Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
+ information is tracked over time and is "stationary"; you can literally witness this deck's evolution through the years
- while I'm not aware of any size limit on a discord post, posts relating to legitimate discussion "feel" shorter to me.
The exact same content can be provided on something like Discord. Except you would pin a post or posts and if content is more easily contributed to that way, with a Google Document or similar for reports and an actual primer. That post could very well link directly here actually. Discord is also much more accessible and available than mtgthesource.com (eg. no HTTPS here, not mobile-friendly, mentioning people is actually difficult, so is linking cards).
Though Discord is not exaclty meant to hold long posts like you mentioned, but rather links to a more adapted support eg. spreadsheets for data and statistics, plain documents for reports.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
+ posts can cover multiple responses and link to older material.
- responses can be very quickly buried into irrelevance.
Yeah this can be an issue when no policing. Though across all IM tools I've been using both for hobbies and work, the rooms are supposedly self-corrected and on-topic trumps all off-topic. It gets pretty easy to keep relevant information easy to find when channels are created and reserved accordingly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
searching for specific things feels very difficult (could just be a user issue, I'm new to discord)
Yeah could be, I find it much easier to search on Discord myself ^^ Keywords do help when searching for instance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
I have no issues with lots of text that detail interactions or lines of play and I enjoy comprehensive answers behind certain lines of play or card selections. I feel like it makes me and other readers of the thread better players.
Wall of texts are fine, especially when the author takes the time to properly indent or present with the rich text available here :-) I wasn't exactly offering Discord as a way of replacing the work done here. But more as a complementary way of contributing, more approchable possibly. Easier to find help etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
@ Hushbringer: Someone (Fox?) highlighted it's potential use (and atrocious art) when it was spoiled a few pages ago. Not sure if anyone's actively tested Hush, but Scroll of Fate seems to have become the enabler of choice for cheating in Noughts. My gut reaction is that I could see it being run out of the side as hate versus decks that are heavily reliant on triggers (ala Ichorid), as opposed to enabling our 12/12s. I think I'd rather see Vision Charm or Trickbind in my UW list before Hush.
I was thinking about it because outside Ichorid there are much more popular ETB triggers where I play eg. Flickerwisp, SFM, Snapcaster Mage mainly. The first 2 are brutal against us. But other candidates might be more suited, because they are blue for instance, help flip Delvers, or simply more versatile.
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AngryBacon
@Rood Sorry if this was answered already, thread is getting long and not exactly search-friendly ^^ Just re-watched some older game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbLOqEGTNm0. Any particular reason you didn't turned FiDo face up in G1? You Manifest it around 2 minutes in.
On the subject of practicality, have you all considered a Discord server? I for one think 2 different mediums are more useful and spread to more people, if you want to welcome more people that is. I find direct message easier to manage and to tidy than a 200+ pages forum :-)
On an unrelated note, if some of you are still playing with white, have you thought about Hushbringer?
I think I was trying to prevent a K command blowout. I figured he had snap or k command and i had no answer
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Hushbringer isn't very good as it offers opponents windows of interaction. Before Scroll my deck used Tocatli and that was only b/c I had 1x Aether Vial (and E-Tutors) to create the uninteractive window that Scroll more easily replicates. If Hushbringer were hexproof (or a noncreature enchantment) I would have considered it, but even in the board it's worse than Torpor Orb (Karn wish target). I would rate Hushbringer under Jeskai Infiltrator in terms of positively advancing the engine in a reasonably reliable way. The other issue with Torpor Orb effects, in the maindeck, is that in a small subset of matches it enables opponents to steal Dreadnoughts from our top of deck [Helm] and graveyard [Reanimate].
What we're really waiting to see is a not-creature Torpor Orb that nullifies triggers from creature ETB + casting spell triggers + creature abilities cannot be activated. The leaving the battlefield trigger prevention doesn't really matter. Alternatively a Torpor Orb land would also be acceptable.
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AngryBacon
/snip discord advantages
If you have a server that you could PM me the link to, I'd be more than happy to join. :) It's more a question of familiarity and nostalgia that I stick with forums and I don't see myself stopping from using the Source. It's definitely a callback to the dark days of places like MTG Salvation and SmashBoards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AngryBacon
I was thinking about it because outside Ichorid there are much more popular ETB triggers where I play eg. Flickerwisp, SFM, Snapcaster Mage mainly. The first 2 are brutal against us. But other candidates might be more suited, because they are blue for instance, help flip Delvers, or simply more versatile.
