[Deck] Merfolk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SlopeeJ

I def disagree with this, not sure what kind of Fish deck you are running but Merfolk is always the aggro deck with enough disruption to slow them long enough to Swim through. You wanna keep dropping Lords and swing..

I cut Cursecatcher from my list, there is to much aggro and he isn't even that great in the match ups where he is suppose to be good.

---

From my testing I have a higher win rate with an opener with multiple counters without much pressure vs. a hand with only guys. Most of the time they cannot beat a triple lord draw, but nobody really can, so it isn't really relavant.

Dropping Cursecatcher would be better if you have a good way to be using your first turn other than Vial - since Merfolk depends so much on tempo to win games, you really need to be advancing the game somehow, even if it is just Brainstorming, or leaving a mana up to Stifle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tacosnape

In crazy god hand land, sure. Opening with Force, Daze, AND Vial will indeed give you a fair chance against anything in the format.

That said, If you Force the Hierarch, GW isn't going to just try to drop the Survival. They'll bait you with some other 2-drop, like Tarmogoyf, or worse, drop a Second Hierarch. Then you're almost required to Daze the Goyf or face a big green beater with a useless counter, then Survival hits. That's kind of bad. And I'm sure most decks don't mind taking out a Force of Will for one green mana.

Alternately, if you're facing U/G and didn't drop Cursecatcher, they'll just drop the Survival next turn and Force/Daze your Daze. Then, barring a lot of mana screwing powers, you lose.

Your best matchups come when they just don't -draw- a Survival. Then sometimes, depending on the list, it's a lot easier to just outtempo mid-power green menaces.

---

The reason I would Force the Heirarch is much larger than just powering up your Daze. (Assume we are talking about U/G survival)

Assume the situation of them playing Heirarch turn 1, and they have Survival. When Survival comes online, they need to activate it 6 total times to get 4 Vines and put them into play, then again if they want them to fly. Until they get to 6 - nothing they do is very relavant. Using Force on the Heirarch will mean that they will idealiy have Survival turn 3 with one mana up (1 total activation), then three more activations the next turn (4 total activations), then will finally get the Vines into play on turn 5. They can then beat for 16 or so. This means that they will definately NOT win until turn 6, assuming you do not disrupt them in any way after the Force.

Now, take the situation of them resolving the Heirarch and having Survival. Turn 2 will be a Survival - which you will Force, and they will probably Force/Pierce/Daze you back (or else they would be playing Goyf/Mongrel). The next turn gets them 3-4 activations, then they hit for 16 on turn 4, win turn 5.

Forcing the Heirarch in this case buys an entire turn, and with Merfolk that turn just happens to be the one you need to kill them if you have a Lord of Atlantis + 2 creatures draw. It also sets you up to fight them a LOT better if they don't have the Survival.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

From my testing I have a higher win rate with an opener with multiple counters without much pressure vs. a hand with only guys. Most of the time they cannot beat a triple lord draw, but nobody really can, so it isn't really relavant.

Dropping Cursecatcher would be better if you have a good way to be using your first turn other than Vial - since Merfolk depends so much on tempo to win games, you really need to be advancing the game somehow, even if it is just Brainstorming, or leaving a mana up to Stifle.



The reason I would Force the Heirarch is much larger than just powering up your Daze. (Assume we are talking about U/G survival)

Assume the situation of them playing Heirarch turn 1, and they have Survival. When Survival comes online, they need to activate it 6 total times to get 4 Vines and put them into play, then again if they want them to fly. Until they get to 6 - nothing they do is very relavant. Using Force on the Heirarch will mean that they will idealiy have Survival turn 3 with one mana up (1 total activation), then three more activations the next turn (4 total activations), then will finally get the Vines into play on turn 5. They can then beat for 16 or so. This means that they will definately NOT win until turn 6, assuming you do not disrupt them in any way after the Force.

Now, take the situation of them resolving the Heirarch and having Survival. Turn 2 will be a Survival - which you will Force, and they will probably Force/Pierce/Daze you back (or else they would be playing Goyf/Mongrel). The next turn gets them 3-4 activations, then they hit for 16 on turn 4, win turn 5.

Forcing the Heirarch in this case buys an entire turn, and with Merfolk that turn just happens to be the one you need to kill them if you have a Lord of Atlantis + 2 creatures draw. It also sets you up to fight them a LOT better if they don't have the Survival.

---

Sure, force the noble. I'll counter your important spell with my own force (U/G) and slow you down or beat you with Knights (G/W). Then 4 veggies kill you.

