[Primer/Deck] Pox

If you want to draw cards in Pox, our choices are limited.

Lands:
Geier Reach Sanitarium - Best with Chains of Mephistopheles or hellbent opponent.
Sea Gate Wreckage - Neat but not super reliable due to activation restrictions that tend to work against each other. Colorless mana makes it difficult to cast BB spells which makes it harder to empty your hand.

Artfact/Enchantments:
Bottled Cloister - Never tried it. Seems super solid when you want CA and need hand protection.
Phyrexian Arena - Might be the best non-walker option, but it is always difficult trying to justify something that does nothing the turn you cast it. Super sweet off a Ritual.
Underworld Connections - Worse than above, but can be utilized immediately for the price of 4 mana and 1 life. Able to not accidentally kill yourself but this either screams "Wasteland me!" or ties up a Swamp that you need to cast the spells you draw. Sucks on turn 3.
Waste Not - Conceptually awesome but is a lot of effort for things you can't control. Seems like a pipe dream.

Walkers:
Karn, Scion of Urza - King Karnadvantage. Ever since Karn came around I feel more confident in my deck. The 2-of draws and filters and distracts and can close out games.
Ob Nixilis, Reignited - I played Ob Nix for a little while in the board and even once or twice in the main. He does everything you want but 5 mana can be pretty hard to achieve consistently.

Spells:
Don't. As pointed out recently, Lily is going to eat your hard work.

Creatures:
Dark Confidant - Might be the only decent solution on a stick. Seen in Reid Duke sideboards.
Asylum Visitor

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

bad/unreliable/highly fragile/symmetric sacrifice effects.

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All valid points. If a creature doesn't pass the Innocent Blood test we can't play it. The exception of course is our delving Demons. Although if you need to cast IB with one of the big boi's out, he is probably outclassed by a bigger boi. Every creature in our format (save Xantid Swarm?) kills Visitor in combat. It's cute that (through Madness) it synergies with the 1st Smallpox, but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

People suggesting to play a bad, unreliable and highly fragile 3/1 creature in a deck with 8+ symmetric sacrifice effects. Classic.

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That's pretty harsh, almost rude.

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

Brotip: you never want to cast neither Innocent Blood, Smallpox nor (most of the times) any sweeper if one of those visitors is already in play and, trust me, these situations will occur. While discarding it to smallpox may be nice, every additional Smallpox you draw afterwards becomes significantly worse. In Legacy you also do not want highly conditional synergies or such but cards that are powerful on their own at any time. Visitor doesn't make that cut. Besides, there are so many cards for pox that are better at abusing symmetrical effects so it's pretty obvious that this is not what the deck needs to improve.

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I agree with almost everything you say, that's why I would not run it maindeck, but I still think he may be a valuable sideboard option.

I'm currently running 3x Dark Confidants on my sideboard because sometimes I want more aggression or card advantage. I like having Bobs as a sideboard option (and not on maindeck) because if you are siding them in, you can tweak your deck to be more suitable for creatures and avoid most of the reasons you gave, which are all valid.

Back to Asylum Visitor, he could work as a Dark Confidant replacement if, while still needing both, you value aggression more than card advantage. He's also works slight better alongside smallpox but as you said, it's really bad when he is already on the board. It should also be noted that bloodghast is better than both if you only want aggression.

You mentioned that are better cards, do any of them provide both aggression and card advantage? I would like to hear your opinion so that I could review my choices.

@naynay666
From your list I really like Karn, Scion of Urza. I've been running 2 copies on main and it's working. Aside from the card advantage, the construct tokens can also be used to close the game.

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Originally Posted by ParisFlorian

OK, Burn is not a fantastic MU, but honestly Dragon Stompy (I prefer to call it MonoRed Prison) is not that bad.
We play a lot of basics, and we have great tools to fight their creatures (Night of soul betrayal, Bridge and even Abyss). And personnally, I tuned my Pox to suit a Chalice heavy meta, using as few 1 drops as possible (2 TS, no Innocent blood, etc)

The Walkers version of Mono Red Prison is probably more difficult to fight. Pithing needle / Spyglass are our friends, but they have easy access to artifact removal (Abrade / Fiery confluence...). But this version is less played for now.

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That's fair, mine isn't tuned like that so much, but it did feel ok. I think I made a misplay in not wasting a City of Traitors when I had the chance - feels bad to waste it since it'll die anyway, but doing so slows them down a lot. Rabblemaster is very hard for us however, and they are faster so that if we don't ritual out NoSB or have the Fatal Push (i have 2x) it'll just take over.



as for card draw, Karn is really the king of it. I played 2x and was never sad to have him, and he won at least 1 game singlehandedly, while being strong in others.

