away with the EE but it seems abit risky to me. Perhaps add a Trop or something just to give you access to more reliable use from Explosives.

I loved running UW landstill with one MB trop to up the usefulness of EE. The manabase is beautifully stable (I only ever got screwed a few times, and they were fluke-y draws), and crucible is just broken in this format. Runed Halo from the board is also as amazing as one might think. I don't know if I'd run elspeths, though; Decree and E. Dragon are such good kill conditions. A couple of thoughts: if you rely on humility over wrath of god, you become very vulnerable to aggro decks running Kgrip post board, so I'd suggest no less than 3 Wrath effects with maybe one or two humility. Fact or fiction is amazing as well; the more you can do on your opponent's end step the better.

Tell me how you like spell snare in that build, I never got a chance to test it out.

Also, what do y'all think of the new swords? This deck seems like the sort that could really make use of 8 STP's, especially against Team America which plays 0 basics.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Tell me how you like spell snare in that build, I never got a chance to test it out.

Also, what do y'all think of the new swords? This deck seems like the sort that could really make use of 8 STP's, especially against Team America which plays 0 basics.

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I'm a pretty big fan of Spell Snare, it's a solid card against the majority of decks that give you trouble and the slower decks where it isn't as relevent are usually in your favor already.

The only real problem with the new swords is that STP is better for Landstill and it doesn't deal with Goose. I could see running 1-2 copies in builds that don't run Black or possably running it as a Wish target. Running any more than that would just make Goose worse for Landstill. The tempo disadvantage of the card can be a very big drawback, for instance using it on a turn one Lackey against Goblins while still getting rid of Lackey is good the extra Mana excell you give them is a pretty big drawback.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

I loved running UW landstill with one MB trop to up the usefulness of EE. The manabase is beautifully stable (I only ever got screwed a few times, and they were fluke-y draws), and crucible is just broken in this format. Runed Halo from the board is also as amazing as one might think. I don't know if I'd run elspeths, though; Decree and E. Dragon are such good kill conditions. A couple of thoughts: if you rely on humility over wrath of god, you become very vulnerable to aggro decks running Kgrip post board, so I'd suggest no less than 3 Wrath effects with maybe one or two humility. Fact or fiction is amazing as well; the more you can do on your opponent's end step the better.

Tell me how you like spell snare in that build, I never got a chance to test it out.

Also, what do y'all think of the new swords? This deck seems like the sort that could really make use of 8 STP's, especially against Team America which plays 0 basics.

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What would you run in the 2 elspeth slots? I have 3 wrath effects. I might put FoF in those slots. Idk tho. And I will throw in a trop to then.

Without posting anything too techy for anyone the basic layout for wrath is

with wish
x2 wrath
x1 humility

without
x3 wrath

:) simple sweet and fun.

Elspeth demands in landstill bare minimum 1 slot. Almost all the current builds run 2. Any less or any more is very debatable and good luck winning games as consistently and easily.

So far in testing with the current list I run uwb_wish_still in a group of 30 mws testers for gp chicago, im x-2. Testing against ugr dreadstill uw dreadstill mono blue control eva green gobbos ichorid, tes, and aggro loam. I haven't tested the mirror, but I know its a positive matchup.

So bottom line for anyone doubting wish. Most of my testing has been done post board so wish is still good after boarding, and it doesn't mess up your board like some people say. Bottom line if you dont run it you dont have the advantage and you sacrifice your aggro loam, ichorid, and anything using a graveyard or thrash type of deck around. Its simply rediculous to think that vindicate is actually better "rather then effecient" then wish.

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Without posting anything too techy for anyone the basic layout for wrath is

with wish
x2 wrath
x1 humility

without
x3 wrath

:) simple sweet and fun.

Elspeth demands in landstill bare minimum 1 slot. Almost all the current builds run 2. Any less or any more is very debatable and good luck winning games as consistently and easily.

So far in testing with the current list I run uwb_wish_still in a group of 30 mws testers for gp chicago, im x-2. Testing against ugr dreadstill uw dreadstill mono blue control eva green gobbos ichorid, tes, and aggro loam. I haven't tested the mirror, but I know its a positive matchup.