New to merfolk and was looking at some other possible cards, do you guys think this deck could accommodate

- Merrow Commerce (Could be useful?)
- Tideshaper Mystic / Reef Shaman (Works with Merfolk Sovereign)
- Stonybrook Banneret (A blue Goblin Warchief?, well not really...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ryl417

New to merfolk and was looking at some other possible cards, do you guys think this deck could accommodate

- Merrow Commerce (Could be useful?)
- Tideshaper Mystic / Reef Shaman (Works with Merfolk Sovereign)
- Stonybrook Banneret (A blue Goblin Warchief?, well not really...)

---

Most of these cards are either horrible or have been refuted before.

Merrow Comerce doesn't do anything on its own, and even when it works wonders, it's still only half-good. Hence, it's not worth it.

Tideshaper Mystic / Reef Shaman are both worse than Tidal Warrior, because he can manascrew them in the beginning of the game or he could swing later on when you don't need to enable LoA.

Stonybrook Banneret is busted on paper, but when you realize much of the deck costs either U or UU, and we use Vial for most of the creature casting, it's just a 1/1 with Islandwalk for 2.

Ahh I see it now, thanks for the insight :)

I see you guys are discussing alternate 1cc drops.

1 .Cosi's Trickster has been suggested and is warranted if there are enough shuffle effects in the meta (I'd say fetches aren't enough to warrant inclusion).

2. Manta Riders are also an interesting idea now that Coralhelm flies. The evasion could come in handy against decks that don't run islands and have a wall of blockers.

3. Tidal Warrior is good if you're going the mana denial route along with stifle and as an enabler for LOA.

4. Skywatcher Adept is something to consider as well. I was one of the first to include coralhelm in the deck and accept the level strategy as viable, but this guy is a bit pricey in his level costs. He may not be worth it, but he is quite aggressive in the mid-late game which is something curse catcher has always lacked.

Food for thought.

Of the 4 I favour Cosi and Tidal, but what would the potential cards to cut for them? Not feeling Skywatcher as much as Coralhelm, Coralhelm seems a lot easier to level up?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ryl417

Of the 4 I favour Cosi and Tidal, but what would the potential cards to cut for them? Not feeling Skywatcher as much as Coralhelm, Coralhelm seems a lot easier to level up?

---

He definitely is. Skywatcher is my least favorite as well, but it has the most mid-late game potential. It is quite the investment and I was simply comparing it to curse catcher. 1 helps us in the combo match up and the other helps us in the aggro match up.

Personally I don't think curse catcher should go, even in an aggro meta. It just scares people too much.

If I must choose to replace him though I'd probably go for the Manta Riders simply for the air beats which could make the difference.

Take note that Waterfront Bouncer is a Merfolk Spellshaper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Assume the situation of them playing Heirarch turn 1, and they have Survival. When Survival comes online, they need to activate it 6 total times to get 4 Vines and put them into play, then again if they want them to fly. Until they get to 6 - nothing they do is very relavant. Using Force on the Heirarch will mean that they will idealiy have Survival turn 3 with one mana up (1 total activation), then three more activations the next turn (4 total activations), then will finally get the Vines into play on turn 5. They can then beat for 16 or so. This means that they will definately NOT win until turn 6, assuming you do not disrupt them in any way after the Force.

Now, take the situation of them resolving the Heirarch and having Survival. Turn 2 will be a Survival - which you will Force, and they will probably Force/Pierce/Daze you back (or else they would be playing Goyf/Mongrel). The next turn gets them 3-4 activations, then they hit for 16 on turn 4, win turn 5.

Forcing the Heirarch in this case buys an entire turn, and with Merfolk that turn just happens to be the one you need to kill them if you have a Lord of Atlantis + 2 creatures draw. It also sets you up to fight them a LOT better if they don't have the Survival.

---

Wait, so the players that you play against don't go for their vines until they have all 4 in the yard? Really? When knowing they're playing against an aggressive aggro/control deck, most of the players I know will go out of their way to grab up even 2 vines and start throwing the plants at your face, even if it is turn 4. Turn 3 survival for a vine, then turn 4 vine for vine, vine for rootwalla, rootwalla madnessed for 0cc artifact critter, play critter, attack your face for 8 at least. They're not going to wait until they're "lethal" turn 5 or 6 to get their Vines.

hi, i have a question. why is our manabase composed of wasteland and mutavault as opposed to goblins' wasteland and rishadan port? has anyone tested a manabase composed of wasteland and rishadan port in merfolk? thanks guys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bloodbrother

hi, i have a question. why is our manabase composed of wasteland and mutavault as opposed to goblins' wasteland and rishadan port? has anyone tested a manabase composed of wasteland and rishadan port in merfolk? thanks guys.

