[Deck] The Rock

I think Maelstrom Pulse has marginal relevance due to the prevalence of tokens and the possibility of a TES/Storm uprising at the GP; combo races Counterbalance and the lack of Force creates a favourable Storm environment. Pulse is also easier to cast, considering you'll probably want to fetch BG in the first two turns, but this downside is mitigated by Deathrite Shaman. Vindicate has value in mucking basic lands (or lands in general), but I think that's marginal for right now.

I actually haven't drawn Elspeth, but the second Garruk has been kicking BUG's butt when he lands. Deathtouch Wolves assassinate Planeswalkers and dodge Liliana's -2. I miss Dryad Arbor in this matchup since you could fetch for Arbor EOT to muck their Liliana, or just to have a non-relevant creature to sac, but I've been loving Forest #2.

-Matt

Maelstrom Pulse kills Jace just like Vindicate does. Dying to tokens makes Jace moot anyways.

Really, as Matt said, the killing tokens part is a marginal benefit. I think it being easier to cast than Vindicate combined with the other small benefits do make Pulse overall more useful than Vindicate's ability to hit lands.

And I am a huge proponent of Jitte to deal with little creatures. I was just purely comparing Pulse vs Vindicate since AggroSteve was running 3 Vindicate main.

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

Maelstrom Pulse kills Jace just like Vindicate does. Dying to tokens makes Jace moot anyways.

Really, as Matt said, the killing tokens part is a marginal benefit. I think it being easier to cast than Vindicate combined with the other small benefits do make Pulse overall more useful than Vindicate's ability to hit lands.

And I am a huge proponent of Jitte to deal with little creatures. I was just purely comparing Pulse vs Vindicate since AggroSteve was running 3 Vindicate main.

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I think the only reasons you should be running Vindicate are if you're running the SFM package (meaning you're more in white), you're running Hymn to tourach maindeck, or something like that.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I think the only reasons you should be running Vindicate are if you're running the SFM package (meaning you're more in white), you're running Hymn to tourach maindeck, or something like that.

-Matt

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Even in the SFM builds, I don't like Vindicate. For me, I really like being able to cast anything in my deck off to Forest + Scrubland + X. Yes, people say well you can fix your mana with X being a Bayou or Savannah, but if you get Wastelanded, you can be wrecked. If your deck is set up to function off of Forest + Scrubland, your third land can fetch a backup Scrubland and you're fine even if you get Wastelanded.

I also think that Pulse's blowing up multiple things ability is usually much more relevant than blowing up a land with Vindicate these days. It's not like we're a dedicated LD deck, so our odds of actually mana screwing someone with it are poor.

Plus I always just feel like a waste using a spell as powerful as Vindicate on something as common as a land.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I think the only reasons you should be running Vindicate are if you're running the SFM package (meaning you're more in white), you're running Hymn to tourach maindeck, or something like that.

-Matt

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actually i am running maindeck hymn to tourach, but you are probably right that i should swap my vindicates for pulses as i am thinking of cutting hymns for more 1cmc discard.
allthough i really love vindicate for the ability to kill lands, as it offers some sort of tempoplay for us, combined with wasteland (and hymn), but without hymn that gameplan will probably not be viable anymore

thx guys for all the input

and @ dballard: u have tried zealos persecution against goblins, and was utterly disgusted by its performance, simply because it would be a worse and conditional engineered Plague.
A single time engineered plague is just horrible against goblin, as the actually have o lot of 2/2s in their deck.
When i tried zealos persecution i had the maverick and goblin matchup in mind, so i was quite satisfied at that time. Against Maverick this card is quite good, but against the goblin matchup i do not think this card is worth it, in theory it should be good, but in reality it sucks really bad.

there is another matchup i am heavily struggeling with, it is not that common of a deck but somehow i cannot figure out how to consistently beat it

Its "The Gate": Every damn card in their deck has incremental card-advantage written on it (hymn to tourach, cabal therapy, gatekeeper of malakir, dark confidant, bitterblossom, umezawa's jitte,.........

maybe you guys can help me again with this match

thx again

The Gate is a fairly uncommon deck to run into. That being said, I have actually run into it a few times!

Note that I am playing the SFM / Lingering Souls list above so my thoughts are skewed based on that.

The Gate does have a lot of incremental advantage, but being a mono black deck, there are some things they have issues dealing with, namely enchantments and artifacts. Equipment and Sylvan Library are great against them since they have a tough time dealing with it. Planeswalkers are pretty good too as they have no way to fight them other than the attack step. As always, fighting over Bob is important.

Essentially, we win the fight through our superior creatures and superior removal spells. Sure they might have Gatekeeper and Bitterblossom, but Lingering Souls outclasses both those, for example. Jitte is an absolute nightmare for them to deal with. If they have any removal for it, it'll be in the form of bad cards like Nevinyyral's Disc or Oblivion Stone.

Btw, Gate lists running Obliterator are rare but goddamn that guy is a pain to deal with.