So bottom line for anyone doubting wish. Most of my testing has been done post board so wish is still good after boarding, and it doesn't mess up your board like some people say. Bottom line if you dont run it you dont have the advantage and you sacrifice your aggro loam, ichorid, and anything using a graveyard or thrash type of deck around. Its simply rediculous to think that vindicate is actually better "rather then effecient" then wish.

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Post you list please?

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Originally Posted by Irish_Mafia

Post you list please?

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When GP chicago rolls around you'll see it :)

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Bottom line if you dont run it you dont have the advantage and you sacrifice your aggro loam, ichorid, and anything using a graveyard or thrash type of deck around.

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I have to disagree with Wish being key against thrash and ichorid. Against Ichorid pre-sideboard, they usually kill you before the deck reaches four mana to Wish+Extirpate, or they have annihilated your hand with Therapies and Unmask. Plus, one Extirpate isn't going to stop them with the variety of threats they have.

I haven't found Wish that exciting against tempo thresh over Vindicate, but Vindicate is mediocre in that matchup, too. The times I cast Wish into Extirpate I was already ahead, and it had no impact on the game. When I was even or behind I always would go for Wish into Enlightened Tutor or Pulse.

Extirpate isn't need for Loam or Thrash and honestly i'd rather have Leyline or Crypt for Ichorid than Extirpate. Personally I have given up on Ichorid due to how many board slots it takes to increase my win percentages enough to be relevent in a match where I almost don't bother to play game 1. Ajani and Mage should be more than enough to beat Loam and are relevent in numerous other match ups. I don't know your exact list but Thrash should be a good match up with or without any SB options.

Vindicate is incredibly versatile as is Wish but Vindicate is considerably less of an investment than Wish and is a solid card against pretty much every deck I can think of outside of Ichorid. Wish with the appropriate board is an amazing card but it detracts from your SB capabilities whitch can limit your ability to board into a very redundent inevitable win against certain decks. Wish increases your potential in game one but doesn't offer as much for games 2 and 3. If they were to ban LED and Top I would drop the Vindicate's for Wish in a heartbeat. Until that happens imho Vindicate has more to offer against the whole field as far as increasing your win percentage's in match ups across the whole of Legacy.

So I played the newest list I have been working on yesterday at the Mox Emerald event in Hadley with some great success. I went 7-0-2 with 2 intentional draws after going 4-0 in the swiss. I went 14-1 in games for the day.

The list of the day:

3x Brainstorm [not a mistake]
4x Standstill
2x Fact or Fiction
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spellsnare [I cut the 4th Brainstorm for the 3rd Spellsnare, MVP!!!!!]

4x STP
3x Wrath
3x Decree of Justice
2x Eternal Dragon

3x Vindicate

3x EE

4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Island
2x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland

SB:
3x Runed Halo
4x Meddling Mage
2x Ajani Goldmane
2x Chainer's Edict [Fuck you Mongoose]
4x Engineered Plague

Deck did everything I wanted it to, the Ichorid match is horrible but it's possable to win with some luck. Outside of that the deck beats everything else pretty good. The missing Brainstorm was irrelevent as it is my primary pitch card to FOW anyway and the Spellsnares were amazing along with the Vindicates.

Round one vs Survival:
Kept Survival out of play both games and rode Dragons for the wins.

Round two vs Red Thresh:
LOL I love playing against Thresh with this build, it's about 95% in my favor. I killed everything he played and rode out soldier tokens for both wins.

Round three vs Sliver Survival with Vial:
Kept Vial out of play and he never drew Survival, Board in 4x E plague and 2x Edicts. Anything running creatures has an horrible match against this deck.

Round four vs Survival [Jaynel]:
Went Land Destruction against him with Vindicates and Wastelands for my wins game one and three. I kept a hand of Waste/Factory and Dragon game 2, his Thoughtsieze on Dragon turn one took me out of it and he went nuts with me having nothing to stop him.