---

Because we're not as aggressive as goblins and need the extra manland as well as we need to play under standstill well aside from aether vial.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tru3z3rox

Because we're not as aggressive as goblins and need the extra manland as well as we need to play under standstill well aside from aether vial.

---

And 16 lords is pretty nice with mutavault.

Played in a local tournament today, dissappointing 2-2 result, used this list:


3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
7 blue fetch
3 Underground Sea
3 Island

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merrow Reejerey

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
3 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus

Lost round 1 to Belcher, first game he stormed for 14 Goblins first turn, second game he played a turn 1 Xantid Swarm with Daze backup. :( Shitty insects. Never saw a FoW in either game, although to be fair I should've taken a mulligan in the first game, since I knew my opponent was probably playing Belcher.

Round 2, I was paired up against my friend who was playing RG Sligh, and he drew a godhand while I managed to draw all four Merfolk Sovereigns while not being able to cast a single one due to my awesome Island, Wasteland, Wasteland manabase. I lost game 2 in a similar fashion, after I failed to find an answer to a 7/7 Quirion Dryad within the top 3 or 4 cards. When I lost, my opponent had just Fireblasted, leaving only a Forest in play. The top card on my libary was a Submerge :(

It's easy to blame bad draws, but me and my friend played another game after the tourney, and though he probably didn't take it as seriously, I got a better draw and showed him what's what 2-0.

Round 3, I won against Merfolk mirror. We played the same list, but I had Merfolk Sovereign and Spell Piece and he had Standstill and Vendilion Clique. I got a sick lord draw in game one, he won game 2 on the back of a Commander and I did the same in game 3. The mirror-match sucks :(

Round 4, I faced Goblins and managed a win in game one after another sick lord draw and he drew blanks two turns in a row. Game two he manages to swing with Warren Instigator plopping down Goblin Chieftain and Siege-Gang Commander. Yeah! In game 3, I finally draw some hate, stick an Engineered Plague and the rest is academic.

Overall, I'm not satisfied with how the list worked out. Granted, I faced some bad matchups (RG, Goblins), and there were just one nice squishy CB deck in the tournament, which I never faced. Drawing all four Sovereigns in game one against the RG Sligh player is abyssmal, and I'm thinking about cutting one for something cool. I also want to go back to my white splash, and play StPs again.

Also, Spell Pierce was crap all day, only 2 in the maindeck with no way to draw into them bar Silvergill is sub-par. I'd much rather have more creatures, like Waterfront Bouncer, or Kira, or hell, even Wake Thrasher.

As I said, a dissappointing result, but I might bring the deck to another tournament later this month. Probably not the same 75 though :P

I'd have to agree with you. I tried the black splash and absolutely hated it. I even tried running tempo cards like Snuff Out in the main, but nothing could get me to like it. I much prefer mono u, U/W, or U/R. E Plagues are quite slow and pretty narrow to splash for unless you have a TON of tribal in your meta.

where can i find a matchup analysis for merfolk?

I came second on saturday in a local tournament to win an unlimited volcanic island with the below list.

My List:
4 AEther Vial
4 Standstill
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Echoing Truth

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey

4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
12 Island

SB
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Spellpierce
1 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Stifle
3 Hydroblast
2 Submerge
1 Hibernation

Mini Report can be found here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Workshop-event

-Cheers-

so i was wondering with the format being so fast about adding in noble hierarch to the main deck. before i get torn apart here are some reasons for this
1. greatly increases speed to allow merrow on turn 2 then playing other merfolk and doing untap or tap tricks
2. since we run 8 colorless lands it really helps getting the double blue for coralhelm or lord alot of times you dont see that second blue right away
3. allows you to play it on turn 1 if you dont have vial then stand still next turn with spell pierce back up and or daze with out losing tempo
4. you can also play it turn one daze and still on tempo and not time walking yourself
5. allows mutavault to become bigger if swinging under standstill alon
6. allows coralhelm to fly above for more damage
7. throws your opponent of if you go trop hierarch they might think you are running bant or a survival build and can dodge a cabal therapy
8. opens board options grip natures claim etc stuff good against a jitte or engineered plague

the stuff i know that it can be bad for are cant pitch to force, not a merfolk obviously, and you would probably have to cut sursecatcher or just skim down some cards

but in testing it has been great and really givin me the edge and the pros outway the cons

I like how one of your arguments for Noble Hierarch is that adding a second color will make the mana better.

I've been testing a monoU list for a while now, after failing hard with Ub. So far, I haven't missed the black splash once, not even against Goblins. Hibernation is almost as good as Perish, and even better against some decks, Engineered Plague is slow, and I like the fact that monoU makes it possible to run Standstill without stretching the list too much - something that would be tough with a Uw or Ur build.

MonoU it is for now.