@Uncle Istvan: "Aggression" and "card advantage" usually do not go together or at least not at a level of efficiency and power that is required in legacy. I think you will have to look for specific cards for these purposes. Speaking for myself, I stated numerous times in this thread that I consider Phyrexian Totem, Night's Whisper and also Phyrexian Arena the best options available for these roles. Totem somewhat alleviates monoblack's weakness against Planeswalkers, especially Jace and is a remarkably fast clock. Whisper is both card advantage and card selection/filtering, in my view it provides similiar functions which Top used to do for this deck. Arena may be debatable because it is indeed rather slow or counterproductive in some MU's but for a lot of decks it represents a serious threat (Miracles, Pile etc.).

Card advantage by asymmetrical discard is essentially the same as ca through pure draw. That's why I suggested thought - knot seer as viable in an earlier post.

Tl:dr Hymn is equal to whisper.

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Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

i mean i can give you a list, but very few decks run those cards as more than 1-2x

Here are two lists: one two



played Pox tonight, with a 7 walker list. went 1-3. beat Aggro loam of all things, which was nice. but lost to Burn, Dragon Stompy, and Deadguy Ale. That last one is an interesting matchup. Feels pretty even but it can be hard to shut down SoFI, and once it connects it's brutal. Burn and Dragons are obviously bad matchups, managed to get a game off each of them, but other than that got steamrolled.

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Thank you for ur post. I think that these lists are a bit older and arent updated for the current meta, this is why i am asking for a new one.

Pox took 2nd at the recent KMC in Japan. 90+ person event.

4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Nether Void
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Phyrexian Totem
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Ifnir Deadlands
1 Maze of Ith
1 Spawning Pool
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
9 Snow-Covered Swamp

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Bitterblossom
2 Lost Legacy
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Bloodline Keeper
1 Phyrexian Obliterator

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

@Uncle Istvan: "Aggression" and "card advantage" usually do not go together or at least not at a level of efficiency and power that is required in legacy. I think you will have to look for specific cards for these purposes. Speaking for myself, I stated numerous times in this thread that I consider Phyrexian Totem, Night's Whisper and also Phyrexian Arena the best options available for these roles. Totem somewhat alleviates monoblack's weakness against Planeswalkers, especially Jace and is a remarkably fast clock. Whisper is both card advantage and card selection/filtering, in my view it provides similiar functions which Top used to do for this deck. Arena may be debatable because it is indeed rather slow or counterproductive in some MU's but for a lot of decks it represents a serious threat (Miracles, Pile etc.).

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I like to second the praise for Phyrexian Totem, it has won me several games against opposing walkers AND provides black mana when needed. Very strong option, which gets overlooked a lot. I also play 2 Phyrexian Arena, but as stated before this is mainly due to a lack of Karn, which in theory appears stronger.

I don't like Night's Whisper in Pox. It's OK to hit land drops early game, but for 2 mana (and 2 life) I would rather play disruption or drop a permanent. Arena just feels stronger for 1 more mana, and requires removal or provides a game winning advantage.

Also, while I understand that Pox needs to be metagamed and has lots of viable options, we are far away from a common stock list. I still would like some opinions on the following points:

• Dark Ritual, yes or no? I think yes, required for explosive starts and to overcome mid-game lack of black sources
• Card draw, yes or no? I think yes, drawing off the top without card selection kills us in the long run, every time (competent Jace players will always use the fateseal on us, and it's usually game). A black Mirri's Guile would be the perfect solution
• Sinkhole, yes or no? I think no. I really like the card, it sometimes wins games in the first few turns, but most of the time it never seals the deal and most deck simply draw more than enough mana (cantrips, library manipulation, mana dorks, draw effects)
• Delve creatures, yes or no? Standard lists run Nether Spirit, Factories and Scrolls. While non-recurring creatures are anti-synergistic with our strategy, several decks are in severe trouble once a Tombstalker or Fiend hits the table. They are fast evasive clocks and dodge mana cost based removal

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Originally Posted by TLK

Pox took 2nd at the recent KMC in Japan. 90+ person event.