ID rounds 5 and 6

Top 8 vs MUC:
Game one we go back and forth for along time but I eventually cycle a decree for ten tokens that he doesn't have an answer for. Game two he mulls to 5 on the play, I kept a subpar hand but I dropped a Mage on Shackles and rode him for the win.

Top 4 vs Jaynel again.
Game one takes forever but I swing for lethal damage with angel tokens when I have zero cards left in my Library and nothing but 3x Standstills in my hand. He made a couple mistakes that may have allowed me to win. Game two, have I mentioned how good LD is against Survival? He starts off with a fetch and Thoughtsieze. I respond on my turn with a Wasteland. We both kept low Mana Hands but I had a pair of Factories that I decide to go aggresive with on turn two and I take a really quick win.

Finals vs ANT:
Game one he either miscounts or just didn't count but he goes off and was one Storm shy of killing me due to his Pact of Negation on his own Dark Ritual. Game 2 I open 5x Counters and 2x Land, he does nothing early and rip into a Mage on Ad Nauseum and a Halo on Tendrils. He tried to do some stuff but couldn't deal with all the hate I had.

Dang Konsultant's Finish was more impressive than mine. I top 8ed at Hadley going 4-0-2 in swiss and losing to Jaynel GBrw Survival.

My decklist:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Island
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant - I still get laughed at for playing this card, but it gets there even against combo, read match write up.
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds - MVP
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction - lawl give me four cards lawl
3 [JGC] Counterspell - Solid as always
2 [DIS] Spell Snare - As Geoff said MVP
3 [AP] Vindicate - Good everytime I saw it no lie.

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo - Amazing all the time
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus - Worthless

Round 1: Mighty Quinn Joseph B. 1-1-1
Game 1: I win by drawing all my counters and Elspeth.
Game 2: I have lethal on the board next turn holding double force, stp, and wrath with 5 mana untapped an he cats abeyance with 2 cards in hand. I'm thinking there is no way he can kill me this turn and I let the abeyance resolved and lost to painter + grindstone.
Game 3: I rip vindicate to stop him from swinging for lethal in turn 5 of extended time.

Round 2: Ur Dreadstill Matt Leblanc 2-0
Game 1: Turn 2 standstill with waste for his factory and two factory of my own. He gets stuck on 2 mana.
Game 2: Runed halo on dreadstill and Elspeth beats. Again he gets stuck on a few lands.

Round 3: F2K9 (Amazing deck) Tariq White (sp?) 1-1-1
I wish I saw crucible in this match for recurring wasteland on all his pretty non-basics.
Game 1: An epic 30+ min match that I win by tapping out to put Angels into play against his eternal dragon.
Game 2: He beats me with Tombstalker with 5 minutes left and I have no cards in hand.

Round 4: Boros Deck Wins w/ Scepter 2-0
Game 1: Mull to 5 with force, stp, snare, fetch counterspell. I keep he goes for turn 2 scepter that I snare and proceed to rip two lands off the top and a crucible to stabilize. Elspeth gets there with lots of little soldiers running around.
Game 2: I mull to 5 again with garbage. Luckily he has a slow start and I am able to stabilize behind crucible and rune halo on golbin legionaire and 2/2 haste flyer for 1RW. I swords my pumped mishra's factory off Elspeth to get out of burn range.

Round 5: Jesse UW Landstill mmmm DA MIRROR 1-0
Game 1: Epic Epic Match: I start with turn 2 standstill which gets snared and He plays a standstill on his following turn. I rip factory and beat. Lots of lands and recurring ee off academy ruins tries to solve the problem of counterbalance. Decree for 6 brings him to 7 that gets wrathed away. He decrees for 6 and I ee them away. I push through an Elspeth by forcing him to draw his 4 drop off the top of counterbalance with standstill. Many turns later I set off Elspeth's Ultimate. At one point I get rid of his crucible and he goes to ruins it back to the top but I had my academy ruins in play for 20+ turns and he only had his out for 2 turns. We just called it shit luck and sent both to the graveyard. He has 3 cards left in the deck and he rips his last out in decree of justice for 3x Angels. I have a token and elspeth and he's at 1 me 4. I up tap and rip ee to kill all his dudes (mine being indestrucible.)
Game 2: He leads with mishra and beats. I vindicate it. Drop Elspeth but time runs out.

