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On the same subject of Cover of Darkness, not so many pages ago someone was mentioning Raging River... I wonder if that was actually tested.
I myself have a couple of Goblin War Drums at home, but it just seems too much, by costing 3. If you go to auras, in red there's Imposing Visage at 1cc, and going green there's also Canopy Cover.
True enough, though it does block and trade with a large portion of the deck and potentially live through combat on the offense too.Quote:
Originally Posted by BWM
Has anyone ever tried nevs disc in mono red goblins as a way to mass remove artifacts, enchantments and creatures. It's a bit slow at 4cc come into play tapped, but as a reset button would allow us to recover with matrons and ringleaders quicker than others.
i still can't get blood moons out of my head either, surely turning lands to basic mountains would wreck loads of other decks.
trying to come up with ideas!
Non-gobz yeah, but it's a global effect, like Goblin King.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
So this would be a terri-bad choice for the mirror.
I like Ghostway - seems like a nice option for a deck packing SGC, Krenkz, Ringleader etc.
I don't agree with it; i won a few mirrors thanks to Goblin King, and the same could be with Cover of Darkness.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
You just have to wait until you have a decent amount of goblins, possibly a Piledriver, then make all of them unblockable and go for the alpha-strike. Of course i'd prefer to side pyrokinesis in the mirror, but also goblin king-cover of darkness can be useful.
Hei, has anyone tested Serum Powder more against those unfair MU:s? I would like to hear is it worth playing because on theory it sounds great.
I played a 4 round tourney yesterday with a Rw 3 Thalia build.
2 Port
4 Waste
4 Mountain
2 Platuae
4 Cavern
1 Karakas
5 Fetch
3 Thalia
2 Piledirver
The rest standard.
SB
3 Pithing Needle
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Rest In Peace
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Seal of Cleansing
R1 Omnitell
G1 he combos out. G2 he counters my Seal of Cleansing, but when he resolves SnT it's the fatty route and Stingscourger bounces an Emrakul, and he's not able to go off again before dying. G3 I play T1 Vial, T2 Thalia. He counters the Thalia and goes for SnT again. He drops Omni, I drop Seal. Seal pops Omni when he casts a free Burning Wish. He Gets a Pyroclasm and I bash him until he clears my board, then I play some more guys (thalia #2, Matron for Piledirver) and he Wishes again, this time for Grapeshot which clears my board, but I vial in piledriver and a Warchief next turn and go to town. W
R2 Vengevine Zombies
G1 I play T1 Vial, he T1 CTs me, blanking. I T2 Wasteland his Bayou. He T2 sacs a fetch, plays a Putrid Imp, discards Vengevine, Rootwalla, bashes me. I'm able to Gempalm away his Vine T3 with a Thalia block + Gempalm, but he's able to play Carrion Feeder and Deathrite Shaman. to bring back Vine, and I'm overwhelmed pretty quickly.
I side in 4 RiP and some Pithing Needles to shut off Imp, Shaman, Carrion Feeder, Goblin Bombardment, basically all the cards that allow him to get recursion value, and I also side in a few Chalice of the Void because the vast majority of his deck costs 1.
I mull to 6 and get a decent hand with Lackey and no hate. He keeps his 7. I T1 Lackey, he T1 Putrid Imp into Vengvine, Rootwalla, swings for 4. I lose. Woof.
R3 i lost to Rug Delver in 2. G1 he blind-flips Delver T2 and I can't kill it before I die. G2 I side in RiP and draw 2 but never see a W source to cast them. Ugh.
R4 I lose to RUG Delver in 3. G1 is kinda grindy, G2 I resolve a RiP and he scoops (this is why I think this might be THE card to run for GY hate now). G3 i don't play well and lose because of it.
Thoughts:
RiP caused my RUG opponent to scoop. Had I draw one R2 against Zombardment I would have had a chance to stabilize. Yes, it is slow and requires a splash, but it's looking like RiP is going to become a real player in this format, if only because it can convince RUG to scoop. It might need to be supplemented with other hate cards, but I think it shows a lot of promise.
Seal of Cleansing was great against Omnitell.
Update Notes
November 3rd 2012
* added Rest in Peace and Cover of Darkness to "To-be-tested" cards
* added Brightstone Ritual and Chaos Warp to "Bad cardchoices"
Why list those cards if they are really that bad?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Because now and then, some people actually ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatara
LOL.
When I first got into Legacy, I was playing a burn deck - played 3x Chaos Warp, to get rid of Leyline of Sanctity etc.
I remember the first time I came up against a Show-n-Tell deck. It was bad....:laugh:
RiP is a genuine threat to quite a few decks out there, and many of them (like Dredge) suffer a massive tempo-hit. I like it.
Still not sure about Thalia though, whenever I've played it, it doesn't seem to do enough to slow my opponents' down, apart from Storm (which has usually already won anyway!)
