@Smutko
You got the eybrow raise. Care to elaborate on some of your decisions going into this build?
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@Smutko
You got the eybrow raise. Care to elaborate on some of your decisions going into this build?
The common things to be blinking on my side with displacer were mangara or blade splicer, but generally it was much more common to be a pseudo-mom and/or messing with blockers and killing pyromancer tokens. Some other cute interactions include how great it is against opposing moms, and blinking an arbiter after they've paid to search. Generally speaking the ability to mess with their creatures was relevant enough to make it yet another lightning rod in lightningrod.deck. It seemed like the vast majority of the games were either (a) they run out of relevant interaction (i.e. removal) and die to whatever's left, where displacer is either demanding interaction or a great cleanup crew when they're spent or (b) they have the goods and you lose and it probably wouldn't have mattered what your creatures were.
Decisions going into the build:
(a) i don't have ports; i've played enough modern d&t to wonder if arbiter/ghost quarter could be viable in legacy. basically i'm trying to jam extra hatebears in the deck to double down on the prison facet of the deck. i want to drown my opponents in pseudo-thalias. plus i like the idea that i can still punish opponents that fetch basics early (similar to port) if they don't have that many basics. or even better, getting to freeroll path and ghost quarter against the no-basic million color delver decks is an amazing feeling. lastly, arbiter doesn't "get 'em" all that often, but it does challenge a common play pattern against d&t of leaving your fetches around until you absolutely need them, and instead forces people to choose lands to fetch before they necessarily know what sort of pressure their manabase is going to be under / what they're going to need later in the game, and makes it a bit easier to knock out a color in the mid-game. fetching early also makes late-game brainstorms slightly worse. it's also worth mentioning that people mess up arbiter on modo way more than they would IRL.
(b) why is thalia so good? because she punishes the cantrip-intensive deckbuilding of legacy. ethersworn canonist is another attempt at getting more copies of thalia, because they both turn the card brainstorm from the best card ever into kind of a headache. and then there are matchups where canonist is mega-thalia (storm, elves). i ended up squishing canonist into the main in a much earlier iteration of the deck that had thalia's lieutenant as a way to play nice with displacer, and while that card was horrible i liked the canonists enough to leave them.
(c) if my deck is all dinky creatures i'm probably going to be way behind against opposing creatures. if i'm playing arbiter i can't play stoneforge; what was i hoping to get out of having stoneforge in my deck? strength in creature matchups, largely via jitte. i'll just play more jittes to try to get the same effect. plus, you're not locked in to giving your opponent 1-2 turns warning when you're going to jitte them. it's also super satisfying to know you have more jittes in your deck when the first one gets blown up.
(d) looking to beef up my ability to play creature battles is how i ended up on displacer as well. if my creatures are all dying, it didnt matter what they were. if they're living, i want to have a displacer on the battlefield because he rules the roost.
(e) smattering of creatures that play super well with displacer (containment priest, blade splicer, mangara) because why not. i also just like mangara tricks period, especially in a ghost quarter build that is occasionally trying to pressure their basics.
(f) 3 aether vials is my default number and i know it's anathema to most people but i really really hate drawing aether vial on turn 6.
(g) the sideboard is horrible and needs a lot more work.
That's not great logic. I hate drawing lands when I'm flooded too, that doesn't mean you should play 10. Aether Vial is the most powerful card we play. 50% of our games are turbocharged and that's pretty much the reason why this deck is playable is that in a format with super tight resources. The biggest issue with playing this deck is that you don't always have access to it. I would play 8 if I could.
Eetai,Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
For the past months I have tried various builds (Bahra Chalice build, your WR List with a ton of PtE SB, OG Wescoe list from Louisville 2016), but I have found I liked your build the best. I feel that Magus is totally necessary to beat a lot of fair matchups where the usual white creatures just don't cut it. However, I also find myself wishing for Pontiff very often, given the amount of TNN, Elves and Young Peezy in the mix.
What is your current list at the moment? Have you considered adding Pontiff and if so how would you do it?
Will vouch that Eetai is best authority when it comes to working on Recruiter Taxes builds. He helped me when I was still working on mine awhile back.