Round 6: Bryant Cook TES 2-1
Game 1: I have double force, double brainstorm, snare, tundra, colorless source. A few turns in he chants me, I force, he goes off I force a lion's eye diamond and he plays another and tendrils me.
Game 2: I drop Mage naming tendrils turn 2 on the play. He combos and duress' a EE out of my hand. He burning wishes and He says, "what do I go for?" I say diminishing returns, he ETWs for 20 tokens. Me being at 19 life with a single block isn't going to cut it. I rip EE off the top like a champ and we go to game 3.
Game 2: He has a slow start and I drop Standstill with 5 mana, double force, double cs, snare, bs, bs. I fof at his end step nexting him 3 cards, which I get laughed at for, and he pyroblast my fof and I proceed to drop mage naming wish. I cs two ad nauseams and I go to beats. He casts shusher as a blocker at 5 life. I drop Elspeth and fly in for 5. "I'm going to lose to that awful card?"

Top 8:
Jaynel GBrw Survival: 2-0
I lose for the third time in a top 8 to survival. Relic is god awful.

Slops:
Mass & CT drivers not knowing how to drive in the snow
Scrubbing in the top 8 of another tournament.
Team Awesome not showing up in force.
Getting laughed at during the TES match - You never want to give the TES player three cards...?

Props:
Calzones at Primo Pizzeria near Hadley
Making top 8
Ripping cards all day thanks to my foil Riddle of Lightning
Kevin for getting married and holding a great tournament
Vindicate and Spell Snare being good enough to get there
Geoff for allowing me to steal his list ... sort of

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rockout

Dang Konsultant's Finish was more impressive than mine. I top 8ed at Hadley going 4-0-2 in swiss and losing to Jaynel GBrw Survival.
[Really long quote deleted - Bardo.]

---

Funny my testing of relic against survival has been amazing. Im going to look up the survival list. I just don't see how you loose when you have it. Other then that nice finish. You did well buddy. Now get back to GP TESTING!!!

I always follow the debates on landstill on the source, but in these days they're a little bit confusing 'cause there are so many interesting approaches to test. I'm still testing the list with e-tutor replacing c-wish, and I really find that something's missing, especially the disenchant effect. I really feel that vindicate's the card I want in my list, but i don't know where to fit it. Also, i've never used it and I think I'll need little indications about how it works (this may seem a noob question, but vindicate it's not in my playing mentality, I can do nothing 'bout that :laugh: ). I'm testing too the effect of the "planeswalker flood", as someone stated here, especially since here in italy people using landstill also run at least 2 PW. Vindicate it's a sorcery, still it is a more versatile card that c-wish.

This is the list i'm playing now:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Scrubland
3 [UG] Plains
3 [UG] Island
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
4 [A] Tundra
1 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [A] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [A] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OD] Standstill
1 [U] Nevinyrral's Disk

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [A] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [OD] Aegis of Honor

Now I read those posts and i'm a bit confused:

1) where's humility gone?!? why it's no more in landstill?
2) the role of e-tutor is dim with vindicate?
3) 2 ajani: they're good with decree and elspeth. they're good against loam (while jace is not so good), and they're good with burn. are 2 fair enough to stopo burn? (e tutor+cop red+aegis of honor really shines here)
4) in a meta full of landstill and 3sh, is 3 mishra+3 wasteland good? (only 3 mishra?)
5) what fo you side for halo and in what MU? i've always used it only against combo (again: tutor+canonist+halo/mage really is worthless)
6) how's changed the MU against stompy?
7) 3 eng plague are of course too much for my meta, but that's not a problem of the list ^^
8) I need crucible