Played in a little tourney today. There were like 20 players so it wasn't too big of a deal. I made Top 8 going 2-1-1 then lost in the Quarter Finals to the Terrible Tudor, Mean Gene Richtsmeier.
List
4 Vial Lackey Gempalm Matron Warchief Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshall, Thalia
2 Piledriver
1 Prospector, Sharpshooter, SGC, Krenko, Stingscourger, Tuktuk
6 Fetch
4 Mountain, Cavern, Wasteland
3 Plateau
1 Karakas
I cut Port before the tourney. It hadn't been pulling its weight, plus I needed more access to W sources because of my sideboard...
4 Chalice
3 Rest in Peace, Pyrokinesis
2 Seal of Cleansing, Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
I was originally going to play 4 RiP, but I felt I needed a slightly faster piece of GY hate in there as well, so I went with the Cage.
R1 Elves
G1 I was on the draw and had a Vial, Gempalm, Warchief hand... AKA too slow to get that Sharpshooter online before the Elves went buck wild. I managed to Gempalm away a Wirewood Symbiote, but he landed an Elf Lord so I couldn't use the Sharpshooter in my hand to take the game.
I sided out 3 Thalias and 3 Gempalms and a Piledriver and brought in 4 Chalice and 3 Pyrokinesis.
G2 I had a strong Vial hand, then topdecked Chalice. T2 Chalcie @ 1 put him too far behind, and I vialed in a Lackey to cheat in a SGC. Yup.
G3 I opened a starting hand of Vial, Pyro, Chalice, some lands and some gobbos. Yup. Pretty much can't lose with an opener like that. He played an elf, I played a Vial. He played another Elf. I Pyro'd them away and played Chalice @1, and that was pretty much that.
1-0
R2 BUG
G1 I kept a 1 Land hand with Lackey on the Play. I felt OK doing this because my hand had MWM, Piledriver, and Gempalm, so I had a 1 drop and was only 1 top-deck'd land away from hardcasting stuff. Well, Lackey met FoW, he played Trop> Mongoose T1. I did't draw another land for forever. Neither did he. Once I got another land he started FoWing everything I tried to resolve and Goose kept hitting me for 1 (since he was removing cards to Force, he wasn't at Threshold yet). A Goyf finally joins the fray and I lose.
I sided out 3 Thalias, Sharpshooter, Tuktuk, 1 Piledriver and 2 Gempalms and brought in 3 Rest in Piece, 3 Pyrokinesis, and 2 Chalice. RiP should ruin his day if it resolves since it takes out 2/3 of his creatures. Chalice can really slow him down since his curve is very similar to that of RUG Delver. And you gotta side out Sharpshooter, because he will never untap with an RiP in play. Ever.
G2 got real grindy. I kept him in check with MWM blocks and kept him from hitting me too much with Delver. I also tricked him into blocking a suicidal attacking goblin token with a goyf, then used a Pyro to get the last 4 damage needed to kill said Goyf. It was a pretty stupid play, but it worked. A Chalice @ 1 took him out of the game for a while, but he had Abrupt Decay to get back in the game. When I was ready to cast an RiP I attacked first. He made his blocks with Goyf and Goose and I got like 3 damage through. Then I cast the RiP, he removed his GY, and I kindly informed him that his creatures were dead. He was confused, and I pointed out that his Goose and Goyf both had 1 damage on them and 1 toughness. A turn or two later I took the game.
Time was called T1 of Game 3.
1-0-1
R3 RUG Delver
G1 I had all the Wastelands in the world but couldn't keep him off colored mana, while he was able to get Goyf and Goose going. I got a Thalia in play off of Vial, but it was too little too late. Goyf was just too strong this game.
G2 I sided out Thalia. Let me explain my reasoning behind this, because my opponent definitely said he would have left her in after the round: I resolved a Thalia and 4 Wastelands G1, and lost. Thalia doesn't stop RUG like it does Storm because RUG isn't trying to resolve 3 Spells a turn, it's only doing 1 non-creature spell and 1 creature spell. Well, Thalia doesn't stop the creature spell and the non-creature spell is only slightly slowed. I don't see Thalia as being a major threat to RUG Delver decks. You know what IS a threat to them though? RiP. I sided the same this game as I did R2, except I also took out Tuktuk for another Chalice (Tuktuk is sorta a non-issue because RUG won't bring in Jitte, since it cannot equip on a goose).
I opened on a hand with Vial, Chalice and a RiP, but no threats. I played Vial, hoping it would snag a FoW. It resolved. He played a T1 goose. I played T2 Chalice @1, also resolved. He played T2 Goyf. I played T3 RiP and it too resolved. He drew for the turn attacked me down to 17, looked at the life totals (me 17, him 20) and scooped. Between the Chalice and RiP he recognized the inevitability of the situation.