I am probably running this in Vegas tomorrow:
4 Thalia
4 Sfm
4 Mom
3 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter
2 Revoker
2 Magus
2 Serra Avenger
1 Palace Jailer
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Vial / STP / 3 Equip
2 Cavern
3 Plains
2 Plateau
5 Fetch
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Port
2 Containment Priest
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Miran Crusader
2 Leonin Relic Warder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Path to Exile
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Pia/Kiran
I might swap a card or two, maybe have a 3rd Magus in the board. I have been on 4 Plains / 1 Plateau no Pia/Kiran for a while now, but I don't think the nu-Miracles deck is an auto-win and I wanted something for it. (It might actually be harder than old-Miracles cause they don't play a bunch of dead Counterbalances g1.)
If I were to add a Pontiff, I think I would add a Cavern, put the Pontiff in the SB and hope for the best. I don't think one card is worth the Scrubland. I think 'Scrubland gets Wastelanded and that sucks' happens in a lot more games in total than 'Can't cast Pontiff and that sucks'. If you do play a Scrubland, I think playing at least one Kambal is probably worth it too. That card is very good and people should play it more.
I agree on all counts here. I have played far too few reps and its easy to remember when you missed Pontiff, but its harder to remember when being wastelanded off Scrubland would have sucked. I also was going to try Kambal out but the guy who was going to sell it to me could not get it in time for the tournament on saturday so I decided to play OG monowhite instead. You changed a Plains for Plateau since last I checked though, you old fox ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
BTW I like the 3rd Magus on the board, I think in certain matchups its super important to drop one and way more impactful than any other card that could be subbed in (Eldrazi, 12 Post come to mind since I played both last time and really wanted the goddamn magus lol)
I don't think the comparison vial-to-lands is an honest one. The deck can function without aether vial, it can't function without lands. A land drawn on turn 6 can be very impactful to the game. An aether vial drawn on turn 6 has a much harder time mattering. I also think vial matters a lot more to a deck playing, for example, recruiter of the guard, which is basically a 6-drop in 2 installments and the mana saving is actually accelerating you, or flickerwisp, where flash really matters. If you have a mix of vial and lands and all of your creatures are vanilla, getting your 3 drop into play on turn 4 isn't breaking the game wide open. In my particular deck, almost all of the creatures have a static ability that you want in play as early and long as possible. when the option is curve mom into thalia or vial into vial in mom into vial in thalia... i don't think it's that clear cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
All of that said, I went ahead and put a 4th vial into the deck and it's been fine. Otherwise the main deck is the same, been messing with the sideboard, haven't been in love with what i've got, not sure what direction I want to take it. I could also see losing the arbiters and moving in a more traditional direction.
Had the morning off, went 4-1, 4-1, 3-2 in successive leagues. Losses were to 2 different pernicious deed decks, 1 reanimator, 1 miracles.
Ran my above list swapping a Crusader for a Prelate in the board. Dropped from the GP at 6-3 to play the limited GP instead tomorrow. 2 Byes + beat DnT, Grixis Delver, Aggro Loam, SnS, lost to Mono-Red Sneak (whatever), Eldrazi/MUD turn 1 Trinisphere (whatever) and Bahra-style 3 color taxes (he played well, it was a very close and interesting game 3, I was ahead but lost to Sword of War and Peace / a topdecked Flickerwisp.
I played pretty well all day, mostly just felt like I didn't win the matchup lottery, just played vs lots of Chalice decks and only 2 blue decks. That is part of what you sign up for when you play a meta deck though.
Good ol' classic D&T in the hands of Andrew Calderon made it to the top 8, then beat RUG Delver into top4, then beat Grixis Delver into Finals, and beat UR Delver to be championed!!!
Creature (27)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Serra Avenger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Sanctum Prelate
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Swords to Plowshares)
4 Ęther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
8 Plains
1 Sanctum Prelate
3 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Council's Judgment
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Path to Exile
As good as always! 22 Lands and no 4 drop mainboard.
Update:
D&T on the finals vs UR Delver!
D&T WON GP VEGAS, FOLKS! CONGRATZ ANDREW CALDERON!!!
Congrats to Andrew for a masterful set of games with DnT. Particularly proud of him for sticking with the mono white variant. I may not agree with all of his decisions, but he's obviously a great player and it's awesome to see DnT rise to the top!
Grats to Andrew Calderon!
Getting it down with mono-white.
22 lands and 8 plains seems ballsy.
Good for him!
Here's to hoping we can get in contact with him and see if he could provide a tournament report. Sounds like he faced Sneak and Show and Delver all tourney, which sounds pretty nice. I'm waiting and hoping for metagame breakdown so we can get a better picture.
