[Deck] Goblins

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Originally Posted by Sasan

Thalia
Tested her against Canadian in 20 Matches and she was never a factor. She took all the removal but therefore could not make an impact. Sometimes I named Soldier with Cavern and it was a mistake as all counter spells against goblins were intact now.

Thalia did nothing spectacular against Omni Tell, Rishadan Ports would have the job done too. They don't care if they cast SNT on Turn 4 or 3. And their cantrips (wish/tutor/brainstorm) is never a problem as they have some turns where they wold do nothing so they brainstorm turn 2 instead of 1 and so on.

Thalia was a bitch against Storm. She won games single handedly.

Thalia slowed down the Miracles player by a turn always and that was good. but this matchup is already in our favor.

Versus Esperblade Thalia was not good. stoneforge is not affected of her.

Thalia was terrible compared to Piledriver/Mogg War Marshal against Maverick, Burn, the Mirror.

I really really missed especially the Piledrivers. with Thalia your deck becomes slower and you get lesser fast kills.

All in all I think that Thalia is not the solution to all our combo problems :( she only shines vs Storm.


What is your opinion?

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I can hardly believe that Thaia has NO impact on Esperblade and RUG Thresh. Both decks MUST get rid of her - neither of them can win through a Thalia on board. On my last tournament I had 3 Thalias in SB simply because I think that she does what Chalice was supposed to do: being good against random decks + RUG Thresh. I decided to replace Chalice with Thalia because of her value against Esperblade.


On a different note:
I'm still riding the "no interaction"-train. Since our deck is already good at fighting countermagic I was looking for something that makes our goblins removal-proof. I want to share and discuss my "research-findings" with you:
* Steely Resolve
* Ghostway
* Dominaria's Judgment

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

On a different note:
I'm still riding the "no interaction"-train. Since our deck is already good at fighting countermagic I was looking for something that makes our goblins removal-proof. I want to share and discuss my "research-findings" with you:
* Steely Resolve
* Ghostway
* Dominaria's Judgment

Thoughts?

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Against what deck would you want this type of effect?
I don't see me playing with any of those cards (tohugh blinking Ringleader/Matron/SGC should be fun as hell).

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

I can hardly believe that Thaia has NO impact on Esperblade and RUG Thresh. Both decks MUST get rid of her - neither of them can win through a Thalia on board. On my last tournament I had 3 Thalias in SB simply because I think that she does what Chalice was supposed to do: being good against random decks + RUG Thresh. I decided to replace Chalice with Thalia because of her value against Esperblade.


On a different note:
I'm still riding the "no interaction"-train. Since our deck is already good at fighting countermagic I was looking for something that makes our goblins removal-proof. I want to share and discuss my "research-findings" with you:
* Steely Resolve
* Ghostway
* Dominaria's Judgment

Thoughts?

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Against RUG I certainly agree. She gets the removal package and saves therefore our other goblins.

Concerning Esper I must stress that their key spell is Stoneforge finding and Equipping Skull/Jitte. Removing the Equipment or Stoneforge on the spot is key to victory. I do not see that Thalia helps against that key interaction.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Against what deck would you want this type of effect?
I don't see me playing with any of those cards (tohugh blinking Ringleader/Matron/SGC should be fun as hell).

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Ghostway and D's Judgment were meant to trick massremoval in forms of Terminus, Pyroclasm and Zealous Persecusion. Steely Resolve was meant to blank spotremoval after I blanked their countermagic. I didnt really have a deck in mind that I would fight with this cards. It's just that I think that there are few things left we should worry about - and (mass-/spot-)removal is one of those things. My intention was to find cards that make our deck even unfairer, even stronger. I even consider playing Brightstone Ritual in the near future. As for Ghostway: I don't think that blinking Goblins is only cute, or fun - it's damn straight awsome.

So, with the white splash, has anybody testing running some number of Oblivion Ring in the sideboard? If so, how was it? It fights artifacts and enchantments the way Krosan Grip might, but it also attacks the Show and Tell decks in a way similar to angel of despair, all in one card. Additionally, it can let you side in Thalia for the matchups where she is sorely needed in. I haven't been playing Goblins in a long time, but this seems like it could be an effective boarding strategy to help the matchups that can be pretty abysmal otherwise. Mirror Entity is also a possible matron target somewhere, although I'm not sure if/when you'd really want the entity.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

So, with the white splash, has anybody testing running 4 Oblivion Ring in the sideboard? It fights artifacts and enchantments the way Krosan Grip might, but it also attacks the Show and Tell decks in a way similar to angel of despair, all in one card. Additionally, it can let you side in Thalia for the matchups where she is sorely needed in. I haven't been playing Goblins in a long time, but this seems like it could be an effective boarding strategy to help the matchups that can be pretty abysmal otherwise.