4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Nether Void
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Phyrexian Totem
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Ifnir Deadlands
1 Maze of Ith
1 Spawning Pool
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
9 Snow-Covered Swamp

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Bitterblossom
2 Lost Legacy
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Bloodline Keeper
1 Phyrexian Obliterator

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That's probably the 97th KMC tournament.
Hope to watch that on their youtube channel :-)

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Originally Posted by Nightfrost

\

Also, while I understand that Pox needs to be metagamed and has lots of viable options, we are far away from a common stock list. I still would like some opinions on the following points:

• Dark Ritual, yes or no? I think yes, required for explosive starts and to overcome mid-game lack of black sources
• Card draw, yes or no? I think yes, drawing off the top without card selection kills us in the long run, every time (competent Jace players will always use the fateseal on us, and it's usually game). A black Mirri's Guile would be the perfect solution
• Sinkhole, yes or no? I think no. I really like the card, it sometimes wins games in the first few turns, but most of the time it never seals the deal and most deck simply draw more than enough mana (cantrips, library manipulation, mana dorks, draw effects)
• Delve creatures, yes or no? Standard lists run Nether Spirit, Factories and Scrolls. While non-recurring creatures are anti-synergistic with our strategy, several decks are in severe trouble once a Tombstalker or Fiend hits the table. They are fast evasive clocks and dodge mana cost based removal

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i like you bringing these up - i'll weigh in as well

Dark Ritual - yes. 3-4x. most top8 lists seem to have them, and explosive starts are necessary in some matchups and valuable in all
card draw - yes. 2x Karn is my call here. night's whisper seems slow and incidental, arena seems like it will kill us (though I haven't played it) and it has poor synergy with scroll, while Karn can be timed with scroll to work better
sinkhole - no. slows them down but doesn't do anything more than that. not flexible enough
delve creatures - yes. 2x fiend is my choice. dodges all removal except swords, and contributes to the gameplan by being a lock piece as well as a wincon
totem - didn't find it exciting when i played it, but i'm prepared to be wrong.

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Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

... Burn and Dragons are obviously bad matchups, managed to get a game off each of them, but other than that got steamrolled.

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What's the consensus on Collective Brutality for match-ups like Burn?
Figure its better with the Bloodghast lists...

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Originally Posted by Nightfrost

• Dark Ritual.
• Card draw.
• Sinkhole.
• Delve creatures.

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Yes or No. I have been enjoying my time without them recently but asdfghjkl pointed out that they have been the decks putting up numbers.

Yes.

No.

Yes or No. Delve dudes are great but not 100%. Just another wincon for your meta.

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Originally Posted by streetMage

What's the consensus on Collective Brutality for match-ups like Burn?
Figure its better with the Bloodghast lists...

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I MD two Collective Brutality and love it. Wasteland is extra pitchable in this matchup even if you don't have Bloodghast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nightfrost

I like to second the praise for Phyrexian Totem, it has won me several games against opposing walkers AND provides black mana when needed. Very strong option, which gets overlooked a lot. I also play 2 Phyrexian Arena, but as stated before this is mainly due to a lack of Karn, which in theory appears stronger.

I don't like Night's Whisper in Pox. It's OK to hit land drops early game, but for 2 mana (and 2 life) I would rather play disruption or drop a permanent. Arena just feels stronger for 1 more mana, and requires removal or provides a game winning advantage.

Also, while I understand that Pox needs to be metagamed and has lots of viable options, we are far away from a common stock list. I still would like some opinions on the following points:

• Dark Ritual, yes or no? I think yes, required for explosive starts and to overcome mid-game lack of black sources
• Card draw, yes or no? I think yes, drawing off the top without card selection kills us in the long run, every time (competent Jace players will always use the fateseal on us, and it's usually game). A black Mirri's Guile would be the perfect solution
• Sinkhole, yes or no? I think no. I really like the card, it sometimes wins games in the first few turns, but most of the time it never seals the deal and most deck simply draw more than enough mana (cantrips, library manipulation, mana dorks, draw effects)
• Delve creatures, yes or no? Standard lists run Nether Spirit, Factories and Scrolls. While non-recurring creatures are anti-synergistic with our strategy, several decks are in severe trouble once a Tombstalker or Fiend hits the table. They are fast evasive clocks and dodge mana cost based removal

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The deck discussed here is the Mono B Smallpox variant, and for that one I would advice against rituals. There are two reasons for this. 1. Three! Three reasons (nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition). 1. an abundance of cheap spells that can be cast with no need for mana boost
2. an abundance of cheap spells that already are a pain to draw mid game. No need to add four more.
3. Playing a Smallpox won't destroy your mana base. Getting to four mana is no problem.

Card draw get more desirable the more weak cards you play. Don't.

Sinkhole, wasteland, Smallpox, Pox and Encroach is a nice anti-land package.
Otherwise sinkhole is, in a sense, better than wasteland because you don't lose a land drop, and tempo.
If I felt the need for hating a specific land card I would probably play sinkhole for that reason.