Good old OG Monowhite D+T takes it all!
Congrats to Andrew, great finals!
Went 11-4 at GP Vegas w/ Bahra's Mardu taxes. Cut a plains for scrubland and cut 3 mindbreak for +1 Leonin Relic Warder, +1 Grafdiggers Cage, +1 Rest in Peace. Pretty good considering I faced Delver only once. My losses were to Shardless BUG (close games, many outs to lock it up), Reanimator (both games he goes Dark Rit Thoughtseize Entomb Reanimate on turn 1), Eldrazi (bad MU and I played like a complete scrub game 3), and Food Chain (awful MU). Would 100% run back the same 75. Willing to answer any questions as I've been streaming and playing the deck tons on MTGO
Thanks for responding and congrats on your success so far this year. What were your matchups overall? How do you feel this version of DnT compared to regular mono white or soldier stompy? Do you wish you had done anything differently? Who framed roger rabbit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Whole
I faced some BUG TrueName/Snap deck, UW Standstill, Shardless BUG (loss), BR Reanimator (loss), mono white DnT, Sneak and Show, Eldrazi (loss), some weird UW DnT/TNN deck, Mono Red sneak attack, Grixis Delver, and 2 Food Chain deck (1 loss)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marungo
Loved the power of the build and chalice was sweet. Magus underperformed but still seems good vs more normal matchups.Pia and Kiran was gas...I wonder if we could find a black equivalent, we could do BW with a few Ancient tombs. Soldier Stompy doesnt seem like a good deck. My friend played it and he says it is DnT for bad players. I wish i didnt punt my eldrazi match
Congrats!
I personally decided not to run DnT as I don't have enough experience with the deck and played Depths instead.
I did play BW taxes at a Legacy double up and went 3-1 beating Elves, Tezz, Miracles, losing to The Rock.
Anyone knows when the video's from gp vegas will be uploaded?
Top 8:Quote:
Irvin
Anyone knows when the video's from gp vegas will be uploaded?
1:03 Quarterfinals Lands vs Grixis Delver
1:37 Quarterfinals D&T vs Temur Delver
2:00 Semifinals Lands vs U/R Delver
2:48 Finals D&T vs U/R Delver
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/152366237
Hi all,
Do you have somewhere a good side list of each match up for Death and Taxes ? (It's not on Thrabenuniversity). I'd like for example to know if you guys keep the STP post side against Delver.deck, or if RIP + Council is enough. And what do you side off ?
Thx !
Why not Thraben university?
Side plans are not on Thraben University ^^ It would be an interesting post Medea !Quote:
Originally Posted by Plague Sliver
Nothing's set in stone here, but you can take this as a pointer: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/articl...edate=2-3-2017Quote:
Originally Posted by Hataraxy
@Hatarxy
I do have write ups for many matches that include sideboarding tips towards the bottom. I never post a sideboarding guide since my lists often change on a weekly basis, and because changing a card or two in your list will frequently change how you evaluate a card in a given matchup.
Against Grixis Delver, I tend to cut Revokers and Recruiters for any additional removal I have as well as some graveyard hate. RiP tends to be a Revoker on DRS that has the upside of also stopping Cabal Therapy flashback as well as delve cards. Recruiters are a touch slow against Delver; if you are resolving Recruiters and aren't way behind on board, you've probably already won. Council's Judgment is mediocre, but comes in sometimes depending on how your list and your opponent's lists line up. I'll bring in CJ if I know my opponent has things like Dread of Night or Null Rods that are must-answer cards.
Council's Judgment _definitely_ comes in. Dread of Night, Null Rod and True-Lame Nemesis have to be answered. It also doesn't hurt to have more removal and a catch-all answer as some Grixis Delvers have Grim Lavamancer, Izzet Staticaster, Umezawa's Jitte and whatnot in their SB. Having CJ compensates the lack of postboard Revokers in these situations where you're in the dark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
I add 5 cards: 2 Rest in Peace, 2 Council's Judgment and 1 Path to Exile / Orzhov Pontiff (sideboard's choose depending).
Re: the last two posts: my sig applies to sideboarding too. :tongue: Deciding what to take out is often the harder part.