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Yeah, I tested them and they were not nearly as good as they appear to be:

If you want sometrhing against Show and Tell you are better of with Confusuion in the Ranks.
Apart fromn that you'll never find yourself boarding them in - simply because they dont have enough impact in other MUs. Sorcery-Speed is bad against Batterskull. If you want to use O-Ring as a removalspell its just to expensive for that. You might indeed save SB slots with Oblivion RIng, but then again you dont really improve any MU wth it.

Ghostway with even two ringleaders or matrons out would crush damn near any opponent you use it against, but I think you're simply improving good matchups at that point (UW control). Sure, it works against 'clasm and -x/-x effects, but those typically hit a turn before Ghostway goes off. It also kills our tokens.

I like Steely Resolve, but it causes a times-old problem this deck has always had: sacrificing power and threat density for resilience. Aether vial gets around this rule because it lets us drop threats in tandem with our mana restrictions. My philosophy when playing the angry green men is that they're all dispensable and if they're not hitting something then they're not doing their job right, and if you have a non-vial, non-land card in hand it better have legs. SB tech obviously varies, but all the stuff I run can be dropped as I go with little mana requirements.

My current SB:
3 Pyrokinesis
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic
2 Anarchy
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Stingscourger (1 main)

I'm working towards the green splash eventually, though. K-grips will replace one p-blast and the anarchy's. I realize I'm soft to storm combo without chalice, but my reasoning is that Thalia decks (Death & Taxes, Maverick) are keeping them out in the cold for a while. On the note of Thalia: she's super-clutch with a mother of runes to back her up, but in this deck she's a no-go. Were she a goblin, I think she's automatically be 4-of, but the issue now is that she disrupts our synergy with the other cards (GRL, Matron) and her effect is not as powerful. Against RUG, I've managed to kick Canadian's ass back over the border many times simply by burying them in card advantage and uncounterable removal. Seriously, with 3-4 MWM and 3-4 GPI in the deck, no Delver will touch you and no goyf or goose will get through. Not to mention SGC and Sharpshooter's damage.

I'm currently fluctuating numbers of "utility goblins" in my list as well. I have 22 lands-- 10 Snow-Covered Mountains, 4 Port, 4 Waste 4 Cavern. I am running the Core, sans 1 SGC. That leaves 17 slots. Thus, I have:

4 GPI
4 MWM
3 Piledriver

1 Chieftain
1 Krenko
1 Prospector
1 Sharpshooter
1 TukTuk
1 Stingscourger

Any thoughts? Currently trying to find the right balance of Stingers and MWMs; the former obviously good for fatties, the latter better for Goyfs and the like. I also picked up a few Winstigators, but idk how I feel about running them.

Finally, someone mentioned something about humility earlier: it affects all creatures in ALL zones, including your hand, library, graveyard and exile. Emrakul never cycles your library from your yard; GPI can't be cycled to burn a dude. Misthollow Griffin doesn't work with food chain more than once.

Any thoughts? Currently trying to find the right balance of Stingers and MWMs; the former obviously good for fatties, the latter better for Goyfs and the like. I also picked up a few Winstigators, but idk how I feel about running them.

I run main deck 3 MWM, 2 Stingers, 2 Piledrivers and 2 Winstigators as my 2 drops. Winstigators do cool things with matron and then drop whatever you fetch for the second of the double strike. I found 2 Winstigators enough, so i normally have goblins to drop. Also winstigators have helped me mulligan less as i have 6 lackey effects. I back up winstigators with removal to help them get through, 3 tarfire, 1 mogg fanatic, 4 Gempalms, 2 stingers. i also play chieftains.

if you play winstigators it also makes it harder to run rishadan ports.

effectively you have to play a more aggro mono red build to run winstigators. Perfect to support Krenko actually!

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Finally, someone mentioned something about humility earlier: it affects all creatures in ALL zones, including your hand, library, graveyard and exile. Emrakul never cycles your library from your yard; GPI can't be cycled to burn a dude. Misthollow Griffin doesn't work with food chain more than once.

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Asked on the Rules thread, because thought this was weird. So:

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Originally Posted by Koby

Humility
Enchantment, 2WW
All creatures lose all abilities and are 1/1.