Delve dudes? If you like. Consider fetch lands to help cast them.

I've changed my stance on Ritual, I think it's necessary.

It's important to have some kind of permanent advantage source when you are wastelanding and smallpoxing to really wind the thumbscrews. You are priced into firing off your disruption as soon as you draw it anyway, and if you don't have anything providing advantage while you are doing this then you are just spinning your wheels and not really getting ahead at all. Unlike a typical control deck you aren't stalling into a powerful finisher because your disruption (wasteland, smallpox, LotV) limits your own access to resources. For this reason it's important to be able to play an advantage-gaining permanent on turn 1 that's unaffected by smallpox, so that when you follow it up with a Hymn or Smallpox etc you are actually pulling ahead in the game and not just trading off resources waiting to see who topdecks out of it.

I agree that in the midgame ritual isn't very good, but I think you just have to accept this trade-off (just like late Chrome Moxes are bad in the moon decks etc)

Liliana of the Veil obviously is the ideal thing to play off Ritual on turn 1 but Last Hope and Arena etc also play this role
Arena is an ok idea but I think I would play Crucible first
Karn is a good card but the difference between 3 and 4 mana is a lot simply because of Dark Ritual's textbox

With regard to delve creatures, asylum visitor etc, I think that not having anything in the deck to return with last hope is really awkward but I agree with Erdvermampfa in the sense that I think things that die to your own Smallpox/Innocent Blood is even worse. Maybe if the visitor draws at least 1-2 cards then you don't care? It has seen some play in modern

The ideal creature might be something like Shriekmaw but it's not very good as a finisher (so it doesn't really compare to the 'delve creatures') and the fact that it doesn't kill black creatures is a significant drawback
Otherwise the only thing to return that isn't affected by Innocent Blood is maybe a cycler?
The other thing about not playing creatures is that blanking your opponents removal has a significant amount of value
Something like Hypnotic Specter might seem reasonable as this kind of grindy card but if you go turn 1 Ritual Specter in 2018 there's a very high chance your opponent just untaps and bolts it

You seem to imply that CC3 permanents like Arena obligate to play D.Ritual but from my experience that's not necessarily true if your curve is right and if you have enough substantial business spells (discard, draw etc.) for the earlier turns too. The description you gave about the necessity to "get ahead" is definitely relatable but it seems like a fallacy to think this forces you to play Ritual. While there are a lot of awesome plays you can do with Ritual it probably also increases inconsistency which is something a deck like this already suffers from.

Incorporating Shriekmaw together with Last Hope seems like a pleasant idea, these creatures always have the capability to improve the S&T MU slightly. I would also not underestimate a 3/2 Fear creature as a beatstick.

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

You seem to imply that CC3 permanents like Arena obligate to play D.Ritual but from my experience that's not necessarily true if your curve is right and if you have enough substantial business spells (discard, draw etc.) for the earlier turns too. The description you gave about the necessity to "get ahead" is definitely relatable but it seems like a fallacy to think this forces you to play Ritual. While there are a lot of awesome plays you can do with Ritual it probably also increases inconsistency which is something a deck like this already suffers from.

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I used to agree but now I think that if you try to play a generic control/midrange black deck you're just too underpowered compared to what the rest of legacy is doing
It's not that CC3 permanents make Ritual necessary (do TNN decks need a Ritual to cast it? No) : it's having CC3 permanents in your wasteland/smallpox deck

I think that if you wanted to cut rituals and play basically mono-black Jund then that might be an ok idea, but I think your winrate then goes up by cutting smallpox and it becomes a different deck

Moon decks (also with no library manipulation) can play all their spells off mountains and sol lands but they still play SSG and Chrome Mox, maybe this does decrease consistency (e.g. compared to just playing more lands instead of these accelerators) but having any of the 3 drop permanents in play on turn 1 is enough of a power boost to be worth it.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

I think that if you wanted to cut rituals and play basically mono-black Jund then that might be an ok idea, but I think your winrate then goes up by cutting smallpox and it becomes a different deck

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Good post, just highlighting the key point: Smallpox is a lynchpin for the Pox deck. If Smallpox isn't good, then Pox isn't good (if we are being really honest with ourselves.) Jund is a very good comparison because it does what pox does (minus Smallpox) but a whole hell of a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Nightfrost