This guide might still be of some tiny use, but is increasingly getting out of date.
http://cur.by/.dtside (based on running this list: http://cur.by/.dtlist)
I am curious what people are doing to deal with the new Miracles list. It is a much better matchup for them than when they had SDT. I felt like the matchup was terrible with them running mainboard solutions for our equipment in the form of Unexpectedly Absent, which used it be the key to winning the matchup pre ban. I think it is rather obvious that the Chalice builds are going to get a couple points here with them having so many 1 drops (Swords, Ponder, BS, Portent), but as mentioned before the UA art also a solution for this.
If people wanna discuss possible sideboard options or what axis we should be attacking them on. Having talked to one of the pilots involved in designed the deck attacking the mana early to slow down the mass cantriping and then presenting a clock before they stabilize. I'm thinking the SoWaP is gonna be helpful form the board again to get past those pesky mentor tokens and it deals a ton of them since they rely so much on CA. We do have easy cards to board out in Mono W (Revokers) and the splash builds (Magus of the Moon).
Thanks,
+1 to static. Over on the topless Miracles thread a guy called his GP Vegas D&T matchups virtual byes, but I've heard from D&T pilots that they consider Miracles just business as usual. Obviously both can't be true at once. But speaking of Chalice, what about returning to maindeck Prelate and setting it on 1? Can be protected with Mom and Flickerwisp (unlike Chalice), and can be more easily bounced if we need to attempt a 1-mana hate card.
How come when I play this deck I run into 5x elves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
The only reason the match-up might be better for them is because they don't have the dead weight of counterbalance (or multiple tops) anymore. But that still leaves them with the increased vulnerability to our hatred, as the loss of top makes it much more difficult manawise to find the proper answers.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
As previously, there's still no loliwin card against the archetype on our end, besides maybe cataclysm or armageddon. Just a bunch of annoying hate ursids (thalia, canonist, prelate, equipment, revoker on jace, flyers, palace jailer, planeswalkers, spirit ot labyrinth) that take them too much time and resources to answer while they're durdling cantrip into more and more cantrips.
This is also a match-up where it shines to play fetchlands. Yes, they can make you shuffle your card away with unexpectedly absent, but that's better than allowing them to make sick predict plays. That sword of fire and ice will just go back to be SFM'd out again, while with predict it's permanently gone. You're also less likely to die to a turn 1 portent you, which has lost me more than one game already.
In the end, I believe the match-up is more in their favor now, but at the steep cost of multiple other match-ups getting way worse because counterbalance is gone. Without top, the deck is also much harder and punishing to play and will therefore not become as prevalent as before.
hey guys, this is my first post here :)
lately, ive been playing this list:
Lands: 22
4 Ports
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
11 Plains
Creatures: 27
4 Thalia
4 Stoneforge
4 Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother
4 Serra Avenger
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Mirran Crusader
Non Creature: 11
4 Vial
4 Swords
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Jitte
Sb:15
2 Judgement
1 Gideon, Ally
2 rest in peace
2 faeri macabre
1 Path to exile
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Canonist
2 Containment Priest
1 Holy Light
thoughts:
manabase
since I only run 5 three drop creatures, I think 22 lands are fine (there are variants that run 10+ three drop creatures, where 23 lands are fine, so...). I want to play as many basics as i can, since more wastelands are played and blood moon is on the rise too. I think you need the 2 white mana. Since my deck is pretty redundant, cavern is not that important. in some scenarios, cavern is great, but it has also his donwsides.
rest of deck:
my plan with this version is to manascrew the opponent hard on the first few turns. i play 4 revokers as mana denial card 13-16 (next to ports, wastelands, thalia), since i often name deathrite, hierarch, or mana artifacts like LED, Moxen etc. With my many strong 2 drop creatures, i want to pressure my opponent out of the game quickly. Avenger is pretty strong right now (many delvers). Its the creature of my deck which gets fow or bolted the most, because if they dont answer it, they gonna lose the game pretty quickly. its also a good answer to true-name.
You see there are no recruiters, because often time its just too slow. there are more scenarios where i want a creature, that affects the board right away. i can see the strength of it (ex. with flickerwisp), but these scenarios doesnt show up that often. Otherwise its even not really a card advantage, since you only have a 1/1 added to the board (in cornercase scenarios, its the one creature you needed to equip, i know, but its rare). And i dont want more slow tutor creatures (4 Stoneforge) that affect the board slowly.