So, fusing all the positive inputs I got from this thread, I suggest a list as a draft:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Swamp (1)
2 [MM] Plains (3)
2 [APL] Island (2)
1 [R] Scrubland

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [R] Wrath of God
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
1 [A] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [A] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo

With jace providing a good draw engine paired with Standstill. The 3rd EE becomes a disk (mass destruction, and is also indestructible if the 3rd ability of elspeth resolves, since it's destruction is not a part of the cost of its ability but happens when the ability resolves). The side is just a draft: 3 ajani replace jace against burn-aggro loam. I think it's ok also against goblin-slivers. plague for decks like gobbo etc. tormod+relic for loam/icho. mage for burn icho combo. halo is a big question mark.

Humility is still amazing. Hands down it shuts off Survival, Goblins, Dstompy, and other creature decks, but being proactive with vindicate and being a little more aggressive allows matches to finish faster and clear their answers instead of all those creatures sitting on the board hiding under an enchantment. I'm still in the process of testing Humility and Vindicate.

Your list looks just fine. I like FoF instead of Jace but it boils down to preference. FoFing in response to a key spell that could break the game and you flip Force and four other cards, your opponent will usually go force and 4 cards netting you three cards and you force their spell anyway. I had it happen at least twice in my matches this past Saturday. One was force and 4 cards and one was stp and cs, snare, wrath, land. Ofcourse, I'll take the 4 cards 99.9% of the time. Like I said, personal preference.

Also, Rune Halo is so versatile in the side board. What match can't you board it in against? Combo? Tendrils, Chant. Survival? Goyf, Therapy, Duress. Goblins? Piledriver, Siege-Gang. Dreadstill? Dreadnaught, factory. Thresh? ... You get the point. You dont have to bring it in, but it tends to make my life a little easier in some of my tougher matches.

I was Konsultant's round two opponent at Off the Wall yesterday and granted I'm a new player but he totally rolled me. I was running UGr Threshold without Top/Counterbalance or Stifle and didn't stand a chance.

If you're going to be playing Threshold against Konsultant Stifle would need to be in your deck... about 15 times. He uses the plainscycling/buyback of his Eternal Dragons to build up a huge manabase while you are locked under Standstill and Decree of Justice with counter support completely wasted me. Once you are locked under his Standstill let's say you draw your counter support and then try to land a creature, he pretty much always Standstill draws into his own counter support or creature hate (if he wasn't holding them already) and that's it. I got Goyfs and Magus of the Moon into play only to have them STP'd with counter backup instantly. With the build I had there was very little I could do against his deck. He was a cool guy though and even helped me to understand some of the rules better.

Moon thresh is not a horrible MU for landstill, my list (not the vindicate-one) run 6 basics and gets out of the reach of B2B, moon effects etc. even without dragon. And believe me, when he started recurring dragon, he had already won :smile:

Coming back to the original discussion. Yeah, fof is good to do in response to stgh., but jace is a constant draw engine (and works as a finisher as well, in some cases when you have the total control of the situation). And it works very well with e-tutor, since you can use it in your MP and then activate jace (and with SDT is amazingly good!).

Quote:

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Also, Rune Halo is so versatile in the side board. What match can't you board it in against? Combo? Tendrils, Chant. Survival? Goyf, Therapy, Duress. Goblins? Piledriver, Siege-Gang. Dreadstill? Dreadnaught, factory. Thresh? ... You get the point. You dont have to bring it in, but it tends to make my life a little easier in some of my tougher matches.

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What are they? I really don't know what to side out against dreadstill to put halo in, especially since Vindicate is already working good on dreadnought and stp with goyf. And with gobbo it's the same (maybe jace's not working good and can be sided out, but for plague).

Quote:

---

Humility is still amazing. Hands down it shuts off Survival, Goblins, Dstompy, and other creature decks, but being proactive with vindicate and being a little more aggressive allows matches to finish faster and clear their answers instead of all those creatures sitting on the board hiding under an enchantment. I'm still in the process of testing Humility and Vindicate.