G3 I had to mull to 6 and kept a pretty mediocre 6, but it was better than an average 5. I don't recall much, but I'm pretty sure he had double 4/5 Goyfs on, like, T3. No RiP to save my ass this time.
1-1-1
R4 Reanimator
The fellow I played this round wasn't playing an optimized deck, per se. It was a little behind the curve, and I don't think he was too knowledgeable about the format. I knew he was on Reanimator, so i tried mulling to a Thalia/Karakas/Wasteland hand.
G1 I mulled to 5 and had a pretty mediocre hand, but it had a Waste and a Piledriver. Well, my opponent was clearly keeping a shaky 7, and he lead with an Underground Sea and mainphase Brainstorm. I'm OK with that. I Wasted his land and he never saw another. W
G2 I sided out Gempalms for Cage and RiP. I opened on a great hand with Vial, Matron, and Cage. He was on the play and led with nothing, just passed. What a gift! I drew and played a T1 Vial. He went Draw, discard Jin Gitaxis T2. Pretty slow. I upped Vial to 1 and cast Cage T2, which was met with FoW. Fair enough. He fetched a Swamp and Reanimated T3, dropping to 8 life. He drew his 7 cards, discarded down to 7, and passed the turn. I played a Cavern, naming Goblins, cast Matron, grabbed Stingscourger, and Vialed in Stinscourger, bouncing Jin, and saved my hand from being discarded at EOT. He couldn't recover from the bounce. W
2-1-1
I just Barely snuck into the Top 8. Just barely.
Quarterfinals - Junk/Rock/Gwb/whatever it is called
G1 Gene was pretty mana screwed, and even though I didn't have a great hand I was able to deal with his threats better than he could cast them. I took the game pretty easily. I won the turn after he finally hit his 3rd mana.
G2 I sided out Thalia (Probably a mistake) and also took out a few Gempalms (also maybe a mistake) and brought in Seal of Cleansing and Needle and Pyrokinesis. I mulled to 6 and kept a hand with Vial, Needle, and some junk. He played T1 Top. I played T1 Needle. This was probably a mistake. I should have just lead with Vial, let him spin his Top once, then Needle top T2. This would have given me a little more tempo than the route I went, which was a T2 Vial. I had pretty mediocre draws this game and couldn't get through the double E-Plague he landed, even though Seal was able to take care of one of them. Deed came down eventually to clear the board (well, My board) and that was that.
G3 was pretty similar to G2. I mulled to 6 and kept a pretty damn mediocre hand. No 1-drop or interaction for me. He lead with a T1 Land, Mox Diamond, life from the loam. He had Plague and Deed and I had neither Needle nor Seal. I missed having Chieftain which always helps against Plagues. So that sorta sucked. I didn't even get packs for Top-8ing, which seems pretty lame.
I really don't know whether I should have sided in RiP this game. He played KotR, Ooze, and Terravore, so there was a certain amount of GY reliance, but it seemed that having answers to creatures was more important than trying to make those creatures smaller. Plus, he ran SFM and equipment so that seemed like a pretty easy problem for him to work around. Then again, he also ran Life from the Loam, though it wasn't central to his strategy. Really, this is one of those MUs where all you can really hope for is a fast Goblin hand that puts on more pressure than they can deal with, so keep hoping that a Shatter-on-a-Stick Goblin gets printed soon, or just another broken-ass 1 or 2 drop.
My big question right now is whether or not Thalia is worth it. I really like the W splash for Seal and especially RiP, but siding those cards in starts to require that you side Thalia out. And Thalia seems only OK against Delver decks. Unfortunately, I don't get to playtest ever (no friends that play anymore) so I can't really get a clear idea of how much benefit she gives in these MUs. I would like to hear from some other Sourcers on this. I should probably also hop on the Maverick thread and see how they side with Thalia against Delver decks and the like.
RiP was the bomb. I got a win against BUG Delver and RUG Delver because it resolved. It is solid, very powerful, and just a beating. The only problem is that your opponent sometimes gets 2 turns before it comes down, which is why I also sided a Grafdiggers Cage to hedge that a little. Still, I really liked that cards.
@jrw1985: Really nice to see that you also came to quite similar results in playin Rw - boarding out Thalia a couple of times gainst RiP is just right in my humble opinion, although I'm playing with a little bit different sb actually:
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
2 Seal of Cleansing (you idea - had Disenchants before xD )
3 Rest in Peace
1 flexible slot - 4th Rest in Peace at the moment
3 Pyro-/Red E. Blast
with a slightly different maindeck:
4th Mogg War Marshal <-> no Stingscourger main
7 Fetch, 4 Plateau <-> just 3 Mountains and no Karakas, because it was in testing underwhelming
.... and yes, Ports seem just wrong and you really want that white source when you board in RiP. Also I had the feeling that having a red source to pay for cycling or echo where you need to stall der ground is really important - that's why not only cutting the Ports but also Karakas.