I think if we wanted something maindeck to stop those shenanigans, Torpor Orb is probably still the go to, being the "hardest" to remove. I'm sure more experienced pilots have better answers though.
EDIT: Fox covered it already. The other things that stop ETBs are creatures, exclusively W:
Hushbringer
Hushwing Gryff
Tocatli Honor Guard
or costly: Humility
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
2-2 at the local tonight. Don't know exact attendance, but close to 25 people I think. Ran the same list that I did two weeks ago.
Round 1 vs UW Stoneblade (W, 2-1):
G1: On the play, we both mull to 6. Though he StP's my early Nought, a flood of 2/2s and an accompanying SCM is too much to handle, and his SFMs eat my own StP's.
+1 Pithing Needle, +1 ETutor. -1 Supreme Verdict, -1 Standstill [i](in hindsight should have added Ashiok, maybe for one of the Small Teferis)
G2: An absurd game. Early turns are land -> go, until we get into a counter war over my small Teferi. He wins out on the back of Flusterstorm, and is eventually able to control the game. He manages to stick TNN and it wields both Batterskull and Jitte, and I scoop.
G3: An early Nought once again proves to be the deciding factor, forcing an early FoW out of him. He has no counter for the Scroll, and I ride the 12/12 to victory.
Round 2 vs Mystic Forge Combo (?) (L, 0-2):
A match where knowledge was sorely lacking; I literally had never even heard of this. I lose G1, despite forcing him to break 3 Standstills. I can't find Karn to shut off his artifacts, and he's eventually able to pump out Karn first, fetching Lattice to lock me out.
+1 Pithing Needle, +1 Etutor, +2 Flusterstorm +1 EE. -2 Standstill, -2 Supreme Verdict, -1 StP [i](given all the moxes and mana ramp I saw, I thought I was playing against some kind of Storm Combo. I was very mistaken, and Grafdiggers Cage, no Flusterstorms, would have been far better).
G2: There's is an early attempt to set Chalice @ 1 that I'm able to snare, and Wasteland takes care of one of his Sol Lands. He's stuck on mana for awhile, but I can't find anything to pressure with him with; no Karn, no Teferi's, no sideboarded cards. Eventually he's able to stick Mystic Forge and find the cards he needs behind a resolved Defense Grid.
Round 3 vs Imperial Painter (W 2-1)
G1: I'm on the play, and he answers my land -> go leads with Goblin Welder. I stick a T2 Nought. My attempt to counter his Blood Moon on T3 eats a REB (!). I get in once with Nought, but I have no answer for his Karn -> Ensnaring Bridge. We play land -> go for awhile, and no Factories or Scrolls show up. He's able to assemble Painter and Grindstone, and I'm done for.
+1 Needle, +1 EE, +1 ETutor, -1 Standstill, -1 Verdict, -1 Spell Snare
G2: On the play once again, and it goes similarly to G1. My early Nought is stopped cold by Bridge, but this time, I'm able to find Scroll and pump out 2/2's that are able to walk over it.
G3: A wild game. I keep a hand with no counters but two StPs. I thought I baited out enough REBs from him to safely "hardcast" Nought, but he had another REB for the Stifle. He gets stuck on 2 lands, and his Welder does a whopping 9 damage to me, before I finally find an EE the turn he drops a second one. They both get blown away and when he tries to drop Painter, I'm ready for it with StP. He sneaks in Grindstone after I stick a Scroll, but can't keep Painter alive long enough to activate it. Once again, a beatdown of Bears takes the day.
Round 4 vs DOOMSDAY Combo (!!!) (L, 1-2)
Another matchup where I just didn't know what I was playing around. Long story short, he grinds out enough counters (via Liliana, JVP) to safely stick Doomsday in both of his wins. This was a deck I'd only heard about, but just never expected to face. Ever.
+ Scroll is awesome
+ flipping 12/12s off of Manifest is awesome
+ Watching opponents sweat over which Manifest to remove is hilarious
+ Finding a place to play Legacy <20 minutes away
+ Legacy weirdness. Doomsday and Mystic Forge in one night is hilarious.