Also, if you're playing a Goyf list and they're playing Bitterblossom, you should be doing a fist pump. +2/+2 to your Goyfs when you AD it? Hells yeah!

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

actually i am running maindeck hymn to tourach, but you are probably right that i should swap my vindicates for pulses as i am thinking of cutting hymns for more 1cmc discard.
allthough i really love vindicate for the ability to kill lands, as it offers some sort of tempoplay for us, combined with wasteland (and hymn), but without hymn that gameplan will probably not be viable anymore

thx guys for all the input

and @ dballard: u have tried zealos persecution against goblins, and was utterly disgusted by its performance, simply because it would be a worse and conditional engineered Plague.
A single time engineered plague is just horrible against goblin, as the actually have o lot of 2/2s in their deck.
When i tried zealos persecution i had the maverick and goblin matchup in mind, so i was quite satisfied at that time. Against Maverick this card is quite good, but against the goblin matchup i do not think this card is worth it, in theory it should be good, but in reality it sucks really bad.

there is another matchup i am heavily struggeling with, it is not that common of a deck but somehow i cannot figure out how to consistently beat it

Its "The Gate": Every damn card in their deck has incremental card-advantage written on it (hymn to tourach, cabal therapy, gatekeeper of malakir, dark confidant, bitterblossom, umezawa's jitte,.........

maybe you guys can help me again with this match

thx again

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Thing is, I do play much more of an aggressive Tempo game. Knights are usually swinging when they're 6/6s and deathrite seven times out of ten are draining my opponents rather than buffing me or making mana. That's why I like Vindicate, especially if I'm playing against a greedy tribal deck that thinks the one basic they have in-hand is going to get them there because it's "wasteland-proof" (this has actually helped me vs. goblins a few times now.) The issue I've had with maelstrom pulse is that I almost always end up using it on tokens, because that's what will hit the most, and Abrupt Decay/STP has taken care of everything else. Vindicate is better imo because it can hit things Abrupt Decay can't: lands and things CMC-4+.


Re: eplague vs. goblins: This isn't actually the case, however. The deck is filled with 1/1's--lackey, matron, mogg war marshal and the thousands of tokens they can crap out. Plague slows them down and is something they can't deal with unless they're splashing colors (many don't) or if they're running multiple goblin chieftains (usually no more than two) and even then they are easy to deal with.

Yes, they still have Ringleader, Warchief, Piledriver Siege-Gang and Krenko and the occasional Stingscourger, but given that they're 1/1's, you can let DRS or anyone but Bob take care of them. And if you get the miraculous double-plague versus them, you win. Period.

re: Gate: Removal for jitte is usually in the form of discard or legend-ruling them out. Red is also a common addition to the gate, and the white splash versions of the gate exist (known as the White Picket Fence, at least where I'm from). Disk and O-stone just seem bad, but make sense for the mono-versions.

Also, agreed on the +2/+2 vs BB--Super Saiyan Tarmogoyfs (i.e. 8/9) are an achievement I'd love to hit in legacy.

Hi all! Been working on an updated list (more so the board). Board is almost a carbon copy of sdmatt's. Wanted to know people's thoughts with my main and his board.

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
2 Windswept Heath
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:
1 Garruk Relentless // Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
3 Pithing Needle
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Extirpate
2 Scavenging Ooze ( may become Extripate and Gaddock Teeg #3's)

The main has been something I have developed along side Barbed Blightning. I was reading through the thread and think people are misunderstanding our version of rock/junk. It is a tempo list built quad lazier style to help with consistency. I understand some people prefer the GSZ or Stoneforge builds that are more toolboxish. This version is meant to play similar to a mix between maverick, death and taxes, and RUG. That being said our general game plan is to destroy the opponent's hand the first few turns through discard and then regroup faster than the opponent's through Dark Confidant and Goyf beats in a tempo fashion rather than control for a long game. The reason for the heavy removal is that it allows us to focus the discard on things that are hard/annoying to play through and destroy their other random jank. Just my two cents.

tldr: Dicard-Goyf-Bob-Knight-WIN

And for everything else their is mastercard (aka removal)

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I think Maelstrom Pulse has marginal relevance due to the prevalence of tokens and the possibility of a TES/Storm uprising at the GP; combo races Counterbalance and the lack of Force creates a favourable Storm environment. Pulse is also easier to cast, considering you'll probably want to fetch BG in the first two turns, but this downside is mitigated by Deathrite Shaman. Vindicate has value in mucking basic lands (or lands in general), but I think that's marginal for right now.

I actually haven't drawn Elspeth, but the second Garruk has been kicking BUG's butt when he lands. Deathtouch Wolves assassinate Planeswalkers and dodge Liliana's -2. I miss Dryad Arbor in this matchup since you could fetch for Arbor EOT to muck their Liliana, or just to have a non-relevant creature to sac, but I've been loving Forest #2.