---

I really can't find 2 slots to fit humility in. maybe could be a good sb card in 2x. (-1 halo -1 ajani?). I don't know, and I find halo/humility a little in contrast. The pros of this list with vindicate are...well, vindicate! the list seems more similar to the list I played two years ago, more solid, every card in 2-3x, even the sb. And jace seems a good addition to that old list, speeding up the deck really better that FoF, imho. It feels pretty stronger than the my current UWb, that's like a sieves...look at the side! The cons is that, without e-tutor, i feel a little "naked": it gives me what I want right when I want it (the god of topdeck doesn't protect me, you know...).And, without e-tutor, i hardly see a place for a singleton humility (and my list already has 61 card).
Well, i'm a little bit tired, I'll sleep on it...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gustha

I really can't find 2 slots to fit humility in. maybe could be a good sb card in 2x. (-1 halo -1 ajani?). I don't know, and I find halo/humility a little in contrast. The pros of this list with vindicate are...well, vindicate! the list seems more similar to the list I played two years ago, more solid, every card in 2-3x, even the sb. And jace seems a good addition to that old list, speeding up the deck really better that FoF, imho. It feels pretty stronger than the my current UWb, that's like a sieves...look at the side! The cons is that, without e-tutor, i feel a little "naked": it gives me what I want right when I want it (the god of topdeck doesn't protect me, you know...).And, without e-tutor, i hardly see a place for a singleton humility (and my list already has 61 card).
Well, i'm a little bit tired, I'll sleep on it...

---

I play 2 humility MB, it is redic. against any deck with creatures. It makes you elspeth tokens, Mishra's Factory, Decree tokens all superior to any one else. It should be MB imo.

With runed halo against dreadstill depending upon color configuration obv and gamestate you name:

#1 Naught. He's really the only way you truly lose in this matchup outside of horrible circumstances.

#2 mishra's factory. Their second avalible option, you can randomly get landstill'd by mishra's factorys under their own standstill while they use their wastelands a ability speed strip mines for yours on their turn. Though I've never been beaten like this it can happen.

#3 Tarmogoyf. Although this guy rarely ever gets this its still important to save your spells and runed on goyf is a solid play to make because you save your stps for naught and or mishra's.

Obviously there are different versions everywhere with this deck and alot of new threats are popping up. I've even heard of a version running u/b/g with tombstalker/ naught/ goyf. just wow, that would be fun to play answer or die type of magic that early.

I delayed my sleep a little bit... The fact is, I can't really undesrtand why boarding in 3 halo (siding out what?!? against dreadstill we can go without sb) while a single card, humilty, does a lot better and shuts down all creatures. @irishmafia: as you see, i run 1 MD, but only because there's e-tutor. The fact is that a list like this simply diminishes the power of humility. If we can get our hands on removals, there's no need of humility. We have
4 stp
3 vindicate
2/3 wrath
2/3 EE
0/1 Disk

For a total of 11/14 removal, 7 spot and 4/7 mass, 2/4 of which are recurrable with ruins. The only thing that rocks are tstalker and mishra, goyf and nought are easy to play around (EE would do for both). Humility is a good card, but it's not that good in a aggrocontrol meta, where we want fast answers and not silver bullets. I mean, i would have liked to play hoofsprint of the stag in UWb "tutor"-still, but i chose not to run it because of humility. It forces you to make choices to play around your own cards. Obv it shuts up every aggro (read: every aggro that does not run krosan grip). But (taking a look back at rockout being laughed for playing elspeth) it's not the bomb it was before the printing of elspeth. Elspeth is a better card because it's a wincon that doesn't require all the backup that humility requires. And, elspeth is also good because it makes the deck less dependent on humility: the card elspeth NEEDS to work is not humilty, but wrath of god. Humility could be a good 1x, easily tutorable when you need it, but many times i found myself putting it back on the top with brainstorm and fetch to shuffle it away. Of course, it shines against goblins, survival, slivers. But survival can be won with relic, the other two with plague. It's become a utility for our game plan, and is no more the necessary condition of our victory, as it was before time spiral/lorwyn. And I don't think that we need a singleton humility in this list, it will not suit imho.