+ Paper Legacy
- I need to use Ashiok more. I've always taken searching the library as a given, and I keep forgetting she turns off SO MUCH.
- Play mistakes. Today I felt I played better, but little mistakes eventually ended up being extremely costly (forgetting Batterskull has vigilance, forgetting PW abilities can be Stifled)
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
If you have a server that you could PM me the link to, I'd be more than happy to join. :) It's more a question of familiarity and nostalgia that I stick with forums and I don't see myself stopping from using the Source. It's definitely a callback to the dark days of places like MTG Salvation and SmashBoards.
I didn't create any server no, that privilege would be yours plural. I can definitely agree that familiarity is an argument though ;-) My job makes me value practicality and progress a little more I suppose ^^.
About Hushbringer, Torpor Orb is also fine. But Deafening Silence isn't automatically better than Ethersworn Canonist in Death and Taxes for instance. Because of the clock it provides. If I were playing white, I'd at least split between the 2 if I had the room for them plural. Hushbringer forces you to play around Massacre though, which is added stress.
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
Round 3 vs Imperial Painter (W 2-1)
+1 Needle, +1 EE, +1 ETutor, -1 Standstill, -1 Verdict, -1 Spell Snare
I wouldn't side out Spell Snare, it stops Goblin Engineer, Painter's Servant, Goblin Cratermaker, Ethersworn Canonist and the copter as well if they play it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
Round 4 vs DOOMSDAY Combo (!!!) (L, 1-2)
Another matchup where I just didn't know what I was playing around. Long story short, he grinds out enough counters (via Liliana, JVP) to safely stick Doomsday in both of his wins. This was a deck I'd only heard about, but just never expected to face. Ever.
From what you say (Liliana, Jace) it doesn't look like a typical list but more of a slower approach. Closer to how it used to be long ago. Now the better list is UBR with Experimental Frenzy with either Tendrils of Agony or Jace, Wielder of Mysteries. If you look at my post history you might find a (very old and janky) Doomstill list ;-) But if you want more information on the deck and how to play it/against it, I can provide a link to the Doomsday Discord.
With your list I think I would have sided in
+1 Ashiok, Dream Render (stops fetchlands, prevents Doomsday from searching the library, prevents Doomsday to reuse cards that may have been played pre-combo)
+1 Engineered Explosives (handles his anti-hate and goblins if they play Empty the Warrens)
+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Flusterstorm (for the discard mostly)
-2 Supreme Verdict
-4 Swords to Plowshares
I'm also assuming they don't win off Tasigur or Laboratory Maniac.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
- I need to use Ashiok more. I've always taken searching the library as a given, and I keep forgetting she turns off SO MUCH.
It also stops Doomsday ;-)
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Against Stoneblade, Needle isn't really a card your deck needs to bring in. I think I'd be fine with just 1x Ashiok in (wiping their yard is usually necessary). Definitely would not cut any Teferi vs them, as you need option to knock out walkers with Factory & EoT Scroll activations; also need to be able to put them on sorcery speed C. Priests.
When you say Mystic Forge combo you do mean the turbo deck with Monolith + Voltaic Key, and no wincons in the deck right? Assuming it is, I like the boarding after you correct the Flusters. Leaving in an amount of Plow is fine (maybe 2). Their deck should pretty much die on the spot to Dreadnought early, and completely locked out by a Karn; sounds like you got unlucky.
Boarding looks fine vs Painter, but Ashiok should come in here as well to stop all the graveyard stuff. Your matchup vs DDFT should be pretty amazing (+2 Fluster, +1 Ashiok, +1 Cage, +1 E Tutor, +1 Canonist, +1 EE. -1 Verdict, -2 Plow, -2 Scroll, -1 Snare, and -1 other cut). Keeping in a few Plow in case of Xantid/LabMan seems fine, also give you access to gain 12 response to Tendrils.
Lots of good matchups for you today, 3/4 opponents' decks playing loses to Karn tribal (on top of being weak to Nought).
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I'm debating a Narset, Parter of Veils in my 75. Does anyone have any experience for how good she is? (Disclaimer: I'm on mono-blue.)