-Matt

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I've always thought the best reason for including a Dryad Arbor was so you could block a turn 1 Lackey on the draw. That's the main reason I keep it in there, really. I don't use equipment and Deathrite Shaman is a better ramp plan, making Arbor a lot worse. But being able to keep goblins off an explosive start even for one turn can be great.

Want to ask folks if this seems ok for a removal package:

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Vindicate

I know it's a lot (ten slots) but I focus much more on board control. Generally, how many removals does everyone run? (Note: playing 3x Thoughtseize and 3x Inquisition for discard, 3x Hymn in the sideboard)

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4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Vindicate

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I'm running:

3 Swords
4 Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
+
2 Deed/EE (board)


I think we've got similar amounts of removal, and it should be fine.

-Matt

This list won the "End of the Year Weekend Legacy Cup" in Hanau, Germany last night. About 200 Players registered with a Top8 consisting of Rock, Jund, Jund, Dredge, Fowless BUG, Hightide,Goblins and Fowless BUG Delver. That means 20 copies of both Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman in the top 8.

Rock did win in the finals against Hightide (glances over to Matt ;D)

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lingering Souls
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Swamp

Sideboard

1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Plague
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

Played by Guillaume Perbet.

Man, no Knigts seems pretty ballsy to me.

Yeah it seems at first, but in a field oversaturated with Decay and Deathrite Shamans Lingering Souls was actually the better card.

I played BUG yesterday, had to play the mirror two times and whereever i looked i saw Shamans en masse.

Afterwards i did some testing egainst Esperblade and the most disturbing card from their side were either Souls or Jace.

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Originally Posted by BlackStarDeceiver

Yeah it seems at first, but in a field oversaturated with Decay and Deathrite Shamans Lingering Souls was actually the better card.

I played BUG yesterday, had to play the mirror two times and whereever i looked i saw Shamans en masse.

Afterwards i did some testing egainst Esperblade and the most disturbing card from their side were either Souls or Jace.

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Oh I don't disagree with Lingering Souls being better, I thought it was ballsy to cut the Knights over Goyfs.

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Originally Posted by BlackStarDeceiver

This list won the "End of the Year Weekend Legacy Cup" in Hanau, Germany last night. About 200 Players registered with a Top8 consisting of Rock, Jund, Jund, Dredge, Fowless BUG, Hightide,Goblins and Fowless BUG Delver. That means 20 copies of both Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman in the top 8.

Rock did win in the finals against Hightide (glances over to Matt ;D)

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lingering Souls
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Swamp

Sideboard

1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Plague
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

Played by Guillaume Perbet.

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No Knights AND no Liliana's is definately ballsy...too ballsy. It seems like a narrow field with mostly local level brews, rather than a high-roller tourney. With High Tide and TWO Jund decks in the top 8, it's settled in my mind as a towny festival. What breaks my interpretation is that it had 200 players. I'm just really surprised at the mix.

I'm not a huge fan of Lilianas myself in Junk (the BB cost is what I don't like), but 'Goyfs over Knights seems odd to me when Junk isn't really a tempo deck.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

No Knights AND no Liliana's is definately ballsy...too ballsy. It seems like a narrow field with mostly local level brews, rather than a high-roller tourney. With High Tide and TWO Jund decks in the top 8, it's settled in my mind as a towny festival. What breaks my interpretation is that it had 200 players. I'm just really surprised at the mix.

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Not at all, it was a very high level tournament with a shitload of experienced players from all over Europe. Today there was a PTQ for San Diego and a big Vintage tournament as well, so a lot of people made the trip for the weekend.

There were multiple PT competitors and some GP Top 8ers in the field, so i guess you might undervalue the strength of either Jund and/or Hightide ;)

Jund seems very good right now in the attrition wars that set up. Deathrite Esperblade was in the field as well, nearly no Force of Wills in the maindecks and still a big load of experienced Storm players (e.g. Timo Schünemannn, Christoph Alsheimer) weren't able to get the job done as easy as one might think.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

What breaks my interpretation is that it had 200 players. I'm just really surprised at the mix.

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The deck that wins any tournament more than anything is the matchups. This ballsy list may not have faced decks where Lingering Souls was bad, and just rolled everyone all the way through. Matchup luck plays a huge role in making it to the top of a tournament, not just your deck or cards you're playing. Those Storm players who SHOULD have cleaned up probably ran headlong into the Miracles players and died :tongue:

-Matt

From what i've seen there was nearly no Miracles around, Counterbalance is weak with all those Decays around and the Blade lists preferred Deathrite/Souls instead of going Hybrid.
Canadian got handed to the bottom pretty early with a big load of competent players as well. Most of them went x-3 to early to have a shot at the money and dropped out to play sideevents.

I'll give this list some time to prove itself in testing and shar my results, but Knight (even though my favourite card of the game) underperformed since Deahtrite/Decay, Liliana should be in the mix though i guess.

I think we will get a metagame breakdown early nnext year (god i hate to say this)

@ Mr. Safety: I apologize for misunderstanding, sometimes i just fail at reading ;)