@mossivo: what would you side out for 3 halo in the dreadstill MU? I don't really get it... maybe I of that could be a humility...

@ Gustha If you notice my list i don't play black for vindicate (due to not having them or the black lands) so for right now i like humility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by konsultant

So I played the newest list I have been working on yesterday at the Mox Emerald event in Hadley with some great success. I went 7-0-2 with 2 intentional draws after going 4-0 in the swiss. I went 14-1 in games for the day.

The list of the day:

3x Brainstorm [not a mistake]
4x Standstill
2x Fact or Fiction
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spellsnare [I cut the 4th Brainstorm for the 3rd Spellsnare, MVP!!!!!]

4x STP
3x Wrath
3x Decree of Justice
2x Eternal Dragon

3x Vindicate

3x EE

4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Island
2x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland

SB:
3x Runed Halo
4x Meddling Mage
2x Ajani Goldmane
2x Chainer's Edict [Fuck you Mongoose]
4x Engineered Plague

---

Sorry konsultant, but I dont like your list - i rather think its awful.

First the manabase:
I would cut the swamp, it makes nothing.
Then u play 3 wasteland and no crucible (???). Are u playing a fast aggro deck, which can achieve a tempo advantage after wasting a opp' land and finish quickly?
Sure u can play vindicates but u just need the crucible for the lock.
Cut the wasteland's for one dustbowl and add the crucible not only for the lock - it helps u to ensure your landdrops and the CoW is often mvp in many matchups (tempo thresh ugr or ugb, team america).

Vindicate is absolutely awful in landstill. It cost 3 mana is a sorcery, it trades only 1for1 and before I forget it: its a sorcery and landstill wants to play at instant speed or when it plays something at sorcery speed it wants to totally smack the opponent.
U have already the explosives for stuff like that and the explosives is such versatile - it can blow away multiple targets...tokens etc.
I warmly recommand to play the 4th EE when u want to handle more artifacts or stuff.

Where is the humility? It is just too good. U HAVE to play two.

Well, I also suggest to play one or two elspeth - u can cut a decree and/or a E-dragon.

Where is the cunning wish? Also the wish can help u to handle stuff etc. and wish-> pulse or wish->extirpate is often MVP in matchups like burn, goyf slugh or loam.
The wish is also superior to the enlightened tutor. I just dont get it why people try the e.-tutor again. The enlightened tutor is card disadvantage - ok it can get u standstill which would negate this but the wish is the key card in some matchups as I mentioned above and it does the same as the enlightened tutor because u play the enlightened tutor in your sideboard. U can still play wish->enlightened tutor->humility for example.

This is all a regress in the development of landstill.
In todays meta I would try a single sensei to add consistency to your list.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Irish_Mafia

@ i need the extra turns

Its a horrible list. Thats why he top 8'd.

---

That's why he won at Hadley against a great pool of players. Speaks volumes for the deck. I top 8ed the same tournament playing a similar build and vindicate was the cat's meow all day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rockout

That's why he won at Hadley against a great pool of players. Speaks volumes for the deck. I top 8ed the same tournament playing a similar build and vindicate was the cat's meow all day.

---

Well, maybe he is a very good player :wink: .
I dont want to say that the deck is bad, landstill is still such a strong deck and many people underrate the power of standstill. But konsultant's list is not a very good landstill list. U can read the arguments above. It would take me 5 minutes brainstorming to post a list, that is in my opinion much stronger.

And that vindicate was a good choice/card in some situations for you does not mean that another build would have problems in those situations.

@Konsultant, I actually like your list:laugh:, and sunday I have a big tournament and i'm probably going to play landstill but it will my first tourney with that deck(even the first time i'm going to play landstill irl).

This is how my meta probably looks like:

dreadstill, team america, eva green, tes, goblins and loam decks will show up the most and beside that some random stuff.

Is that list good for my meta, because I really like to play vindicates in ls:wink: Or is that list special tuned for your meta?



greets, Electrolyze:cool:


ps. Congratz on your finish