Then my 2 canonist are here to improve my combo matchups game 1. its still very solid against many other decks. its a bit weaker than prelate, but its only a 2 drop, which is important. so i moved prelate to the side.
what are your thoughts? any advice? what do you think about my sideboard?
Greets
Siracho
That's a lot of slots tied up to a creature that can't come down until t4.
That being said; expecting an uptick in DoNs, golgari charms, massacres and the like after the GP win makes anything with 2 (and espeically 3) points on the butt a lot more appealing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siracho
I agree that -1 Avenger +1 Crusader might make sense in that list, but I think I've been annoyed by multiple Thalias (1 in play, more in hand) more often than any number of Avengers in hand. If I want to play a creature on T2, it seems like I'm often wanting to play a Thalia or Revoker for disruption, or a Stoneforge if Mom's out and I need to get aggressive, or just Port if Vial's out and I want to control tempo.Quote:
Originally Posted by AsmodeusDM
So honest question: in a list without Cavern concerns, is running 3-4 Avengers really an issue? In what matchups would we really want a T3 Avenger (off Vial)? I can imagine it being good against a fast-flipping Delver, for example.
yes, but you have many creatures in this deck, which you can cast before turn 4. and as i said, in the first few turns i want to use my mana to screw my opponent anyways, while my vial is ticking up. and then, when i developed my mana, dropping multiple flickerwisps and avengers often take over the game, while my opponent hasnt much goiing, especiali with thalia and / or canonist.Quote:
Originally Posted by AsmodeusDM
i wanted to write about DoN and massaccre and stuff, but i forgot. this is obviously a huge upside of avenger too. Avengers are neraly unbeatebale with equipments, but are also very strong without them.
and with the mana denial plan d & t has, durdling around with recruiters and stuff is often no where you want to be. this gives the opponent time to rebuild after they made enough land drops.
Thank you so much for this link.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
Good info inside.
In your opinion have we the right meta, now, to bring in SoLaS?
I have some doubt about Gideon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Uhm...a different epilogue I suppose..
Hi all,
I finished 11-3-1 at GP Las Vegas for 70th position with this list:
MAINDECK:
4 x Mother of Runes
4 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
3 x Phyrexian Revoker
2 x Serra Avenger
4 x Flickerwisp
2 x Recruiter of the Guard
2 x Mirran Crusader
1 x Sanctum Prelate
4 x Aether Vial
4 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
4 x Wasteland
4 x Rishadan Port
10 x Plains
3 x Karakas
2 x Cavern of Souls
SIDEBOARD:
2 x Path to Exile
2 x Council's Judgment
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 x Palace Jailer
1 x Sanctum Prelate
2 x Containment Priest
3 x Ethersworn Canonist
2 x Rest in Peace
Matchups were as follows:
R1 -> BG Turbo Depths 2-1
R2 -> Mono-Red Sneak 2-0
R3 -> BG Midrange Depths 2-1
R4 -> UB Death's Shadow (Ben Lundquist) 1-2
R5 -> Burn 2-0
R6 -> 4C Control (Kevin King) 2-1
R7 -> 4C Loam (Martin Juza) 1-2
R8 -> Death & Taxes 2-1
R9 -> RG Lands 1-1-1
R10 -> BUG Delver 2-0
R11 -> UW Stoneblade 2-0
R12 -> Bant DeathBlade 2-0
R13 -> Merfolks 2-0
R14 -> UWR Stoneblade 2-0
R15 -> 4C Control (Oliver Tiu) 0-2
Day 2 was really hard full of Stoneblade decks but I managed to win them playing some great matches. Last round fighting for top32 I mulliganed 3 times and ended losing easily, but the deck was great all the weekend and I'd run the same 75. The week before the GP I doubted whether to play this list or something close to the last list of Thomas Enevoldsen. I'm not an Ancient Tomb fan and I opted for what I knew the most and was more comfortable with.
Great performance! I went 6-3 (2 byes from GPT and 1 win from no show). I had a hard time against Stoneblade (Esper and Bant Deathblade). I'm clueless as to what to do in the matchup and wanted to ask for advice. @Koke_MTG What was your strategy and overall gameplan? How did you win? My esper opponent had all the removal... and the Bant Opponent got TNN on the field quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koke_MTG
Also, I have questions for your sideboard. What matches did you bring 2nd prelate for?, and when did you board in the 2x Palace Jailer? Thanks!