• Dark Ritual, yes or no? I think yes, required for explosive starts and to overcome mid-game lack of black sources
• Card draw, yes or no? I think yes, drawing off the top without card selection kills us in the long run, every time (competent Jace players will always use the fateseal on us, and it's usually game). A black Mirri's Guile would be the perfect solution
• Sinkhole, yes or no? I think no. I really like the card, it sometimes wins games in the first few turns, but most of the time it never seals the deal and most deck simply draw more than enough mana (cantrips, library manipulation, mana dorks, draw effects)
• Delve creatures, yes or no? Standard lists run Nether Spirit, Factories and Scrolls. While non-recurring creatures are anti-synergistic with our strategy, several decks are in severe trouble once a Tombstalker or Fiend hits the table. They are fast evasive clocks and dodge mana cost based removal

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Dark Ritual: YES Especially if you're a fan of Tomby and/or Cursed Scroll + Phyrexian Totem. People can use DR for 6 damage with a full Mishra's Factory army too! Turn 1 LtLH has won games single handedly as well. Her +1 not needing a target breaks foes in 2. It's perfect SB game 2 if your opponent can't turn 3 kill you.
Card Draw: No. Especially if you're a fanboy of the Veil. "But I need filtering!" you say, The recent top 8 Poxers ran no hard draw. I believe in spending less for more. Hymn to Tourach, Liliana (any), Cursed Scroll, Smallpox should be all the CA you'd need.
Sinkhole: Yes. I love the LD approach as I'm a sadist @ heart. :laugh: If your foe misses a land drop, which does occur. Killing Wasteland dodging basics is a +. Not to mention, I'm also a Nether Void advocate. It generates indirect card advantage by clogging your foe's hand.
Delve: hand-in-hand with Dark Ritual. Massive threats for low cost. If your foe doesn't attack your yard G1, which is very likely outside DRS, then you're golden.:cool:

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

@Uncle Istvan: "Aggression" and "card advantage" usually do not go together or at least not at a level of efficiency and power that is required in legacy. I think you will have to look for specific cards for these purposes. Speaking for myself, I stated numerous times in this thread that I consider Phyrexian Totem, Night's Whisper and also Phyrexian Arena the best options available for these roles. Totem somewhat alleviates monoblack's weakness against Planeswalkers, especially Jace and is a remarkably fast clock. Whisper is both card advantage and card selection/filtering, in my view it provides similiar functions which Top used to do for this deck. Arena may be debatable because it is indeed rather slow or counterproductive in some MU's but for a lot of decks it represents a serious threat (Miracles, Pile etc.).

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Thanks for the suggestions Erdvermampfa.
I have tried Phyrexian Totem before and was unimpressed, but I agree that he's a good finisher and I'll try again someday. I could also see myself running something like Phyrexian Arena, but I'm not really fond of Night's Whisper.

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Originally Posted by Nightfrost

Also, while I understand that Pox needs to be metagamed and has lots of viable options, we are far away from a common stock list. I still would like some opinions on the following points:

• Dark Ritual, yes or no? I think yes, required for explosive starts and to overcome mid-game lack of black sources
• Card draw, yes or no? I think yes, drawing off the top without card selection kills us in the long run, every time (competent Jace players will always use the fateseal on us, and it's usually game). A black Mirri's Guile would be the perfect solution
• Sinkhole, yes or no? I think no. I really like the card, it sometimes wins games in the first few turns, but most of the time it never seals the deal and most deck simply draw more than enough mana (cantrips, library manipulation, mana dorks, draw effects)
• Delve creatures, yes or no? Standard lists run Nether Spirit, Factories and Scrolls. While non-recurring creatures are anti-synergistic with our strategy, several decks are in severe trouble once a Tombstalker or Fiend hits the table. They are fast evasive clocks and dodge mana cost based removal

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I think that your question is really good, but in the end it all comes down to where you are and what you are trying to do: they are all viable options and you can't really choose between them without proper context. It's something you have to constantly reevaluate depending on your meta and playstyle.
That said, considering my list and my meta, this is what I think:

• Dark Ritual: Depends. Use it only if you have a decent amount of 3 or 4 drops. I run 3 copies because my list has 10 cards that benefit from it. If your list is built with a lower mana curve, I agree with Hardcore, running them will only give you weaker topdecks.
• Card draw: Yes. Extra cards enable you to keep the game under control until you find your finishers. I like engines (Karn, Phyrexian Arena) more than one shot cards (Night's Whisper, Sign in Blood).
• Sinkhole: No. Sometimes I miss the card when I face a lot of basic lands but, more often than not, sinkhole feels like a dead draw.
• Delve creatures: Depends. I run a single Necropolis Fiend because I play in a heavy aggro meta. If that wasn't the case, I would play something like Phyrexiam Totem to avoid my sac effects.

Could someone please collect the answers for us? I am on the phone right know so it is hard to do it myself.