Creatures are only creatures on the battlefield. In all other zones, they are creature cards. Note the distinction.

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

I realize I'm soft to storm combo without chalice, but my reasoning is that Thalia decks (Death & Taxes, Maverick) are keeping them out in the cold for a while.

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Yesterday in the Dutch Open National Championship, 7 decks in top 16 were Storm combo. Don't count too much on Storm being cold to the stuff out there right now. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Ghostway with even two ringleaders or matrons out would crush damn near any opponent you use it against, but I think you're simply improving good matchups at that point (UW control). Sure, it works against 'clasm and -x/-x effects, but those typically hit a turn before Ghostway goes off. It also kills our tokens.

I like Steely Resolve, but it causes a times-old problem this deck has always had: sacrificing power and threat density for resilience. Aether vial gets around this rule because it lets us drop threats in tandem with our mana restrictions. My philosophy when playing the angry green men is that they're all dispensable and if they're not hitting something then they're not doing their job right, and if you have a non-vial, non-land card in hand it better have legs. SB tech obviously varies, but all the stuff I run can be dropped as I go with little mana requirements.

My current SB:
3 Pyrokinesis
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic
2 Anarchy
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Stingscourger (1 main)

I'm working towards the green splash eventually, though. K-grips will replace one p-blast and the anarchy's. I realize I'm soft to storm combo without chalice, but my reasoning is that Thalia decks (Death & Taxes, Maverick) are keeping them out in the cold for a while. On the note of Thalia: she's super-clutch with a mother of runes to back her up, but in this deck she's a no-go. Were she a goblin, I think she's automatically be 4-of, but the issue now is that she disrupts our synergy with the other cards (GRL, Matron) and her effect is not as powerful. Against RUG, I've managed to kick Canadian's ass back over the border many times simply by burying them in card advantage and uncounterable removal. Seriously, with 3-4 MWM and 3-4 GPI in the deck, no Delver will touch you and no goyf or goose will get through. Not to mention SGC and Sharpshooter's damage.

I'm currently fluctuating numbers of "utility goblins" in my list as well. I have 22 lands-- 10 Snow-Covered Mountains, 4 Port, 4 Waste 4 Cavern. I am running the Core, sans 1 SGC. That leaves 17 slots. Thus, I have:

4 GPI
4 MWM
3 Piledriver

1 Chieftain
1 Krenko
1 Prospector
1 Sharpshooter
1 TukTuk
1 Stingscourger

Any thoughts? Currently trying to find the right balance of Stingers and MWMs; the former obviously good for fatties, the latter better for Goyfs and the like. I also picked up a few Winstigators, but idk how I feel about running them.

Finally, someone mentioned something about humility earlier: it affects all creatures in ALL zones, including your hand, library, graveyard and exile. Emrakul never cycles your library from your yard; GPI can't be cycled to burn a dude. Misthollow Griffin doesn't work with food chain more than once.

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I can tell u 1 thing, combo is not nearly as dead as u seem to think it should be. Just last sunday we had the open dutch legacy champs. about 120 people showed up and we had 4 storm combo decks top 8 with some more in T16. One ended up second losing to RIP/Energy field/helm control/combo with Counter-Top main.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Yesterday in the Dutch Open National Championship, 7 decks in top 16 were Storm combo. Don't count too much on Storm being cold to the stuff out there right now. :wink:

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shit happens when you don't read the last replies.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Yesterday in the Dutch Open National Championship, 7 decks in top 16 were Storm combo. Don't count too much on Storm being cold to the stuff out there right now. :wink:

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I realize that Storm is much bigger across the pond (I have a storm buddy who was super ecstatic when Storm took GP Ghent). However, at least in NE America, Storm and its kin is a non-issue when making sideboards up this way, since maybe one or two ever show up at the monthlies. Even at larger events, I find midrange decks far more common.

my current problem is finding a good list to deal with other decks, esp. equipment. I know it's silly, but has Manriki-Gusari ever been considered as an answer to Jitte/Batterskull?

Further, has Pithing Needle been tested for the sideboard? Is it any good for this archetype?

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

I'm still riding the "no interaction"-train. Since our deck is already good at fighting countermagic I was looking for something that makes our goblins removal-proof.