In this case my boarding plan gainst RUG is:
In:
3 Rest in Peace
3 Pyro-/Red E. Blast (as removal gainst flying Delver and forcing though RiP)
Out:
3 Thalia, Guarding of Thraben
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss or something differnt (I mean Krenko survives Rough, but is expensive for beeing in bolt-range, Piledriver is to strong to stall gainst 1/1 Mongoose, maybe the Skrik Prospektor would be the right call - what's your opinion? )
In case of Thalia I have no problem to board her out and see her as additional hate to Thorn of Amethyst gainst the storm MU. She is just flexible, but when you have something better in board and need to keep the goblin count up it's no problem to board her out. I wouldn't kick her out of the maindeck because of this reason - sometimes she just wins the first game.
My questions would be - how important is Chalice of the Void for you and why do you really play Pithing Needles in board?
I discussed cover in darkness with a friend and we came to the conclusion, that as long as there are no relevant creature decks except maverick, dread of night is just better. It improves your esperblade matchup, too, wich is normally a difficult one. Against merfolk you win anyway and you just don't want to board cover in darkness against thresh or the mirror.
I think Cover of Darkness would be a lot more appealing if it had a relevant application against Batterskull. If only the Germ wasn't Black...
However, I don't think Dread of Night is what you want either.
Pyrokenisis is just so much more flexible and not reliant on a splash.
Virtue's Ruin is what I'd play over Dread of Night in the black splash if you want to hose Maverick.
How to explain a lack of goblins in top 8 in SCG St.Louis?
We do not know how many goblin players attended the tournament. Although Goblins is a deck to beat, not many players pilot it. There are tons more of RUG, Maverick or Esper Blade decks and they have therefore more chances to go to top 8. It is just a maths thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by angel882
RiP + Energy field also hits goblins super hard... the only true solution to that is Krosan Grip since it can't be countered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
After long time playing TES I sleeved goblins once again for little tournament (23ppl) organized by me.
Dechklist:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
1 Taiga
6 Mountain
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Mogg War Marshall
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
sb:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Thalia
1 Plateau
2 Pyrolbast
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Relic of Progenitus
1. UR delver
First game I keep slow hand with vials and quick g.guide starts attacking me, at least it brought me 3 lands. After stabilizing a bit opponenet decide to throw every burn spell to my head. I killed him on 2 life.
First turn fanantic on delver saved a lot of trouble. He is trying to burn with miracles and two vortex but I attack him down to 3 and he dies to his vortex.
1-0
2. Reanimator
In first he keeps really bad hand (he probably doesn’t play much) and lackey, chieftain and piledriver end it quickly.
He thoughseizes himself in second turn to discard Iona which got removed by relic. Then I dropped Thalia and two chieftains…
2-0
3. UR delver
He started with lavamancer, so tried vial and it resolved. Then I waited to gempalm lavamancer in response to killing my lackey and eventualy stabilize with matron->ringleader->sgc.
Second game vial resolved once again. Fanatic killed annoying lavamancer and pyrokinesis hit two snapcasters. One ringleader and victory was mine…
3-0
4. Omnitell
In first I tried resist with wateland and port but burning wish for show and tell into omnisence, gg.
I mulliganed into 5 and went with lackey. He eventually SnT but i pyroblast and dobule piledriver stomp him down.
I keep good hand with lackey and thalia. First met force, second daze, nothing I could do…
3-1
5. Mono black
I don’t remember this match well …first game my lackey got killed and after some mana screw on both sides I think double chieftain ended it…
In second I fought through 3 mishras factory, breaking point was ringleader into two fanatics, sgc and matron which provided me enough goblins to kill tombstalker and bob, he died turn before drawing enginereed plague.
4-1
6. MUD
Mulligan on my side to five on draw. He just played citadel, me vial. Second turn metalworker…next turn sundering titan + wurmcoil. I manage to stablilize with mwm and piledriver threat on board, but he played chalice on both 2 and 3 and locked my whole hand.
Second game was pretty much same, metalworker into million mana and 2 wurmcoils…
4-2
Ended on fifth place in the end. Caverns are still missing and that hurt in Omnitel and MUD matchup. Thalila appeared only when my victory was only matter of time and did completely nothing, so she will stay in sideboard for now. And last, I removed krenko for fourth piledriver. I just love when I draw 2-3 copies of one card, for example drawing 3 mwm results in completely overextending enemy, 3 chieftains make your goblins really big and 3 piledrivers just creates so many „must kill“ or „must block“ situations…
Yeah Krosan Grip seems like the only reliable answer to it. Perhaps upping to 3 in the board is the right answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatara
I think REB might be alright too though, because they'll probably board out Counterbalance against us, and we want to board in REB anyways against Miracles.