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
Your matchup vs DDFT should be pretty amazing (+2 Fluster, +1 Ashiok, +1 Cage, +1 E Tutor, +1 Canonist, +1 EE. -1 Verdict, -2 Plow, -2 Scroll, -1 Snare, and -1 other cut). Keeping in a few Plow in case of Xantid/LabMan seems fine, also give you access to gain 12 response to Tendrils.
That's the thing, I don't think that's DDFT nor DDEF. Cage will only be useful against Experimental Frenzy. Difficult to know without their list I suppose. Spell Snare hits Burning Wish, Wishclaw Talisman, Lim-Dul's Vault depending on the version but also the removal they might side against your hate.
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Eh, you can leave in Snare but you’ve already got 12 counters DDFT has to get through (and then the SCMs his build plays). If they’re not on Frenzy, then you’d want Snare over Cage yes.
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Thanks everyone (Bacon, Fox) for the feedback. Yea, I feel like I missed a golden opportunity to at least go 3-1 at a meta where I had 0 clue what to expect.
@ Fox: It was the turbo variant. I always try to avoid saying "bad luck" since it gets me away from more practical thinking like, "what should I have countered instead?"...but yea, it was awful luck :laugh:
@ DD: He won both games off of Shelldock resolving a Jace, Wielder of Mysteries. G1 he caught me with my pants down not having a counter for Doomsday. G2, was an interesting end. He managed to play around a Standstill with only two cards left in his library, while I couldn't find anything to break my own Standstill with.
These L's hurt, but it's also teaching me a lot about how to pilot the UW variant. I'm starting to see that when games go long or draws are "unlucky", something like Azcanta seriously reduces variance and finds answers. Next week, I'll probably cut the Mana Leak for Azcanta (even though it shined once again this week), and get a Serenity in the sideboard.
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Good work Crispy. Doomsday combo you absolutely must counter DD. Shelldock Isle save wasteland for. @ Safety Narset is sweet. Try her out as a 1 of MD
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rood
Good work Crispy. Doomsday combo you absolutely must counter DD. Shelldock Isle save wasteland for. @ Safety Narset is sweet. Try her out as a 1 of MD
Cool, thanks. Matchups where it seems to shine are Miracles, Grixis/4C/pile control. Where to cut? The below list is 61 cards.
2x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Dismember
2x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Cool, thanks. Matchups where it seems to shine are Miracles, Grixis/4C/pile control. Where to cut? The below list is 61 cards.
2x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Dismember
2x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
Is Gargoyle any good without Vision Charm?? Feel like it may be a stretch to turn him on. Delver might be better could shave an Island or snag.
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rood
Is Gargoyle any good without Vision Charm?? Feel like it may be a stretch to turn him on. Delver might be better
It sometimes takes a couple turns to make him active against some decks. Others, like RUG Delver for example, hit threshold on their own pretty quickly. That's why I cut down to 2 copies. You're echoing a thought that has been rattling around in my head for weeks though: it's probably wrong to cut Delver in any version of Dreadstill, even mono-blue, until a better option comes along.
Delver list:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Dismember
2x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
6x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
I cut the Gargoyles and shaved a Pierce and an Island (21 lands) to get the 4 delvers in there. There's 23 cards in there to flip Delver, which feels low. I want to cut a Standstill for a Ponder, but I saw how good they were in your test games!
Edit: I could cut a Scroll as well for the Ponder. I feel like it has to be a non-instant/sorcery card to help flip Delver naturally.
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Thats pretty close to what im on but with lightning bolts and no 21 land or narset. I have Leylines in the board RN cuz there’s 4 Hogaak at my local meta.
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
That's what I'll plan on using then, it seems solid.
Now while I have your attention...what do you think of this spicy curry?
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
4x Expedition Map
3x Dismember
4x Thespian’s Stage
4x Dark Depths
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
3x Wasteland
This deck can make a 20/20 while under a Standstill and still play a disruptive game plan. It foregoes Delver for Expedition Map, cuts Dazes (can't afford to get behind in land drops) and does a pretty good impression of Dreadstill. Why bother with a 3/2 flyer when you can have a 20/20 flyer?
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Expedition Map
Isn't Tolaria West more flexible, while it also works under Standstill and is uncounterable? Could also find Engineered Explosives or other X spells.
Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
No. You’re all over the place. Stuffing that package in doesn’t seem good.