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It would be probably really difficult to steal place in our deck to make goblins removal-proof, but there are some goblins that can do this job quite well: i mean Mad Auntie and Goblin Chirurgeon . I prefer the chirurgeon because mad auntie can't regenerate itself, and because it has the same advantages of Skirk Prospector : can be useful as dredge hate and can defeat jitte/batterskull. Also Wort, Boggart Auntie can be a great help against removals. Surely the cards mentioned by GoboLord are stronger than these, but these are goblins and can be included in our deck without too many problems.
About Steely Resolve , here is its black counterpart : Cover of Darkness . It could be a very good surprise card against creature-based decks.

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Originally Posted by raindrainxi

I know this is in the To-be-tested section of the primer, but has somebody actually tested Battle Squadron against decks packing Moat? I'd test it in coming playtests but couldn't find a copy so I'll proxy. To those who did, can you please share your opinion? Thanks.

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To fight Moat, apart from Battle Squadron, Siege-Gang ,Sharpshooter,Kiki-Kiki/Lightning Crafter combo, there is Skirk Fire Marshal . I don't think i would use it instead of a siege-gang, but consider that combined with Mogg Maniac it can deal 20 direct damages to an opponent (ten dealt by the fire marshal, and ten dealt by mogg maniac who has received ten damages).

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

I realize that Storm is much bigger across the pond (I have a storm buddy who was super ecstatic when Storm took GP Ghent). However, at least in NE America, Storm and its kin is a non-issue when making sideboards up this way, since maybe one or two ever show up at the monthlies. Even at larger events, I find midrange decks far more common.

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True. In the States people seem to be reluctant to play Storm. Never understood why that's the case anyway, but still.
Issues with equipment can be resolved upon by Tuktuk Scrapper and sideboard Krosan Grips. That, to me, seems the best way to deal with them.

Here wondering how goblins went in the Dutch nationals. *cof*GoboLord*cof*.
Guessing there was too much Storm, and we are not preparing ourselfs all that much for them nawadays. =/

There wer about 8 players with goblins at the event, but they were nowhere near the higher tables after round 3/4.

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Further, has Pithing Needle been tested for the sideboard? Is it any good for this archetype?

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I've had a couple of Pithing Needle in my board lately...but unfortunately I've not drawn them. My thoughts are that they act as a catch-all for some of the things we have a problem with like:

Vedalken Shackles
Sensei's Divining Top
Planeswalkers
Mother of Runes (removal is better since Mav has Pridemage)
Pernicious Deed
Equipment (in a pinch anyway)

etc.

The trick is really knowing what to name...

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Originally Posted by Davran

Mother of Runes (removal is better since Mav has Pridemage)

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I'd board out Pridemage vs Goblins, it does nothing relevant.

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

About Steely Resolve , here is its black counterpart : Cover of Darkness . It could be a very good surprise card against creature-based decks.

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This is a fine post.

Cover of Darkness
Enchantment B1
As Cover of Darkness enters the battlefield, choose a creature type.
Creatures of the chosen type have fear. (They can't be blocked except by artifact creatures and/or black creatures.)

A long while ago it occured to me that the Goblins sideboard has historically made the deck more disruptive and defensive, NOT more aggressive and faster. Every G2 your deck will be slower than it was G1, because you've boarded out goblins that deal damage for disruptive cards that slow down your opponent. Cover of Darkness is probably the first card I've seen suggested that just says "Fuck this. Let's race." I really like it.

Now the question is whether it's good enough for Legacy. The fact that it's asymmetrical is Awesome. Your Goblins have Fear. Your opponents' non-Goblins don't. The fact it's 2cc is also super cool. It lets you play T1>Lackey, T2>CoD>SGC and you have chump blockers ready for next turn. CoD is an Enchantment, so it is going to be difficult for your opponent to remove once you've stuck it. Probably the best thing about CoD is that it makes those awkward combat scenarios favorable to you. It's also worth noting that B probably has the worst creature base in Legacy, meaning CoD will seldom be a dead card against a deck packing mostly B creatures.

Now on to the weak point of the card: Affinity and Batterskull. Fear doesn't get past artifact creatures or black germ tokens. That might be a fairly narrow problem, but it's a very real problem. In order to race a BS you need to keep it from blocking. And in order to race Affinity you actually need to get through their wall of T1 0cc dorks. CoD won't help you there.

I think the next time I run a B splash I'll try a few Cover of Darkness in the sideboard.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

And in order to race Affinity you actually need to get through their wall of T1 0cc dorks. CoD won't help you there.

I think the next time I run a B splash I'll try a few Cover of Darkness in the sideboard.

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Pyrokinesis solve the affinity problem =]
I'd like to hear if you actually get to play with CoD. It does seem awesome.